Jehovah Witnesses' Against Military Service

[Paladin D]

I used to work with someone who is a Jehovah Witness, nice guy and we got along fine. When we weren't goofing off, we would have discussions about our religious beliefs during the slow hours of the day. When I recently left my job on good terms, I made it aware to everyone that I was intending to enlist in the Army later this year. He wrote me a letter wishing me the best in my life, but was strongly opposed to military service. Not sure if any of you have encountered this before, or were even made aware of their opposition towards military service but, apparently the main reason why they are opposed to it is due to their belief that Satan is the "prince" of this world and of human influence in world governments; thereforce, it is useless/wrong to waste time serving a corrupt governmental power. To them, God has reign over the Earth but, He has given permission for Satan to rule over the kingdoms over the Earth. They have quotations of Scripture that they use to back up their claims, which I'm not in the mood to sight unless someone really wants me too.

He's overall a good guy that is concerned for me, but yet again we have vastly different beliefs on several issues. I'm curious on what are your thoughts concerning this viewpoint, and am looking forward to any Catholic perspective when it comes to military service and defending one's country. Thanks guys.


[b]EDIT:[/b] I just got back from Mass and just finished reading the letter, so I haven't had time to look up anything in Scripture, my Catechism, or existing articles about this specific issue.

Edited May 6, 2007 by Paladin D

[Katholikos]

[i]Answering Jehovah's Witnesses[/i] by Jason Evert is a good resource. Available at Catholic Answers, www.catholic.com.

QUOTE

[i]The allegiance of the Jehovah's Witness is to God, not to man. A person is to serve in one army -- Jehovah's -- and is to follow only his leadership. For this reason, saluting the flag of any nation is idolatry. One is not to vote, run for office, and especially not to enter military service. Jesus said to turn the other cheek, not to kill nation after nation. All war is displeasing to God, if everyone in the world were a Jehovah's Witness, there would be no more war.[/i]

[i] Let God be True ([/i]Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, 1932, 243).

END QUOTE

Evert says it does not follow that if everyone were a JW there would be no more war. Only if everyone lived by the Watchtower doctrine on war would there be no war, but the same could be said if everyone were Catholic and lived by the Ten Commandments.

And Evert continues, one gaping hole in the JW argument . . . is that the Bible and Jesus never condemned war as always wrong. Christ's command to turn the other cheek was a personal exhortaton for how the Chrisitian should deal with personal injury; it was not a denial of the government's freedom or duty to protect its citizens from unjust foreign aggression. The Lord had several encounters with soldiers, but he never instructed them to abandon their occupation. In Mt 8:10, he praises a Roman Centurion (the equivalent of an army captain) for his faith. But he didn't tell him to get out of the military!

The NT does not support the Watchtower's position, and the OT is replete with battles being fought at the command of God.

Evert covers every JW argument, and his book is an excellent resource for anyone who encounters JWs and wants to know their teachings. And JWs seem to knock on everybody's door. They especially target Catholics. Know-nothing ex-Catholics make up a majority of the JW membership.

Likos

[desertwoman]

Yeah. There is a film from PBS about the JWs. We showed it at the library, but I had a test that day. Try and peep it on your local PBS station.

[Paladin D]

Thanks for the responses guys.

I also found some interesting Scripture passages about it here: [url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/just_war.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/just_war.html[/url] (Bottom of page). If we have no one to defend our freedom to preach the Good News, how will we be able to even preach peace?

Edited May 6, 2007 by Paladin D

[Katholikos]

BTW, Paladin, my nephew was in the Army. Says he would go back in a heartbeat. He did a tour in Iraq. Basic was tough, but after that he really liked it and sometimes wishes he had stayed in.

Likos

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1265932' date='May 6 2007, 01:26 PM']BTW, Paladin, my nephew was in the Army. Says he would go back in a heartbeat. He did a tour in Iraq. Basic was tough, but after that he really liked it and sometimes wishes he had stayed in.

Likos[/quote]

I've been told practically the samething from most veterans of all branches. You have job security, some good benefits, and gain a lot of experience that not only shapes you for the better physically, but mentally as well. Right now I'm looking to do several years then head into the civilian sector. However, if I fall inlove with it to the point I could see myself doing that line of work for 20 or so years, so be it.

Edited May 6, 2007 by Paladin D

[White Knight]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1265905' date='May 6 2007, 12:05 PM'][i]Answering Jehovah's Witnesses[/i] by Jason Evert is a good resource. Available at Catholic Answers, www.catholic.com.

QUOTE

[i]The allegiance of the Jehovah's Witness is to God, not to man. A person is to serve in one army -- Jehovah's -- and is to follow only his leadership. For this reason, saluting the flag of any nation is idolatry. One is not to vote, run for office, and especially not to enter military service. Jesus said to turn the other cheek, not to kill nation after nation. All war is displeasing to God, if everyone in the world were a Jehovah's Witness, there would be no more war.[/i]

[i] Let God be True ([/i]Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, 1932, 243).

END QUOTE

Evert says it does not follow that if everyone were a JW there would be no more war. Only if everyone lived by the Watchtower doctrine on war would there be no war, but the same could be said if everyone were Catholic and lived by the Ten Commandments.

And Evert continues, one gaping hole in the JW argument . . . is that the Bible and Jesus never condemned war as always wrong. Christ's command to turn the other cheek was a personal exhortaton for how the Chrisitian should deal with personal injury; it was not a denial of the government's freedom or duty to protect its citizens from unjust foreign aggression. The Lord had several encounters with soldiers, but he never instructed them to abandon their occupation. In Mt 8:10, he praises a Roman Centurion (the equivalent of an army captain) for his faith. But he didn't tell him to get out of the military!

