OneForTruth Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 [quote name='Terra Firma' post='1292828' date='Jun 11 2007, 11:08 AM']Answer 1: During Mass, the entire Body of Christ joins together in thanksgiving. By refusing to participate in that, you do damage to relationships within the body. It's like refusing to show up to Christmas dinner with your family because you'd rather be sleeping. Also, you give up an opportunity to partake of the graces of the sacrament, which help you in your struggles against sin. Because of this, you are more vulnerable to temptation. In addition, we are obliged to follow the church's commands here, so I think there is a break not only with the community of believers but also with the authority of the church. Answer 2: Yes.[/quote] Where is mortal sin in the Bible? You will say in 1 John 5:16... 1John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. But can a true believer and one of the elect commit this sin??? Let us look at the context... 1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. 16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 18 [b]We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not[/b]; but [b]he that is begotten of God keepeth himself[/b], and that wicked one toucheth him not. 19 And [b]we know that we are of God[/b], and the whole world lieth in wickedness. 1John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: [b]whosoever sinneth hath not seen him[/b], neither known him. Those that fall away and sin wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth (Heb 10:26-29) - hath not seen God. Those who of God...begotten of God...are of the elect...will not sin a sin unto death which is ultimately unbelief. By the way...these scriptures do not mean that those born of God will never sin, it means that they will not habitually practice sin ulimately ending in death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 [quote name='OneForTruth' post='1292842' date='Jun 11 2007, 11:34 AM']By the way...these scriptures do not mean that those born of God will never sin, it means that they will not habitually practice sin ulimately ending in death.[/quote] Well, I'm glad at least that you don't believe that. I've heard some claim that Christians aren't capable of sin. You identify the word "sinner" as meaning a habitual sinner unto death. That's good. What do you make of this verse? "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." -James 5:19-20 St. James is addressing the faithful and supposes that one of them might err from the truth. He then calls such a person a sinner. He then says that such a person can be brought back and his soul saved. In short, I don't see any way that this verse can mean anything other than that true believers can lose faith and fall away. I think what St. John was saying doesn't have to lead to your conclusion. As you know, we are adopted sons of God, begotten by adoption. If we are adopted, then we may also be disowned or we may cut ourselves off so that we are no longer sons of God. God bless, Micah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneForTruth Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 (edited) [quote name='Raphael' post='1292889' date='Jun 11 2007, 12:31 PM']Well, I'm glad at least that you don't believe that. I've heard some claim that Christians aren't capable of sin. You identify the word "sinner" as meaning a habitual sinner unto death. That's good. What do you make of this verse? "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." -James 5:19-20 St. James is addressing the faithful and supposes that one of them might err from the truth. He then calls such a person a sinner. He then says that such a person can be brought back and his soul saved. In short, I don't see any way that this verse can mean anything other than that true believers can lose faith and fall away. I think what St. John was saying doesn't have to lead to your conclusion. As you know, we are adopted sons of God, begotten by adoption. If we are adopted, then we may also be disowned or we may cut ourselves off so that we are no longer sons of God. God bless, Micah[/quote] I understand what you are saying...however...the elect will never completely fall away from the truth...BUT...in some cases may stumble. It is in these cases that we must reach out to eachother as fellow believer's and correct them. Those who are born of God will return. God not only ordains that the elect will be saved in the end, but also ordains the means of their salvation - this type of activity being a means of the elect remaining in Christ... Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, [b]if possible[/b], the elect. Ps 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. 24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand. IN THE CASE OF JAMES 5:19-20 - GOD'S HAND IS PERSONIFIED IN ONE BELIEVER REACHING OUT TO ANOTHER TO CORRECT THEM THAT THEY MIGHT REMAIN... Pr 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief. God's ordination of the means and the end of salvation can be illustrated in this case... The illustration is in Acts 27 and it is very good... A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble...Here is what Paul says has been God's decree... Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: [b]for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you[/b], but of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, [b]God hath given thee all them that sail with thee[/b]. 25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me. God is sovereign and has foreordained this "salvation" to occur (physcial saving of life - not the saving of the soul). However...the means by which this will take place must also take place and that is exemplified here. Just because God said that everything would be okay does not mean that everyone just sits back and watches...look what happens. Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, [b]Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved[/b]. If God's decree is to come to fulfillment, the means by which it comes to pass must also take place and has been foreordained by God...He said - DON'T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture. These are your favorite passages come in... Revelation 3:5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; [b]and I will not erase his name from the book of life[/b], and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Hebrews 10:35 Therefore, [b]do not throw away your confidence[/b], which has a great reward. 36 [b]For you have need of endurance[/b], so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. Just like Paul told the shipmen to stay in the boat, we are to make sure our brothers and sisters stay on the boat as well... And the like... These scripture passages basically say...YOU MUST PERSEVERE!!...and those who are of the elect WILL. If not, then they, in fact and indeed, were not chosen by God from the foundation of the world. The activity described in James 5:19-20 is designed to "keep" the elect. Edited June 11, 2007 by OneForTruth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 [quote name='OneForTruth' post='1293066' date='Jun 11 2007, 03:22 PM']I understand what you are saying...however...the elect will never completely fall away from the truth...BUT...in some cases may stumble. It is in these cases that we must reach out to eachother as fellow believer's and correct them. Those who are born of God will return. God not only ordains that the elect will be saved in the end, but also ordains the means of their salvation - this type of activity being a means of the elect remaining in Christ... Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, [b]if possible[/b], the elect.[/quote] "If possible" doesn't mean "as if possible." This verse doesn't say that it's not possible, it's just saying that if it can happen, the devil will try it. [quote]Ps 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. 24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand. IN THE CASE OF JAMES 5:19-20 - GOD'S HAND IS PERSONIFIED IN ONE BELIEVER REACHING OUT TO ANOTHER TO CORRECT THEM THAT THEY MIGHT REMAIN... Pr 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.[/quote]Well, but if you use these verses to support your theology, then the man's goodness, not his faith, is what saves him. A Catholic, however, would understand that good men are only good to the extent that they act good. If he sins, he's no longer a good man. In Catholicism, mortal sin is ceasing to be "a good man." It's not that the Lord is abandoning him, it's that he's abandoning the Lord. I think what Psalm 37 is saying is that even though he sins, he hasn't abandoned God, and so God will not abandon him. The Psalm isn't referring to a situation in which the man abandons God (mortal sin), but a situation in which man is committing venial sins. In fact, it sounds like what you're saying is that if a man is good, God will keep him from being able to sin, but that means man is not free, and if man is not free, then there cannot be sin in the first place. Man's goodness comes from his moral life, not the other way around. [quote]God's ordination of the means and the end of salvation can be illustrated in this case... The illustration is in Acts 27 and it is very good... A group of people including Paul are on a ship and in trouble...Here is what Paul says has been God's decree... Acts 27:21-25 KJV 21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. 22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: [b]for there shall be no loss of any man's life among you[/b], but of the ship. 23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, 24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, [b]God hath given thee all them that sail with thee[/b]. 25 Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me. God is sovereign and has foreordained this "salvation" to occur (physcial saving of life - not the saving of the soul). However...the means by which this will take place must also take place and that is exemplified here. Just because God said that everything would be okay does not mean that everyone just sits back and watches...look what happens. Acts 27:30-31 KJV 30 And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, 31 Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, [b]Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved[/b]. If God's decree is to come to fulfillment, the means by which it comes to pass must also take place and has been foreordained by God...He said - DON'T GET OUT OF THE BOAT!! We are told this many times throughout scripture. These are your favorite passages come in... Revelation 3:5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; [b]and I will not erase his name from the book of life[/b], and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Hebrews 10:35 Therefore, [b]do not throw away your confidence[/b], which has a great reward. 36 [b]For you have need of endurance[/b], so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.[/quote] Notice that none who "overcomes" will have his name erased from the book of life. Overcoming implies a battle. A battle can look really good at one point and then completely ruin a person. "Overcomes" sounds to me like it's saying that the person in question has to keep fighting and win in the end. That means ongoing conversion. That also means that a person can fall from grace. Second, St. Paul says, as you boldfaced, that we have need of endurance. Why would there be need of endurance if we couldn't fall? [quote]Just like Paul told the shipmen to stay in the boat, we are to make sure our brothers and sisters stay on the boat as well... And the like... These scripture passages basically say...YOU MUST PERSEVERE!!...and those who are of the elect WILL. If not, then they, in fact and indeed, were not chosen by God from the foundation of the world. The activity described in James 5:19-20 is designed to "keep" the elect.