God Conquers Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 For some reason this came to me while reading the Abortion and Punishment thread. Why do we punish people for sinning/committing crimes? Why not let God just sort'em out? How can we judge the length or severity of punishment in terms of the spiritual damage they have done to themselves? These are starnge questions, and I'm not sure why I'm asking them, but maybe they'll generate some debate. I think we should be telling people what is wrong, and protecting people from wrongdoing, but we clearly fail in our choices of punishment, because so many inmates are repeat offendres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 We have to punish criminals to keep other people safe and to keep them safe from themselves, if they are a danger to themselves as well. Punishment is also supposed to be a time of rehabilitation, so that criminals do not repeat their offenses. Our rehabilitation and punishment system must not be adequate because many people are repeat offenders. Also, you must factor in the backgrouns, economic status, and education of the offenders. Some people committ crime because that's all they know and some committ crimes out of necessity. As for sins, I agree with you that God should be the one to punish. But if these sins cause danger to others, then of course we should get involved. Either way, God is the final judge, and it is Him who we must answer to in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 You are using a lot of misconceptions. These are ideas that we think keep us safe, but do they really?? I mean, sure, prison is perfectly sutable for a serial killer who is insane and doesn't want to be rehabilitated. There are lots of murders that are one time offences and would be open to a program for help. The things we are "afraid of" are mostly social construction. For instance... Old ladies think they will get robbed, therefore we take most care in ensuring their safety... but old men get robbed far more than old women. Or... girls think they will get raped if they walk alone at night, but most rapes happen with aquiantances. Just some stuff to chew on in regards to punishment. Fact is, our criminal justice system isn't what it should be. In regards to the original question... I am a little confused. Are you asking about how the Church should judge people or the criminal justice system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 Why do we punish people for sinning/committing crimes? Why not let God just sort'em out? I doubt you’ll find any culture that simply lets God sort things out ... much too close to anarchy for most people's taste. God empowers human governments to make law and enforce it, however imperfectly that is done. By punishing people for sinning or committing crimes, we protect some degree of order in society. On another level, by enforcing law (punishment) we reinforce the values of our culture, e.g. intentional premeditated murder carries the most severe of penalties because we value human life. How can we judge the length or severity of punishment in terms of the spiritual damage they have done to themselves? Not quite sure what you’re asking here … I'll take a guess and say we mete out punishment based on the damage people have done to persons and property, not to their own spirits. I think we should be telling people what is wrong, and protecting people from wrongdoing, but we clearly fail in our choices of punishment, because so many inmates are repeat offendres. I don’t know that recidivism rates alone are indicative of a failure of the choice of punishment. I would agree that there needs to be a stronger emphasis on rehabilitation in order to reduce recidivism rates, and it would be great to find more cost-effective ways to address crime, but I for one am glad for the modicum of order our current system imposes. Things in the judicial system aren’t great, by any means, but they aren’t totally awful, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 Alot of the criminal justice system was originally based on religious belief wasn't it? In the US and the UK the commandments influenced the origins of the law, though of course it has evolved and continues to do so...for better or for worse.... There is some evidence that suggests the idea of criminals being accountable to communities and having to confront the victims of their crime has a profound effect. I know in the UK there is considerable interest in the way this is developing in New Zealand. Clearly the death penalty is not a deterrant since murder rates have not dropped significantly in the US compared to countries where the death penalty does not exist - though of course gun crime may well account for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 some where there is a huge thread on this very topic, but I don't remember which forum that was on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PedroX Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 GC, Great questions. Several (20?) years ago, the great American psychologist Carl Meniger wrote a book titled "Whatever Became of Sin?". In this book he traced the thought process in our societies as the Church(Catholic and Protestant) abdicted its role as moral enforcer and gave that role to the state (criminalizing moral failure) then, he shows how society forced the state to give that role to the psychological profession and made moral failure a sickness. Fascinating read, and I highly recommend it. The abortion and punishment thread also spawned some thoughts in my own mind about natural law and culpability. Don John appears to be right in his insistence on the principle of forfeiture if abortion became illegal. However, I started wondering about culpability in the here and now. How culpable are woman who have been spoon fed pro-choice nonsense for 30+ years? I personally want to assign some level of culpability, but am not sure I can, or how much. Any thoughts? peace.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted January 31, 2004 Author Share Posted January 31, 2004 That's along what I was thinking Pedro. How can we place full responsibility on the women, when in many cases their minds are so twisted by the culture and pressures of an "unwanted" pregnancy. However this belongs on the other thread. As for my wuestions, I was just wondering what people thought. It's difficult to wrap my head around our criminal justice system (secular) and the spiritual ramifications of crime. Are people repeat offenders because they have been unable to ask God forgiveness for their crimes? Also, when the sniper ordeal was going on I had an idea. That was so obviously a case of spiritual warfare, of the influence oof the devil on those people that I thought there were better ways of catching the criminals. If a group of Police Officers began using spiritual warfare, praying, fasting, etc. in addition to their investigative work, I bet we would catch criminals faster, and prevent further crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 I think it's important to go back to the basis for governement and society:the family. So why do we punish in the family? Well, I know my parents would say that when I was younger they punished me so that I knew that my actions had consequences. I think proper punishment instills in a person to recognize that their actions affect other people as well as themselves. If the punishment is done properly, then, hopefully, when one gets to a stage in thinking beyond "what happens to me if I do this" and begins to think "how does this affect people as a whole if i do this?" Punishment in the form of detainment, such as prisons, protects society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 Clearly the death penalty is not a deterrant since murder rates have not dropped significantly in the US compared to countries where the death penalty does not exist - though of course gun crime may well account for this. I think the death penalty can be a deterrant, think of the cases where people say yes I will plead guilty as long as you don't go to trial and ask for the death penalty. the person then gets 20 to life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 public executions are a deterent. and if we were too publically execute people it would be easier to see to it that the church's teachings regarding the death penalty were obeyed--it would be used much less frequently. yes i did really just endorse public executions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 well I agree , if one is going to execute, it should be in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted February 1, 2004 Author Share Posted February 1, 2004 What's the point of killing in private? Its silly, it teaches no one a lesson. We have no proof that the person is dead, we don't see them die. Public execution is gruesome, but pretty effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 What are grounds for the death penalty in your opinion then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted February 1, 2004 Author Share Posted February 1, 2004 Oh, I dunno, they'd have to be pretty severe for me to accept it. The death penalty is illegal in my country. I was just saying, if you have it, it better be public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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