Budge Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 (edited) as you all know the Pope is going to be in Brazil this week, a lot of this work as quoted on Zenit and more, is to stop the tide of SECTS {Christian churches} from taking over. They plan to "celebrate" using the Virgin of Aparcedia wooden statue and much of the proceedings are centered around this statue... [mod]Budge, we [b]still[/b] do not link to your blatantly hateful anti-Catholic forum. -Raphael[/mod] This was posted by another poster on my board, he is ok with me quoting him. I would like all the Catholics to answer the last question here: the one in bold towards the bottom... [quote]Imagine you are a Brazilian, many of them live in severe poverty, life is very difficult but.... Instead of having access to God, who made the universe to approach the throne boldly as a believer in Jesus Christ, you are given barbie dolls, trinkets and religious showtimes that do nothing for you but provide brief "entertainment"[/quote][b] You mean like THIS?[/b] [quote]the Catholic Church doesn't present immediate relief to its people," Muniz said. [b]They present idols and saints, things that aren't in the Bible[/b],whereas we are a social church. Our God is a living God.[/quote] [img]http://lh4.google.com/image/EutychusSleeper/Rj-aYoyuOUI/AAAAAAAAAJk/rM5TQPZ2r7E/s144/100_9423.jpg[/img] [quote]Psalms 115:1 Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake. [b]2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?[/b] 3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. 4 [u]Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands. 5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: 6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: 7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat. 8 T[i]hey that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.[/i][/u][/font] 9 O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he is their help and their shield. .[/quote] [img]http://br.celam.info/components/ebygallery/Vista-Interna/original/100_9415.jpg[/img] [b]Good grief Catholics..... LOOK AT THAT THING. Can any of you, in your heart of hearts, think that spending MILLIONS of dollars serving...THAT THING, is anything BUT gross idolatry?[/b] [quote]8 [b]They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.[/b][/quote] Is the bible lying here? [b]Do YOU "trust in that wooden idol?" Should your leaders trust in that THING, can any Christian HONESTLY say that Jesus would approve of this travesty and mockery?[/b] That THING is gross, it is a GROSS carving, the crown is GROSS, this entire event it GROSS and your leaders are leading YOU into the pit, along with themselves. Do you REALLY want to travel that path? CAn you say to God someday, facing Him, that YOU were not warned, over and over now? Edited May 8, 2007 by Raphael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathoholic_anonymous Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Budge, as we have explained to you dozens of times, Catholics do not have 'idols' and nor do we worship them. 'That thing', as you call it, is an artistic representation of our Blessed Mother, in the same way that the paintings I used to make of my mum when I was younger were artistic representations of my own earthly mother. My dad used to take one of those paintings with him whenever he had to be away from home for a substantial amount of time, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't praying to it. The wooden statue is representative. It does not possess power in its own right. Again, for the dozenth time, I point out to you that the use of religious images is [i]not forbidden[/i] in Christian worship - or else God would not have commanded those Israelites to adorn the Ark of the Covenant with gold cherubs (that's right, [b]gold[/b], one the most precious metals the world has to offer). When I pointed this out to you the last time, you made the feeble excuse that God's cherubs were OK because they were 'facing inwards'. Err... [quote]the Catholic Church doesn't present immediate relief to its people[/quote] Is Muinz making an infallible statement? He should try making it to the poverty-stricken people in the Third World. The Catholic Church is the biggest non-governmental provider of relief and aid on earth. And if Muinz means spiritual relief, I am afraid that I find the heavenly liturgy far more spiritually satisfying than a social club that has a few hymns and Bible readings thrown in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathoholic_anonymous Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Budge, as we have explained to you dozens of times, Catholics do not have 'idols' and nor do we worship them. 