[/quote] I'm sorry, but that doesn't prove your point. I agree that the passages say "you must persevere," but none of them say, "you're incapable of not persevering" or "if you don't persevere, you were never a real Christian." On the contrary, they say pretty clearly that you can be running the race and not only stumble, but crash into a heap on the ground. St. Paul says that he hopes he can complete the race. If you're right, why would he even be concerned about that? The fundamental issue here is that Protestants see salvation as man accepting grace where Catholics see salvation as man cooperating with grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneForTruth Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 [quote name='Raphael' post='1293087' date='Jun 11 2007, 03:50 PM']"If possible" doesn't mean "as if possible." This verse doesn't say that it's not possible, it's just saying that if it can happen, the devil will try it. Well, but if you use these verses to support your theology, then the man's goodness, not his faith, is what saves him. A Catholic, however, would understand that good men are only good to the extent that they act good. If he sins, he's no longer a good man. In Catholicism, mortal sin is ceasing to be "a good man." It's not that the Lord is abandoning him, it's that he's abandoning the Lord. I think what Psalm 37 is saying is that even though he sins, he hasn't abandoned God, and so God will not abandon him. The Psalm isn't referring to a situation in which the man abandons God (mortal sin), but a situation in which man is committing venial sins. In fact, it sounds like what you're saying is that if a man is good, God will keep him from being able to sin, but that means man is not free, and if man is not free, then there cannot be sin in the first place. Man's goodness comes from his moral life, not the other way around. Notice that none who "overcomes" will have his name erased from the book of life. Overcoming implies a battle. A battle can look really good at one point and then completely ruin a person. "Overcomes" sounds to me like it's saying that the person in question has to keep fighting and win in the end. That means ongoing conversion. That also means that a person can fall from grace. Second, St. Paul says, as you boldfaced, that we have need of endurance. Why would there be need of endurance if we couldn't fall? I'm sorry, but that doesn't prove your point. I agree that the passages say "you must persevere," but none of them say, "you're incapable of not persevering" or "if you don't persevere, you were never a real Christian." On the contrary, they say pretty clearly that you can be running the race and not only stumble, but crash into a heap on the ground. St. Paul says that he hopes he can complete the race. If you're right, why would he even be concerned about that? The fundamental issue here is that Protestants see salvation as man accepting grace where Catholics see salvation as man cooperating with grace.[/quote] These are the same type of warnings to the elect that the shipmen received in Acts 27...was God's will and proclamation going to be thwarted on that ship? No...but, in order for his will to be brought to pass, the shipmen had to remain...hence the warning from Paul. That warning was the means by which the people on the ship were saved and both the means and the end of that salvation were ordained of God. You use these warnings for the elect to infer that they can be lost. If you are saying that not all the elect will be saved...you are saying that God's word is not true...See the thread "Justification" for my postings there. Those whom God has chosen will be saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 Missing mass deliberately on a Sunday or Holy Day of Obligation is a mortal sin, and must be confessed before receiving. It is not sinful if it is not reasonably possible to attend due to circumstances beyond one's control (illness, distance, etc.) There is probably a certain amount of "grey area" where missing mass could be venial (feeling a bit sick, but probably could have made it without too much trouble, etc.), but as someone else pointed out, how sinful it would be lies in the heart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Knight Posted June 13, 2007 Author Share Posted June 13, 2007 Wow I had no idea this topic would go this far, the question has already been answered. lol Thanks everyone for their replies, and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 [indent]not yet.[/indent] [indent]I am just thinking the right words because I do not want anybody to hate me or misinterpret me in anyway especially Terra Firma.[/indent] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 [indent][indent]CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLCATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ARTICLE 3 THE THIRD COMMANDMENT [/indent][/indent][indent][indent][color="#0000FF"]2177 The Sunday celebration of the Lord's Day and his Eucharist is at the heart of the Church's life. "Sunday is the day on which the paschal mystery is celebrated in light of the apostolic tradition and is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church."110 "Also to be observed are the day of the Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Epiphany, the Ascension of Christ, the feast of the Body and Blood of Christi, the feast of Mary the Mother of God, her Immaculate Conception, her Assumption, the feast of Saint Joseph, the feast of the Apostles Saints Peter and Paul, and the feast of All Saints."111 2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age.112 The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful "not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, [b]but to encourage one another[/b]."113 [/color][/indent][/indent] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 [indent][indent]Obviously, the proponent of the Catechism of The Catholic Church knows this ‘missing-mass- issue’ will be used and discussed by the faithful as well as non-catholic thus, he used the word grave sin which is not clearly define unlike that of mortal sin in CCCpp1854ff. [/indent] [indent]With the statement presented herein, it seems the importance of the Eucharist in the life of the faithful must be revealed.