Do You Really Think The Religion You Belong To Means You're Damned

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Budge' post='1264088' date='May 4 2007, 07:06 AM']What is your position here?

Do you believe that faith in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation?[/quote]

My position is this:

1.) God said to Moses that he'll have mercy upon who he has mercy and he wont have mercy upon who he wont have mercy. Being that we know [according to the Bible] that God is the same yesterday today and forever, this still applies.

2.) Jesus Christ gave us a clear path to getting to heaven, so rather then wonder... "Gee... is God going to have mercy upon me..." we don't have to wonder but we can be certain in his promise, that we'll get to paradise if we follow the path that has been given to us by Jesus Christ, through Jesus Christ.

Challenge: I often hear people say, "None get to the Father but Through Jesus Christ" and interpret that to mean that none get to heaven unless they believe in the Christian faith that we believe to be true, perfectly. That's a very "western" interpretation and definately isn't universal and never has been, what is universal is that Jesus Christ is the only way that we get to the father.

If Jesus allows a Muslim [for example] into heaven, did that person not get there through Jesus Christ? It doesn't subtract from his divinity but adds to it [as every piece of mercy shown by Jesus Christ, because of his desire to show mercy adds to his divinity and proves that he is, indeed God! Now I'm not saying that Islam is the path, what I am saying is that Jesus is the path, but what seperates him from the God of the Qur'an is his mercy that is much greater then what Muslims could ever expect from their interpretation of what they believe God is...

Reza

[N/A Gone]

Figures, Budge drives this horribly off-topic.

[quote]Do you believe that faith in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation?[/quote]This questions can take on numerous forms. The issue is present in every Christian field, from ecumenism, to theology, and greatly in the mission field. Faith confessions have different ideas as to what the answer is, but that answer effects how they relate to the world and how the relate to God.
I am going to address this answer from the perspective of Dr. Greg Boyd first. Dr. Boyd was my first mentor, a theologian that set the initial foundation to how I do theology, and how theology has moved from a mental exercise to something of the heart.
In the book Letters from a Skeptic, Dr Boyd addresses the objections set by his atheist father. In the process of the conversation, the issue was asked if “all non-Christians go to hell.” Initially Dr. Boyd is mature in admitting that this issue is “a lot of disagreement, even among evangelicals” admitting that he will be disappointed if he is searching for absolute certainty in resolving the issue.
The approach that Boyd decides to work from is from the known to the unknown. He calls this the “clear to the opaque.” He says that we do not know for certain what happens to those who die without Christ, it is opaque. In this Boyd works from five principles that he sets in determining his opinion on the matter.
The first principle can be summarized as an understanding that there are complexity of variables from which God interacts with us. Our perspective on reality is so small that we must just simply trust God although we do not see it. The second principle laid out by Boyd is the idea of the left hand of God, a doctrine that Boyd cites from Luther, but is in fact much older. The idea is that our predominate revelation of God is found in His Son. So if we have something from the entire biblical complexity, such as hell, or issues in the Old testament, we need to understand them as part of the greater mystery of God. A side of God or an aspect of God that we may not completely understand.
The third perspective Boyd introduces is in explaining to his father that there is no salvation outside of Christ. Boyd explains that this is the main theme of the New Testament. He does not expound on “how” the person is saved with Christ. He does not explain if a person needs to consciously acknowledge Christ, or if the sacrifice of Christ opens the door to everyone.
Boyd does acknowledge that the sacrifice of Christ embraces more that those who consciously embrace it. He cites the example of the old testament fathers of faith that were set as our examples of faith, yet did not know the name of Christ. He understands that in this God applies to them the sacrifice of Christ for other reasons that we do not understand. In this, to “go through” Christ is not exclusively to “believing in,” allowing for someone to be covered in Christ without knowing Christ. Boyd continues this line of thought to include Children, “retarded people” and others who are prevented from knowing Christ through no fault of their own. In conclusion, Boyd understands that God will judge people according to their hearts according to the light of truth which they did have to respond to, and according to the faith which was implicit in their hearts.
Boyd regresses from universalism to express the idea that the people who have not heard and believed in the gospel are in grave danger. In scripture we have a small amount to hold onto the hope that they can still find salvation, but we should still present a sense of urgency about expressing the gospel to these people. We know that an explicit faith in Christ will have salvation, but we are unsure about those outside the faith.
This is the perspective of one of the evangelical communities brightest minds, and one of their most compelling leaders. The next part of this paper I want to reflect on the thoughts of our present Pope, who at the time was known as Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger.
In an interview with secular journalist Peter Seeward. The question he was asked was “How many ways are there to God?” In this, Cardinal Ratzinger answers
[quote]"As many as there are people. For even within the same faith each man's way is entirely personal one. We have Christ's word: I am the way. In that respect, there is ultimately one way, and everyone who is on the way to God is therefore in some sense also on the way are identical in terms of consciousness and will, but, on the contrary, the one way is so big that it becomes a personal way for each man"[/quote]
In this, the Cardinal is reflecting on a position called Lauterkeit which is that in all religions there are men of interior purity who through their myths somehow touch the great mystery and find the right way of being human.
So the idea is not that other systems of faith are valid. But that someone can still be touched by grace, still find salvation while in those systems. Not because of those systems, and not always in spite of those systems. CS Lewis7 and other theologians have wrote that in the other myths of the world there are partial truths, those truths can led to a pursuit of other truths, and sanctifying grace.
Vat 2 teaches a few things here. In regard to protestants it is the understanding that in their eccesiologies there are variance of truths that can lead to sanctifying grace. The key is to find those truths and be open to the seeking of more truth. Not to be in these systems because they feel that it is enough. For to truly seek truth will bring you to more truth.
It has nothing to do with a denial of Christ. or simply being good. but by discovering the sanctifying grace. Plenty of people are good people but do not have grace. Thats a product of modernism. The individual people can discover grace. Not the people-groups overall. These communities do have partial truths. The world itself has partial truths. In romans Paul is able to convict the gentiles because they should be able to be moved towards grace simply by creation. Now, if a little Islamic boy is raised Islamic and is faithful to his faith and truly submits to truth and responds to it. I feel that grace can be found. The Holy Spirit moves all of creation towards Him. People in these systems can be moved by the spirit. Not because of these systems. Not in spite of them. As catholics we have more truth. We have the sacraments and the dogmas of truth. We have more truth expressed for us to react towards. But the key is still the reaction to grace expressed.
Paul says that the Lord has impressed his law on the hearts of men. This is called "natural law." It insures that no man has an excuse. Everyone will be held accountable for their actions, to the degree to which they have had the opportunity to know and accept the Truth. "To whom much has been given, much is required." I know Jesus Christ. I know his Church. I know what is True. Thus, much is required of me. But, for the Indian who never knew Christ and never will, he surely cannot be held to the same standard as me. It's impossible, and unjust. Thus, he is held accountable to the natural law imprinted on his heart. You don't have to know Jesus Christ to know that some actions are "good" and other ones are "bad."