'That thing', as you call it, is an artistic representation of our Blessed Mother, in the same way that the paintings I used to make of my mum when I was younger were artistic representations of my own earthly mother. My dad used to take one of those paintings with him whenever he had to be away from home for a substantial amount of time, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't praying to it. The wooden statue is representative. It does not possess power in its own right. Again, for the dozenth time, I point out to you that the use of religious images is [i]not forbidden[/i] in Christian worship - or else God would not have commanded those Israelites to adorn the Ark of the Covenant with gold cherubs (that's right, [b]gold[/b], one the most precious metals the world has to offer). When I pointed this out to you the last time, you made the feeble excuse that God's cherubs were OK because they were 'facing inwards'. Err... [quote]the Catholic Church doesn't present immediate relief to its people[/quote] Is Muinz making an infallible statement? He should try making it to the poverty-stricken people in the Third World. The Catholic Church is the biggest non-governmental provider of relief and aid on earth. And if Muinz means spiritual relief, I am afraid that I find the heavenly liturgy far more spiritually satisfying than a social club that has a few hymns and Bible readings thrown in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted May 8, 2007 Author Share Posted May 8, 2007 [quote] Budge, as we have explained to you dozens of times, Catholics do not have 'idols' and nor do we worship them. 'That thing', as you call it, is an artistic representation of our Blessed Mother, in the same way that the paintings I used to make of my mum when I was younger were artistic representations of my own earthly mother. My dad used to take one of those paintings with him whenever he had to be away from home for a substantial amount of time, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't praying to it. [b]The wooden statue is representative. It does not possess power in its own right[/b].[/quote] It goes far beyond an artistic representation when it is dressed up, and paraded around. I dont light candles to my paintings or put them in parades or put new gold crowns on them. [img]http://extremecatholic.blogspot.com/images/crowns-aparecida.jpg[/img] [i] Vatican envoy Cardinal Eugenio Araujo Sales ® is assisted by Archbishop Raimundo Damasceno Assis as he places a new crown on the statue of the Virgin of Aparecida, one of Brazil's most important Catholic icons, 160 kms north of Sao Paulo, September 8, 2004. Tens of thousands of Brazilians attended the 100th anniversary of the first coronation of the Virgin by Portugal's Princess Isabel, as a new crown was placed in honor. [/i] [b]As for it "not possessing power in its own right" havent you read the story of Aparcedia? [/b][b] João Alves threw his net into the water and brought back a statue of Our Lady of Conception, but the head was missing. He threw his net in again and soon reeled in the head of the statue. After that, according to the legend, the fish arrived in abundance for the three humble fishermen and their nets were full.[/b] [quote] Again, for the dozenth time, I point out to you that the use of religious images is not forbidden in Christian worship - or else God would not have commanded those Israelites to adorn the Ark of the Covenant with gold cherubs (that's right, gold, one the most precious metals the world has to offer). When I pointed this out to you the last time, you made the feeble excuse that God's cherubs were OK because they were 'facing inwards'. Err... [/quote]Do you know the name of those cherubs? They were mere decoration. No Jew ever put a crown on top of their head or paraded them around. [quote] Is Muinz making an infallible statement? He should try making it to the poverty-stricken people in the Third World. The Catholic Church is the biggest non-governmental provider of relief and aid on earth. And if Muinz means spiritual relief, I am afraid that I find the heavenly liturgy far more spiritually satisfying than a social club that has a few hymns and Bible readings thrown in.[/quote] I wonder what the poor must think of the millions of dollars spent on this hunk of wood....when they live in severe squalor. [img]http://www.culturabrasil.org/imagens/aparecida.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 Budge, adoration, by nature, must be intended as adoration. There are many different things that could be going on when you see a man look at a woman. He could be gazing into her eyes as her husband, he could be lusting over her, he could be trying to get her attention. The fact is that you can only tell what he's doing by knowing his intention. Putting clothing on statues is not intrinsically a form of adoration or even veneration...it could have many different purposes. For you to assume that it is adoration is a judgment of the heart of another person, which Jesus explicitly condemns. In this case, they dress a statue in order to honor the memory of a saint or event, and by honoring the saint, they honor God, because a king is glorified in his knights and maidens. You only see what you want to see, but you do not see what you refuse to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1267938' date='May 8 2007, 09:56 AM']I dont light candles to my paintings or put them in parades or put new gold crowns on them.[/quote] And as a result we should not do so either right? Another example of the religion of Budge. Everyone must do what Budge does... Honestly if you are not Catholic then I (and I would hope no other Catholic) don't care what you do or don't do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 (edited) [quote name='Budge' post='1267938' date='May 8 2007, 10:56 AM']I wonder what the poor must think of the millions of dollars spent on this hunk of wood....when they live in severe squalor.