The NT does not support the Watchtower's position, and the OT is replete with battles being fought at the command of God.

Evert covers every JW argument, and his book is an excellent resource for anyone who encounters JWs and wants to know their teachings. And JWs seem to knock on everybody's door. They especially target Catholics. Know-nothing ex-Catholics make up a majority of the JW membership.

Likos[/quote]


This is sad though, see I used to have some debates a few years ago about these types of things with my Jehovah Wintess buddies, and we actually compared our versions of scripture you'd be amazed at how twisted it really is, some Old Testment and New Testment verses in many books are just trimmed, erased, replaced, etc etc, So if you were to try to use the Bible they'd actually find out some way to counter you unfortunately, even some of the most "WELL Known" scriptures by majority Protestants are twisted to fit the benefitial usage for Jehovah Witnesses. Its mind bugaling how they see things.

[Maggyie]

I believe JWs also disapprove of the Pledge of Allegiance and saluting the flag, etc.

[jeffpugh]

I think that was said... they don't celebrate holidays either... seriously, I don't know how those people keep their "faith"... it sounds like it drags ya down.. brainwashing mayhaps?

Edited May 6, 2007 by Sacred Music Man

[Maggyie]

It really is almost a Gnostic religion.

[jeffpugh]

Yeah... totally.

[N/A Gone]

As someone with blood on their hands from serving, I would argue that it is possible to defend the view that we should defend the weak, the problem is the structure of that debate is brought to ruins by 2 things right now. 1.) it is very arguable that we are not "defending the weak" with current political actions. (not all, by all means we are having political actions all over the world. Not just in the sandbox) also, the major problem is the lack of free will. If we are presented with a situation where we pick up our arms and defend our family than cool. But in enlisting you are pledging to do the will of the country. Not defending your home.

Read the book "Theopolitical Imaginations"

Dr.Cavanaugh is a prof at St. Thomas and is a great catholic leader. The book is amazing. If the cost is too much, send me a PM and we can work something out for me to mail it to you. One soldier to another.

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Theopolitical-Imagination-William-T-Cavanaugh/dp/0567088774/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-1058999-0888805?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178484821&sr=8-1"]http://www.amazon.com/Theopolitical-Imagin...4821&sr=8-1[/url]

Sorry I couldnt help with the JW..i would rather help you instead.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1266180' date='May 6 2007, 05:55 PM']As someone with blood on their hands from serving, I would argue that it is possible to defend the view that we should defend the weak, the problem is the structure of that debate is brought to ruins by 2 things right now. 1.) it is very arguable that we are not "defending the weak" with current political actions. (not all, by all means we are having political actions all over the world. Not just in the sandbox) also, the major problem is the lack of free will. If we are presented with a situation where we pick up our arms and defend our family than cool. But in enlisting you are pledging to do the will of the country. Not defending your home.

Read the book "Theopolitical Imaginations"

Dr.Cavanaugh is a prof at St. Thomas and is a great catholic leader. The book is amazing. If the cost is too much, send me a PM and we can work something out for me to mail it to you. One soldier to another.

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Theopolitical-Imagination-William-T-Cavanaugh/dp/0567088774/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-1058999-0888805?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178484821&sr=8-1"]http://www.amazon.com/Theopolitical-Imagin...4821&sr=8-1[/url]

Sorry I couldnt help with the JW..i would rather help you instead.[/quote]


One of the reasons I want to enlist is to help protect and defend a nation that I truely love. I most certainly understand this country is far from perfect, including the decisions our government makes from time to time. This still does not deter, nor discourage my willingness to aid our country in protecting its shores to the best of my abilities. I don't believe service members are personally held accountable for the decisions of their superiors, who could've predicted this current conflict would come anyway? If someone joins wanting blood, then they are not fit for the service nor should they be allowed in the ranks. Of course I've never served in the military (I hope I will soon), so my critique on a recruit's behavior is not of much value.


I found a similar topic on this issue at the Catholic.com boards, and it's pretty interesting. [url="http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=94433&highlight=Military+service"]Killing in the military... quick question[/url]

I'm curious if one of the user's statements is true: [i]"The Church has never held even WWII Axis German and Italian soildiers guilty of mortal sin for killing on the side of injustice. It would be rather awkward for the Church to now hold American soldiers guilty of mortal sin for fighting in a war where the freely ellected Iraqie government asks us to stay and protect them till they get on their feet."[/i]



It's an interesting issue, but this is something to keep in mind. If enlistment in the armed forces was a grave sin, wouldn't the Church be vocal on this topic? Apparently the only issue the Church is concerned about is if this war is a "just war", not if military enlistment is a sin.

I'm just looking for answers on how to counter anti-military/anti-governmental behavior.



[b]Note:[/b] Thanks for the book recommendation, Rev. Which branch did (or do) you serve?

[RezaMikhaeil]

JW's aren't the only one's... Anabaptists also don't believe in war, and are pacafist by nature. That doesn't mean that they dont believe in helping the oppressed thou, that's an over statement.

[N/A Gone]

you cant say "baptists believe..." they dont agree.

Paladin, Special Opps...

My issue is that even if the church does not judge it as sin, my issue is that we lose cognative control. There is a time when you will be told to shoot another human because of something you do not understand. There is a farmer in nebraska who is willing to fly half way around the world to take the life of someone he has never met and will be told to kill him. This is not justified fighting, there is a strong religious aspect to that. I believe there is a fine line between protecting our family, and pledging loyality to a goverment that should only go to our church and family. Like I said..a fine line

To the the nature of the talk, if you want to switch to PM I will understand.

GET THE BOOK!!!!