[/indent][/indent][indent][indent][quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1292603' date='Jun 11 2007, 12:36 AM']You mentioned this thing about mortal sins being corroborated by human experience and your theoretical example of corroboration was missing Sunday Mass, dying on Monday, and finding yourself in Hell, then apparently by some grace of God, coming back to life with the knowledge that missing Mass is definitely a mortal sin. The biggest problem with that argument is that no sin, even betraying Jesus for 30 silver pieces, is known to have caused any particular person to end up in Hell. So if that's our definition of "human experience," then there might as well be no such thing as mortal sin.[/quote][/indent][/indent] ------------------------------- [indent][indent]If CCCpp1854 is to be followed, temporal effect of missing a mass should be established and it should be a grave matter - in order to fall into the category of mortal sin. Otherwise, grave sin is not mortal sin as I explained before. That is why I said ‘unless of course somebody will tell me …’ in that manner. Other than that, what is the temporal effect of missing a mass – a grave one? I thought Terra Firma is just ‘playing-words’ without any idea or intention other than to emphasize the eternal effect of missing a mass to point her view while she discusses this subject. And out of my negligence I said ‘according to Terra Firma’ but actually it is according to me. Now, it seems I am wrong, if I am really wrong. She is not just playing-words because she pointed the only possible explanation and intention, why the proponent of Catechism of the Catholic Church states ‘missing a mass deliberately is a grave sin. And your answer is this: [color="#4169E1"]QUOTE(reyb @ Jun 11 2007, 06:06 AM) Terra Firma, Question 1: What is the temporal effect of missing a mass? Can you please give me some example? (just food for thought) Question 2: Is missing a mass (deliberately done) a mortal sin or not? (with respect to question 1). Answer 1: During Mass, the entire Body of Christ joins together in thanksgiving. By refusing to participate in that, you do damage to relationships within the body. It's like refusing to show up to Christmas dinner with your family because you'd rather be sleeping. Also, you give up an opportunity to partake of the graces of the sacrament, which help you in your struggles against sin. Because of this, you are more vulnerable to temptation. In addition, we are obliged to follow the church's commands here, so I think there is a break not only with the community of believers but also with the authority of the church. Answer 2: Yes. [/color] ------------------------------- Of course, it is possible that missing a mass of one member may cause ‘damage to relationships’ even within family or between members and leader or whosoever in the church. Now, suppose a mother gets angry because her daughter missed mass without any reason. Who do you think is wrong? Again, suppose anyone failed his obligation and the priest or bishop get mad (if there is any), who do you think is right? Now, if there is anyone with this problem please remind them [color="#0000FF"]CCC2177-2178[/color] [color="#0000FF"][indent]2177 The Sunday celebration of the Lord's Day and his Eucharist is at the heart of the Church's life. "Sunday is the day on which the paschal mystery is celebrated in light of the apostolic tradition and is to be observed as the foremost holy day of obligation in the universal Church."110 "Also to be observed are the day of the Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Epiphany, the Ascension of Christ, the feast of the Body and Blood of Christi, the feast of Mary the Mother of God, her Immaculate Conception, her Assumption, the feast of Saint Joseph, the feast of the Apostles Saints Peter and Paul, and the feast of All Saints."111 2178 This practice of the Christian assembly dates from the beginnings of the apostolic age.112 The Letter to the Hebrews reminds the faithful "not to neglect to meet together, as is the habit of some, [b]but to encourage one another[/b]."113 [/indent][/color]Question: Can you please explain to me the temporal effect of missing a mass – a grave one - if they are ‘encouraging each other’? [/indent][/indent] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted June 13, 2007 Share Posted June 13, 2007 Why do you say "grave" sin is not as clearly defined as "mortal" sin? Unless I'm missing something, one of the conditions for mortal sin is that it concerns something of grave matter. The Catechism says that attending Mass is a grave matter. How does that not close the book on this discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 [indent]LouisvilleFan,[/indent] [indent][indent][quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1294569' date='Jun 13 2007, 03:20 PM']Why do you say "grave" sin is not as clearly defined as "mortal" sin? Unless I'm missing something, one of the conditions for mortal sin is that it concerns something of grave matter. The Catechism says that attending Mass is a grave matter. How does that not close the book on this discussion?[/quote][/indent][/indent][indent]No. I does not concern about grave matter. It is already given that missing a mass is a grave matter but to say 'missing a mass is a mortal sin' that is the subject of discussion.[/indent] [indent](I will just paste my previous post. sorry I do not know how to link them simultaneously.)[/indent] [indent]And this my point............[/indent] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 [indent]This is my point...[/indent] [indent]Missing a mass cannot be classify as mortal sin because it [post="1291740"][b]lacks the condition [/b][/post]presented in CCC pp 1854 to weight the gravity of effect on human experience and thus to classify the committed sin whether it is mortal or venial sin.[/indent] [indent](ok I learn already has to use post link - condition)[/indent] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 [indent]for info[/indent][indent]CCC pp1854 means Paragraph 1854 of Catechism of the Catholic Church ) [/indent] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted June 14, 2007 Share Posted June 14, 2007 [indent]Opps…sorry for all erroneous grammar and spelling.[/indent] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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