[/quote]I wonder what the ancient Israelites thought when so much of their precious metals were spent in the construction of a place of worship. How much of their precious metals? Glad you asked:[quote name='Exodus 38:24-29']All the gold used in the entire construction of the sanctuary, having previously been given as an offering, amounted to twenty-nine talents and seven hundred and thirty shekels, according to the standard of the sanctuary shekel. The amount of the silver received from the community was one hundred talents and one thousand seven hundred and seventy-five shekels, according to the standard of the sanctuary shekel; one bekah apiece, that is, a half-shekel apiece, according to the standard of the sanctuary shekel, was received from every man of twenty years or more who entered the registered group; the number of these was six hundred and three thousand five hundred and fifty men. One hundred talents of silver were used for casting the pedestals of the sanctuary and the pedestals of the veil, one talent for each pedestal, or one hundred talents for the one hundred pedestals. The remaining one thousand seven hundred and seventy-five shekels were used for making the hooks on the columns, for plating the capitals, and for banding them with silver. The bronze, given as an offering, amounted to seventy talents and two thousand four hundred shekels.[/quote]It is interesting that much of this was "off limits" to everyone except a few priests, in contrast with Catholic churches which are open to all. What a waste...to give the best to God. Then again, who made the fuss about anointing Our Lord with expensive perfume? (John 12:1-8) Someone had set a precedent for Budge. Edited May 8, 2007 by Mateo el Feo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted May 8, 2007 Share Posted May 8, 2007 or, budge could answer old threads instead of new spam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted May 9, 2007 Author Share Posted May 9, 2007 Rev speaking of unanswered threads, I wrote you a 10 paragraph+ response that NEVER got answered. Its probably fallen off the board already. [quote] Putting clothing on statues is not intrinsically a form of adoration or even veneration...it could have many different purposes[/quote]. What is that? Most adults out grow dressing up dollies, I know I was 12 when I dressed my last Barbie,. [quote] For you to assume that it is adoration is a judgment of the heart of another person, which Jesus explicitly condemns. In this case, they dress a statue in order to honor the memory of a saint or event, and by honoring the saint, they honor God, because a king is glorified in his knights and maidens.[/quote] When God gave those commandments, of not serving statues, He didnt put disclaimers on it, such as you can do it if your heart is in the right place. [quote]You only see what you want to see, but you do not see what you refuse to see.[/quote] I see a bunch of people parading around with a stupid doll, instead of preaching the gospel and Jesus Christ. Better be careful with those Temple comparisons, Synagogue of Satan and all that. The Jews provided for their poor. They didnt leave them in squalor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Gone Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 [quote name='Budge' post='1268439' date='May 8 2007, 09:07 PM']Rev speaking of unanswered threads, I wrote you a 10 paragraph+ response that NEVER got answered. Its probably fallen off the board already.[/quote] You replied with a 12 page rant that had no form or reason to it. You refused to address the points I made and rather split off on tangents and mudslings that were neither productive to read, answer or continue with. If you want to re-open the convo I would more than glad to. But there was very little to work with in that rant. Now that school is out, I will see if I can dig through it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathoholic_anonymous Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 [quote]Most adults out grow dressing up dollies, I know I was 12 when I dressed my last Barbie,.[/quote]I kiss the photo of my parents every night before I go to sleep, after I have prayed in thanksgiving for them. And on the anniversary of my grandma's death I hang some flowers on her photo. I'm not 'playing with dollies' but symbolising my love and respect for my family in a way that humans [i]naturally do[/i]. Furthermore (as I have already told you) to be an iconoclast is to deny the humanity of Christ. Strict Muslims (again, as I have already told you) are at least consistent in their iconoclastic views - they won't even have photos of their family or pictures of animals in their houses. Does your horror of images extend to this, Budge? If it doesn't, you are being extremely inconsistent. [quote]I see a bunch of people parading around with a stupid doll, instead of preaching the gospel and Jesus Christ.[/quote] Mercifully God's vision is broader. [quote]When God gave those commandments, of not serving statues, He didnt put disclaimers on it, such as you can do it if your heart is in the right place.[/quote]Catholics don't serve the statues themselves, as we have explained to you oh so many times. At least you haven't tried to make any feeble excuses for the cherubs on the Ark of the Covenant this time, which is a mercy. [quote]Better be careful with those Temple comparisons, Synagogue of Satan and all that.[/quote] Your synagogue of Satan argument was soundly refuted the last time you began accusing Catholics of idolatry. Do you seriously believe that the decor of the old Temple, which God [i]specifically commanded[/i] the Jews to design, became Satanic with the appearance of Jesus? Is God really that fickle? [quote]The Jews provided for their poor. They didnt leave them in squalor.