Super Gods And Arch Villians

[jeffpugh]

Oy vey! I leave this thread and all the sudden GodChaser and the Carrdero start ripping eachother apart.... okay maybe it was just GodChaser... but anywho... lets see if I can fix some problems...

[quote name='carrdero' post='1281131' date='May 25 2007, 07:37 AM']Yes but the Bible has been wriiten over 1500 years ago. You can’t possibly think Satan hasn’t matured or evolved his offenses by now. Even I have reconciled my differences with some of my most stubborn adversaries and have incorporated practices to forgive freely so that both relationships could flourish in peace and harmony. Surely you are not saying that I am more magnanimous than GOD or Satan? If the teachings of GOD can sway billions of humans to rally to His side (in one lifetime), what qualities of GOD is holding Satan back from understanding that GOD could indeed be correct? What human knows GOD better than Satan?[/quote]

Well... the former bit about the bible is sort of true... the old testament has been oral tradition written down... and henceforth the writings of prophets, 'historic events', etc. The New Testament was [i]compiled[/i] around 325ish... that is, the books were used in the Christian communities (not all at once though... just some had John, others Luke, etc). Seeing that they were Orthodox, they were incorporated in the cannon. As for knowing if God is better than Satan, it is innate. Recall St Augustine (sorry if I got this one wrong folks...) "Our Hearts will not rest O Lord, until it rests in thee". Basically, no matter what you try and cram in the "God shaped hole in your heart", you will not fill it in life with worldly things. It is like trying to fill the Grand Canyon with marbles. Only an infinite being can fill the emptiness in your heart. God designed us this way.

[quote name='T-Bone' post='1281288' date='May 25 2007, 03:14 PM']It's not God that is the problem. Satan's decision to rebel is unrevokable.[/quote]

See post #9. I explained the fact that Satan is a pure spirit and makes decisions with his entire being. Period. Irrevocable in rebellion. As for us, we have a chance to reconcile. Anywho... the question of why Satan would do it is a mystery. It is a terrible mystery. All I can say.

[quote name='carrdero' post='1282199' date='May 27 2007, 04:47 PM']There may be a few other vaild possibilities to consider.

Satan has been trying to enlighten us about the tyranny of God and assisting humans towards the freedom from this murdering BEing since the Garden OF Eden but has been discredited and thwarted at every turn for centuries.

The Biblical events involving God and Satan did not happen or these events depicted some other type of spiritual or physical entities.

God may exist, be omnipotent and all-benevolent but is a neutral observer.

There is no such things as a holy war, demons, Satan or sin. God has no rivals and cannot be offended and we are accountable and responsible for our own actions and consequences.[/quote]

After GodChaser's response to this post, I gotta ask you if that was somewhat sarcastic in any way. To me, it seemed like it. If it was honest, I will be glad to try and approach it. Either way, I have to call GodChaser on losing his mind over this one. This thread is lacking charity in the utmost fundamental way.

[GodChaser]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1282662' date='May 28 2007, 02:40 PM']Then you want this thread and probably won’t find this topic rational enough to conceal your fanatical outbursts.
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=67597&st=40"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...67597&st=40[/url]
But you haven’t yet convinced me that:

Satan exists (or would you like me to simply misplace my hope that he does?)

Satan is evil (by the terms defined by most people)

Satan has done worse than the documented offenses that God has committed in the Old Testament. (the book that you continually challenge me to read and that you profess so much faith for).

Satan has never hurt me, in fact I have never met Satan and he certainly has never been fervent enough to tell me to p**s against a wall.
Who is this new friend? I think that I have many facets of understanding except that no one has been able to help me dispel these myths. Instead people keep hitting me over the head with the Bible. To everyone on Phatmass that reads this I HAVE READ THE BIBLE AND I AM FAMILIAR WITH THE TEXT. Now I have more questions.

If I had GOD’s truth what what I need faith for?
The questions and possibilities that I propose I do so of my own free will, I am not bound by faith.

Well I least I now understand where you get your anger from. If your Father knows the answers to these questions, I would certainly be willing to listen but from the retorts expressed in Post #40 you leave me no choice but to believe that you were either not taught well in His wisdom or that He is a bully too.
I never said that I agreed or accepted this theory I just offered it to Jeff as a valid possibility. It is not a belief that I originated but one that I would like concluded.

