Missing Mass Is A Mortal Sin Yes Or No?

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='reyb' post='1294840' date='Jun 13 2007, 11:12 PM'][indent]This is my point...[/indent]
[indent]Missing a mass cannot be classify as mortal sin because it [post="1291740"][b]lacks the condition [/b][/post]presented in CCC pp 1854 to weight the gravity of effect on human experience and thus to classify the committed sin whether it is mortal or venial sin.[/indent][/quote]

Paragraph 1854 is only an introductory paragraph to the specific topic of venial and mortal sins. It's simply offering three brief points to support the statement, "Sins are rightly evaluated according to their gravity," which are:

#1) Scripture tells us that there is mortal sin,
#2) This distinction became part of the Church's tradition (which I presume is different from Sacred Tradition since "tradition" wasn't capitalized), and
#3) Human experience (Catechism-speak for "common sense") tells us that some sins are worse than others, for which you've already given several examples.

After this paragraph, the focus is on the Church's distinction between mortal and venial sins. This is where we get into the three conditions for mortal sin, the first of which is almost always easy because the Church tells us which sins concern grave matter. Therefore, to make the argument that a grave sin is not mortal, you need to look at paragraph 1859 where that distinction is specifically addressed. Going back to 1854 takes the introductory paragraph out of context. The only reason human experience is referenced is to make the point that some sins are worse that others. Any further conclusions are speculative, at best.

Just for the sake of convenience, this is pp 1859:

[i]Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.[/i]

1862 is also relevant:

[i]One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.[/i]

Nothing about human experience there

Edited June 15, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[Socrates]

[quote name='reyb' post='1294835' date='Jun 13 2007, 08:39 PM'][indent][indent][/indent][/indent][indent]No. I does not concern about grave matter. It is already given that missing a mass is a grave matter but to say 'missing a mass is a mortal sin' that is the subject of discussion.[/indent][/quote]
If grave matter is present, as is knowledge of the grave matter and full and free consent of the will, then it is a mortal sin.

We have established that missing Mass on a Sunday or holy day of obligation is grave matter. If one knows it is wrong to miss Mass on a Sunday, yet does it anyway, and freely consents to it (i.e. - there were not circumstances beyond his control preventing him from attending mass), he has committed mortal sin.

It's really not that complicated.

[reyb]

[indent][quote name='Socrates' post='1295592' date='Jun 14 2007, 10:32 PM']If grave matter is present, as is knowledge of the grave matter and full and free consent of the will, then it is a mortal sin.

We have established that missing Mass on a Sunday or holy day of obligation is grave matter. If one knows it is wrong to miss Mass on a Sunday, yet does it anyway, and freely consents to it (i.e. - there were not circumstances beyond his control preventing him from attending mass), he has committed mortal sin.

It's really not that complicated.[/quote][/indent]
[indent]It is true that missing a mass is a grave matter – actually it is a grave sin but, to classify it as a mortal sin – that is the problem because there is a condition in classifying any committed sin – it needs ‘corroboration of human experience’. [post="1291740"]Please read [/post][/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1295493' date='Jun 14 2007, 09:26 PM'][i]Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.[/i]

1862 is also relevant:

[i]One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.[/i]

Nothing about human experience there [/quote]
[indent]That is already given. Missing a mass -deliberately done.[/indent][indent]Of course, because the condition was already established in [post="1291730"]paragraph 1854 [/post]
I know you know what I mean.[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='reyb' post='1295878' date='Jun 15 2007, 10:25 AM'][indent][color="#0000FF"]It is true [/color]that missing a mass is a grave matter – actually it is a grave sin but, to classify it as a mortal sin – that is the problem because there is a condition in classifying any committed sin – it needs ‘corroboration of human experience’. [post="1291740"]Please read [/post][/indent][/quote]

[indent]It should be [color="#0000FF"]'According to Catechism of Roman Catholic Church[/color] missing a mass is a grave matter – actually it is a grave sin but, to classify it as a mortal sin – that is the problem because there is a condition in classifying any committed sin – it needs ‘corroboration of human experience’[/indent]

[indent]Just for clarification.[/indent]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='reyb' post='1295888' date='Jun 15 2007, 11:36 AM'][indent]That is already given. Missing a mass -deliberately done.[/indent][indent]Of course, because the condition was already established in [post="1291730"]paragraph 1854 [/post]
I know you know what I mean.[/indent][/quote]

Did you read the entirety of my previous comment? The [i]only[/i] thing "corroboration of human experience" tells us that some sins are worse that others. It is only mentioned in the introductory paragraph and never again after that.

Human experience does not tell us which sins concern grave matter.

The Church tells us which sins concern grave matter.

We could just as well say that human experience doesn't seem to indicate that gay marriage and contraception would be grave sins, which is why many liberal Catholics take paragraph 1854 out of context in exactly the same way you are to justify their positions. Human experience is too subjective to tell us what is grave matter. That's why Christ gave us the Church as an objective and authoritative source.

Instead of arguing with us about it, go find an orthodox priest who agrees with you.

[reyb]

[indent]Thank you and I will read it again.[/indent]

[tvu_srfan]

Ok, I have a question.

I actually stopped reading this thread around the third page, so sorry if this is random but it seemed related to the subject.

But a few months ago I "realized" that I would be missing mass for a certain reason that was not a sickness or emergency. So, I asked my priest about it and he said that it would be ok. But I still feel guilty for missing mass when I think about it now. He is a priest obedient to the Church that I trust, but to me it didnt seem a good enough excuse to miss mass. However, lately I have also been struggling with scrupulosity so I don't know if that's why I'm still feel bad about that.