[/quote] [size=5][b]The Catholic Church is the biggest non-governmental provider of relief and aid in the entire world.[/b][/size] I very rarely resort to SCREAMING CAPITALS and [size=5]big fonts[/size] as I believe that it is possible to make your point quite eloquently using good English and standard text. But seeing as you saw fit to ignore what you have now been told on several occasions, I have DECIDED to start SPEAKING YOUR LANGUAGE and USE CAPITALS at every opportunity. Maybe I will also start copying and pasting cartoons and using them as authoritative proof for my assertions. (When that happens, will some kindly Phatmass soul please send for the exorcist?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Budge Posted May 9, 2007 Author Share Posted May 9, 2007 [quote]I kiss the photo of my parents every night before I go to sleep, after I have prayed in thanksgiving for them. And on the anniversary of my grandma's death I hang some flowers on her photo. I'm not 'playing with dollies' but symbolising my love and respect for my family in a way that humans naturally do.[/quote]What is this about kissing photos and Catholics? I use the telephone and go visit the person... [quote] Furthermore (as I have already told you) to be an iconoclast is to deny the humanity of Christ. Strict Muslims (again, as I have already told you) are at least consistent in their iconoclastic views - they won't even have photos of their family or pictures of animals in their houses. Does your horror of images extend to this, Budge? If it doesn't, you are being extremely inconsistent.[/quote] Muslims have it wrong too. Its supposed to be about religious worship and images. [quote] QUOTE I see a bunch of people parading around with a stupid doll, instead of preaching the gospel and Jesus Christ. Mercifully God's vision is broader. smile.gif [/quote]Im glad the true apostles preached the gospel and didnt take around silly dolls... [quote]The Catholic Church is the biggest non-governmental provider of relief and aid in the entire world.[/quote] Maybe so... All that fornication with kings, well showing up empty handed doesnt exactly win the princes over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 It's hard to pick up the telephone when one's grandmother is dead, [b]Budge[/b]. Have some respect for those who passed on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 (edited) [quote name='Budge' post='1268439' date='May 8 2007, 08:07 PM']speaking of unanswered threads[/quote] +cough+[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=59911"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=59911[/url]+cough+ Edited May 9, 2007 by CatholicCid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotusTuusMaria Posted May 9, 2007 Share Posted May 9, 2007 [center]J.M.J.[/center] Images of Jesus and the saints have been used for decoration and devotional purposes since the beginning of Christianity. Today only the most uninformed person gives credence to the accusation that Catholics worship these statues and or pictures. [b][u]Several hundred years ago, the Council of Trent, exaplined the practice perfectly: "The images of Christ, the Virgin Mother of God, and of the other saints are kept and honored in churches not because it is believed that there is any divinity or power in these images, or that anything may be asked of them, or any faith be put in them. The honor shown to them is really being given to the persons who they represent. Through these images which ew kiss, and before which we bow with bared heads, we worship Christ, and not the saints whose likness they display."[/u][/b] Even many Catholics do not realize that the church is very careful about what images are allowed for public veneration. All pictures or sculptures must be approved by the bishop or other proper authority. The reasons most Protestant denominations do not allow images in their churches are varied. One is that in the early Protestant Reformation tyhere was much misunderstanding about the meaning of honoring images of Jesus and the saints. "No statues" became a symbol of protest against the church of Rome. Now, it has involved into Protestants (because of their lack of understanding about the early Church and even their own protestant "reformers") truly believing that Catholics worship these statues, which in fact is false. [b]But God does not prohibit image-making altogether. In Ex 25:18-19, God commands Moses to make statues of angels (cherubim). In Num 21:8 God tells Moses to make a bronze serpent (seraph), which the Israelites had to look upon in order to be healed. The Jews also used many carved images in the Temple, including cherubim, oxen, lions, palm trees, and flowers (1 Kings 6 and 7) The rejection of statues and other images in Church devotional life is a Christian heresy known as "iconolasm." It was first seen in Christianity in the eigth century when the wicked Emperor Leo the Isuarian, influenced by the new religion of Islam, began attacking the use of statues and icons in the CHurch. In the Second Council of Nicea in AD 787, the Church condemned this heresy. This heresy then did not resurface in Christianity until the "Reformation". [/b] God bless you, Budge! In Jesus and Mary, Marie Budge, I'm getting an unkind and angry vibe from you. Be happy and sweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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