Is Violence Ever Justified?

[hoosieranna]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1269934' date='May 10 2007, 09:32 AM']Yes. If somebody tried to rape me (and horribly someone did try that when I was very young) I would feel quite justified in kicking and punching and scratching and biting and generally inflicting whatever violence I could on the attacker, in order to get away. Violence is sometimes necessary, but its use must be governed by strict rules.

It should be:

The last resort (try all other options first),
Proportional (don't gun down a whole village if you're on the hunt for one mass murderer),
Controlled (make sure that you always know what you are doing - don't let yourself sink into a bloody kind of feeding frenzy).[/quote]

I absolutely agree. I will defend myself. I will not go around looking for people to hit because I'm in a foul mood.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='scardella' post='1270179' date='May 10 2007, 02:55 PM']The argument presented against violence was this, perhaps over-simplified:
It is never justified because violence does not respect the dignity of the other.[/quote]
Actually I think that violence can in some situations actually respect the dignity of the other.

We all make choices, and live with the consequences of those choices. If I hit a brick wall, I will feel pain. I choose the action, and deal with the consequent pain. God doesn't somehow change the nature of the wall in order to respect my dignity.

In the same way, self-defense in the face of grave threat of harm is justifiable in order to protect the nature of the person attacked, and that protection may bring about pain to the attacker. But the attacker made the choice to accept that pain and therefore to withhold it is to deny the dignity of the attacker in making the choice to attack.


(does that make any sense?)

[Socrates]

[quote name='scardella' post='1271106' date='May 11 2007, 09:36 AM']Their argument is that there are non-violent ways to do the same thing...[/quote]
Like what? Try to quickly sweet-talk the crazed attacker out of commiting his violent act, and if he doesn't listen . . . well, then too bad for your sister/girlfriend/wife/daughter??

That's the problem with that extreme pacifistic philosophy - it simply doesn't apply in real-word situations.

[scardella]

(BTW, in case you hadn't figured it out, I'm not the one who's a pacifist. Otherwise I think my arguments would be more passionate and probably better.)

The specific examples given were (and I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that they're true)
1. A woman in an alley was being followed/stalked. She had groceries or similar baggage with her. When the guy came up to her, she turned around and said something similar to "Oh, can you help me with these bags?" in a happy, cheery sort of tone. Confused, the guy helped her with her bags rather than attacked her.
2. During WWII in Germany, Jewish men married to Christian women were, for a time, given a reprieve and not brought off to the concentration camps. When the Gestapo finally did round them up in one town, all the wives went to the Gestapo headquarters and demanded their husbands back and they let the husbands go.

BTW, yes, Terra, your argument does make sense...

Also, I've invited my friend to join Phatmass to take up the debate. Hopefully he will, but I'm not sure of the reliability of his access to the internet.

Edited May 14, 2007 by scardella

[Socrates]

[quote name='scardella' post='1272728' date='May 13 2007, 08:35 PM'](BTW, in case you hadn't figured it out, I'm not the one who's a pacifist. Otherwise I think my arguments would be more passionate and probably better.)

The specific examples given were (and I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that they're true)
1. A woman in an alley was being followed/stalked. She had groceries or similar baggage with her. When the guy came up to her, she turned around and said something similar to "Oh, can you help me with these bags?" in a happy, cheery sort of tone. Confused, the guy helped her with her bags rather than attacked her.
2. During WWII in Germany, Jewish men married to Christian women were, for a time, given a reprieve and not brought off to the concentration camps. When the Gestapo finally did round them up in one town, all the wives went to the Gestapo headquarters and demanded their husbands back and they let the husbands go.

BTW, yes, Terra, your argument does make sense...

Also, I've invited my friend to join Phatmass to take up the debate. Hopefully he will, but I'm not sure of the reliability of his access to the internet.[/quote]
Know you're not the pacifist here - just refuting his arguments.

As to the examples given - yes, non-violent means of defense do exist, but they are not applicable in every case. Sometimes violent physical defense is the only practical option.

For instance, the "can you help me with your bags?"-type diversion would not work with most serious attackers. It would seem to only work with an attacker not really sure of himself. A similar approach would not likely work in the rape scenario I gave. And if it is tried and failed, what options are left?

Your friend's argument is all-round weak.

Edited May 14, 2007 by Socrates

[tate4242]

[quote name='scardella' post='1269931' date='May 10 2007, 09:26 AM']I got into a debate last night
Is violence ever justified?[/quote]

Shalom Scardella:

In my opinion when Yahushua/Jesus asked the Pharisees something to the effect of:
"Is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?"

I believe that he was partly referring to this situation faced by the Machabee Jews:


[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/45002.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/45002.htm[/url]
[quote]But they answered them not, neither did they cast a stone at them, nor stopped up the secret places, 37 Saying: Let us all die in our innocency: and heaven and earth shall be witnesses for us, that you put us to death wrongfully. 38 So they gave them battle on the sabbath: and they were slain with their wives, and their children, and their cattle, to the number of a thousand persons. 39 And Mathathias and his friends heard of it, and they mourned for them exceedingly. 40 And every man said to his neighbour: If we shall all do as our brethren have done, and not fight against the heathens for our lives, and our justifications: they will now quickly root us out of the earth.[/quote]

To me the implications of Christ's comment is that in a case where people are attacked they may defend themselves, even on the Sabbath and taking the life of somebody who is following evil orders is not murder and to do this on the Sabbath is not Sabbath breaking.

As a Hebraic Roots Christian who hopes to become Catholic I regard that I can work at many truly necessary forms of work even on the Sabbath.