[OneForTruth]

[quote name='tvu_srfan' post='1299512' date='Jun 21 2007, 12:41 PM']Ok, I have a question.

I actually stopped reading this thread around the third page, so sorry if this is random but it seemed related to the subject.

But a few months ago I "realized" that I would be missing mass for a certain reason that was not a sickness or emergency. So, I asked my priest about it and he said that it would be ok. But I still feel guilty for missing mass when I think about it now. He is a priest obedient to the Church that I trust, but to me it didnt seem a good enough excuse to miss mass. However, lately I have also been struggling with scrupulosity so I don't know if that's why I'm still feel bad about that.[/quote]

What a horrible tragedy this doctrine is...it certainly fosters a works salvation mentality. There is no such thing as mortal sin the way the CC teaches mortal sin.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Is this physical death or spirtual death...

Even with spirtual death...context says this...

1 John 5:17-19 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 18 [b]We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not[/b][i][/i]. 19 [u]And we know that we are of God[/u], and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

One truly born of God will not fall into utter wickedness and sin unto death...those that are associated with Christianity and have been enlightened and tasted the gifts and knowledge of Christ - AND FALL AWAY - are apostate. They were never saved!

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: [b]whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him[/b].

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='tvu_srfan' post='1299512' date='Jun 21 2007, 02:41 PM']But a few months ago I "realized" that I would be missing mass for a certain reason that was not a sickness or emergency. So, I asked my priest about it and he said that it would be ok. But I still feel guilty for missing mass when I think about it now. He is a priest obedient to the Church that I trust, but to me it didnt seem a good enough excuse to miss mass. However, lately I have also been struggling with scrupulosity so I don't know if that's why I'm still feel bad about that.[/quote]

Sickness and emergency are not the only two valid reasons for missing Mass. The sin is in consciously choosing to do something else over worshiping God and communing with Him at Mass.

To answer your question, yes, you're being scrupulous Your priest said it's fine, so don't worry about it. I probably wouldn't even bother to ask my priest. If I can't make it to Mass, then I can't make it whether I have permission to skip or not. Only time I've missed since becoming Catholic last year was from sleeping right through it. I intended to go, but when you wake up an hour after Mass ended, it's not like you can do anything about it.


[quote name='OneForTruth' post='1300136' date='Jun 23 2007, 11:08 AM']What a horrible tragedy this doctrine is...it certainly fosters a works salvation mentality. There is no such thing as mortal sin the way the CC teaches mortal sin.[/quote]

The problem isn't with the doctrine, but with the way the doctrine has been interpreted and practiced. Too many people think they know what other people's mortal sins are, and last I checked none of them was Jesus Christ (or Padre Pio ). People who take their faith seriously tend to struggle with scrupulosity. I've seen it among Catholics and Evangelicals alike. Only thing that's different is the specific actions or omission of actions that they worry about.

As I pointed out before, only one of the three conditions for mortal sin is a "black-and-white" type of thing. The other two require you to look into your heart and examine the reasons why you did or didn't do something. It's the reasons, stemming from the condition of your relationship with God, that make a sin mortal or venial, or not a sin at all. If anything, far from being works-oriented, this doctrine encourages us to become more aware of God's grace and mercy.

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1300593' date='Jun 24 2007, 03:31 PM']As I pointed out before, only one of the three conditions for mortal sin is a "black-and-white" type of thing. The other two require you to look into your heart and examine the reasons why you did or didn't do something. It's the reasons, stemming from the condition of your relationship with God, that make a sin mortal or venial, or not a sin at all. If anything, far from being works-oriented, this doctrine encourages us to become more aware of God's grace and mercy.[/quote]

[indent]LouisvilleFan,

Missing a mass is not a mortal sin but a 'grave sin' according to Catechism of Catholic Church.[/indent]

[Socrates]

[quote name='reyb' post='1300767' date='Jun 24 2007, 06:09 PM'][indent]LouisvilleFan,

Missing a mass is not a mortal sin but a 'grave sin' according to Catechism of Catholic Church.[/indent][/quote]
"Grave sin" and "mortal sin" are synonymous. They mean the same thing.

[Paddington]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1300768' date='Jun 24 2007, 09:42 PM']"Grave sin" and "mortal sin" are synonymous. They mean the same thing.[/quote]

If sb commits a grave sin without full knowledge of the gravity it is not mortal (taking away a state of grace.). I'm sure that is what he meant.

[reyb]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1300768' date='Jun 24 2007, 07:12 PM']"Grave sin" and "mortal sin" are synonymous. They mean the same thing.[/quote]


[quote name='Paddington' post='1300770' date='Jun 24 2007, 07:24 PM']If sb commits a grave sin without full knowledge of the gravity it is not mortal (taking away a state of grace.). I'm sure that is what he meant.[/quote]

[indent]That is not the point.[/indent]. [indent]Grave sin in this manner is too grave to have conditions to satify in oder to be considered 'grave sin'. Thus, grave sin is not mortal sin with respect to entire chapter IV, Article 8 of Catechism of Catholic Church.[/indent]

[Paddington]

[quote name='reyb' post='1300785' date='Jun 24 2007, 10:10 PM'][indent]That is not the point.[/indent]. [indent]Grave sin in this manner is too grave to have conditions to satify in oder to be considered 'grave sin'. Thus, grave sin is not mortal sin with respect to entire chapter IV, Article 8 of Catechism of Catholic Church.[/indent][/quote]


Well, now I'm lost. But, I went back further in the thread and Socrates earlier said the same thing that I said. Anywho...