And exactly how does holding back enlightenment, understanding and knowledge keep us safe?

So be honest with me. Was it God that inspired you to write that tirade of epithets in Post #40 or did the devil make you do it?[/quote]
Carr,

I don't take kindly to anybody who will undermine the Christian Faith.

From your post, you are doing two things quite well, and it is exactly what I expect - first, you are lying about your purpose here. You say you are coming here to debate - I've heard that one many times over in my experience. Second, you're trying to deny that you are here to disrupt this forum.

You also demonize me.

For that, let the lord judge me between me and your Carr.

[quote name='"Romans 12:17-19' date=' KJV"']Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

[b]If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.[/b]

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.[/quote]

There can be no peace between me and you Carr.

To specifically answer your question about holding back enlightenment, the only enlightenment Satan offers is between Good and Evil. The more we learn from him, the more evil we become. He gave us the enlightenment to make weapons that can destroy entire cities. He gave us the enlightnement to create a holocaust of 50,000,000 babies aborted. He gave us the enlightenment that makes people slaves to sin and addictions beyond all imagining.

But God's rules, the 10 commandments will protect the human race. But the fact we no longer obey them, we are destroying ourselves now!

Edited May 29, 2007 by GodChaser

[chelsea]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1282831' date='May 28 2007, 10:08 PM']Carr,

I don't take kindly to anybody who will undermine the Christian Faith.

From your post, you are doing two things quite well, and it is exactly what I expect - first, you are lying about your purpose here. You say you are coming here to debate - I've heard that one many times over in my experience. Second, you're trying to deny that you are here to disrupt this forum.

You also demonize me.

For that, let the lord judge me between me and your Carr.
There can be no peace between me and you Carr.[/quote]

Hm. I dont know if this is just me, but I thought as Christians we are called to love and not judge?
While i havent gotten into the nitty-gritty of this post, i dont think Carr is trying to stir up anger. I think he's just come to this forum to get the catholic view of things.

I dont think it's very Jesus-like to say that there can be no peace between you, and that Carr demonizes you.

I could be wrong though. The last time I checked, MY Jesus called us to love and forgive.

Praying for you both.

[GodChaser]

[quote name='chelsea' post='1282945' date='May 28 2007, 09:17 PM']Hm. I dont know if this is just me, but I thought as Christians we are called to love and not judge?
While i havent gotten into the nitty-gritty of this post, i dont think Carr is trying to stir up anger. I think he's just come to this forum to get the catholic view of things.

I dont think it's very Jesus-like to say that there can be no peace between you, and that Carr demonizes you.

I could be wrong though. The last time I checked, MY Jesus called us to love and forgive.

Praying for you both.[/quote]
I can understand where you are coming from Chelsea.

Christians are called to love the people around us. But the bible says be at peace with all men if it is at all possible.

Remember, Jesus also called the Pharisees vipers and hypocrites - and that's Jesus. I don't think he was being pleasant, but he said those things with loving kindness though - because he wanted to see the Pharisees repent of their sins.

And I don't think Jesus was very gentle, when we overthrew the tax collector tables in the Temple, and then calling the people who did that a bunch of thieves, when he said you have turned the house of prayer into a den of thieves.

We all love the kind Jesus, but we forget, when some is truly unrepentant, he showed forth justice.

That is who I am trying to emulate. When I see someone who is lying, and Carr is lying, IMHO, than I am going to call him out on it. He is just putting forth a bunch of confusion, and when someone calls him out on it, he gets defensive.

[GodChaser]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1282662' date='May 28 2007, 02:40 PM']So be honest with me. Was it God that inspired you to write that tirade of epithets in Post #40 or did the devil make you do it?[/quote]

I thought you didn't believe the Devil was evil?

So what is it Carr?

Is he evil in your sight now, or isn't he?

[carrdero]

[quote]Godchaser writes: Carr,

I don't take kindly to anybody who will undermine the Christian Faith.[/quote]And what better way to defend this faith by lowering yourself to such standards.

[quote]Godchaser writes: From your post, you are doing two things quite well, and it is exactly what I expect - first, you are lying about your purpose here. You say you are coming here to debate - I've heard that one many times over in my experience. Second, you're trying to deny that you are here to disrupt this forum.[/quote]
Just a quick re-cap on the debating process. I post a comment; if you disagree with it, you post why and provide any knowledge or reasons to back up your claims. This goes back and fourth until the topic has reached a successful conclusion for either debator or an impasse is met. Discrediting my intentions, slandering my character and exalting your faith have absolutely no purpose or reason in the debate arena. If you do not have anything substantial to contribute, then bow out. I will think no more or no less of you. Asking me to have faith and be done with it expresses to me that you have exhausted your defense, and that your faith tires of this topic.

Edited May 29, 2007 by carrdero

[carrdero]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1282752' date='May 28 2007, 06:32 PM']After GodChaser's response to this post, I gotta ask you if that was somewhat sarcastic in any way. To me, it seemed like it. If it was honest, I will be glad to try and approach it. Either way, I have to call GodChaser on losing his mind over this one. This thread is lacking charity in the utmost fundamental way. [/quote]
Sarcastic, no. Despite all that has been written or foretold, all of these seem to still be valid possibilities. There are probably many more that I haven't included, researched or thought about.

[Jeff]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1282539' date='May 28 2007, 11:08 AM']Yes, I have something for you to debate about.[/quote]
Do you? Do you really?

You certainly haven't addressed the questions posed in this thread. It's easier to slander anyone who has the audacity to question.

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1282539' date='May 28 2007, 11:08 AM']There's this thing called faith. You just accept matters presented in the Bible by faith, that God is telling the truth.[/quote]

There's this thing called reason. You observe and anylyze the evidence. . .

Your faith has nothing to do with the Bible or God. It has everything to do with what you parents taught you. If you were raised by Muslims, you'd place your faith in the Koran and Allah. But you're in good company-
"Reason should be destroyed in all Christians."
-Martin Luther

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1282539' date='May 28 2007, 11:08 AM']You and your new friend seem to be on the Devil's good side, and that just grieves me in the holy spirit.[/quote]

You're grieved now? I thought you were mad. Typical Christian manipulation - fear and guilt. "Fear me and obey me, because, if you don't, I'll torture you for eternity. Pity me and obey me, because I'm a victim, and if you disobey me, you wound me."

I used to fear and pity God. But, even then, I never really felt awe or worshipful towards him. I just wanted to be on the winning team. I didn't want to suffer for eternity.

[Jeff]

Doh! Double post. My bad.

Edited June 1, 2007 by Jeff

[Jeff]

O.K., back to the topic . . .

[quote name='carrdero' post='1282199' date='May 27 2007, 04:47 PM']There may be a few other vaild possibilities to consider.

Satan has been trying to enlighten us about the tyranny of God and assisting humans towards the freedom from this murdering BEing since the Garden OF Eden but has been discredited and thwarted at every turn for centuries.[/quote]

As the Grand Poo-Bah of the Illuminati, I can confirm that this is exactly true.

Who lied in Eden? The text isn't ambiguous.

"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."
Genesis 2:17
But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Genesis 3:4-5
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"
Genesis 3:22

Anyone with an elementary understanding of psychology would know the command would only guarantee that Adam and Eve would eat it. Maybe the serpent was doing God's will. Was eating the fruit 'original sin' or an evolutionary leap?

[quote name='carrdero' post='1282199' date='May 27 2007, 04:47 PM']The Biblical events involving God and Satan did not happen or these events depicted some other type of spiritual or physical entities.[/quote]

As you know the Bible says very little about Satan and Lucifer. While Christians assume the serpent was Satan, Jews do not make that connection. In the O.T., Satan is just another angel.

[quote name='carrdero' post='1282199' date='May 27 2007, 04:47 PM']God may exist, be omnipotent and all-benevolent but is a neutral observer.

There is no such things as a holy war, demons, Satan or sin. God has no rivals and cannot be offended and we are accountable and responsible for our own actions and consequences.[/quote]

These last two scenarios are the most compelling, to me. That's one of the themes in, "Conversations With God", by Neale David Walsh. I'm not saying it's true, but, if any of you have read them, I'd be interested in your take on it.

"The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt."
-Bertrand Russell