[quote]“men of different nations are in possession light that God has given to people, especially in the fact that God has revealed Himself through nature/creation, and through prophets throughout history. It is human's duty to respond to the light/revelation that one has. I also believe that salvation only comes through grace, through calvary. So, if one is to be saved, somehow the merits of Christ have to be applied to him/her somehow.” [/quote]I believe this is the concept that has been presented in the sources I have provided to you with the numerous concepts. I will end by providing one more source.
[quote]"'Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.' Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity."[/quote]

Here we see that we respond to grace, and that grace can be expressed in ways that we are unable to know or understand. Salvation is based on our ability to respond to the grace as it is presented to us. In this, the missionary has the task of exposing more grace to the people who have yet to hear the gospel. Give them more opportunities to respond to grace and be brought into communion with God.

[goldenchild17]

wanted to edit my post but I waited too long.... anyways, I believe both God and the Catholic Church are absolutely necessary. We need God's grace alone for salvation, but to recieve this grace we need to recieve the sacraments of the Catholic Church which alone are the conduit of this grace.

[dairygirl4u2c]

the bible only says if you reject jesus you're damned. i don't think any of us are wise enough to know how one can truly reject him. is hearing a damnation preach as you walk through campus enough to say, gee i don't want to follow Jesus. Did that person really reject Jesus in a way that means anything? and if you're trying to discern the faith, is that enough to reject if you happen to die while discerning?

the bible never says if you don't accept him because you were unfamiliar that you would be damned. i suggest reading and thinking carefully the different between rejecting and not accepting, in teh passages of the end of Mark, John 3:16 where he goes on to define condemnation, and when Jesus says in John "i told you i am. unless you accept that, you're doomed". these all dleal with proactive rejectment where the person knew what they were rejecting.

just something to consider...

[got2luvjc]

I think budge may / may not have been referring to my post... what I said isn't what I actually believe, I guess I was just playing devils advocate... partially because the question proposed confused me to begin with.... *shrug*

I DON'T believe that any path leads to heaven... certain paths do, certain don 't

[thessalonian]

GodChaser,

Stop thinking in terms of dichotomy and you will understand Catholicism. It's not God or religion. Christ built a church which is the "pillar and support of the truth". If one is in line with that Church (religion) that most certainly has a bearing on one's salvation. That Church is the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has the full teaching of what to be obedient to God means, for it is infallible in faith and morals. We are told in scriptures that we can know the truth and the truth sets us free. So what our beliefs (i.e. our religion) is makes a difference. Further, the truth was revealed to the Church as a whole and so an individual thinking they can extract it correctly from a book is rather impossible. The truth is far bigger than the human mind, yet so many humans create a truth and exalt it as god. Such a truth is not supernatural and is a false truth.

[Budge]

[quote]I DON'T believe that any path leads to heaven... certain paths do, certain don 't[/quote]

So you and your pals here believe there are more then ONE way to heaven?

[got2luvjc]

[quote name='Budge' post='1264359' date='May 4 2007, 03:47 PM']So you and your pals here believe there are more then ONE way to heaven?[/quote]

ok, first of all, don't talk to me like that. "you and your pals". Grow up.

2nd, I didn't say there are more than one religion that get you to heaven (as in more than christianity), i just meant that if A,B, and C get you into Heaven, then sometimes people do A and B, some just C, and some accomplish all 3

example of a path that probably won't get you into Heaven: being agnostic (but no one can say if someone does / doesn't go to Heaven)

also note that I said "I", not "everyone on phatmass"

Edited May 4, 2007 by got2luvjc

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1264161' date='May 4 2007, 11:08 AM']the bible only says if...[/quote]


See, that is why there is the problem. Theology based on "the bible only says" does not work. Typically theology is a cute mental exericise for many, but when it moves to the practical bases of say.."lil kid in india" then you cant just throw the sola's around.

[quote name='Budge' post='1264359' date='May 4 2007, 02:47 PM']So you and your pals here believe there are more then ONE way to heaven?[/quote]

proving once again that Budge does not read what I wrote.

I ADDRESSED THIS!!!!!!

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Budge' post='1264081' date='May 4 2007, 08:46 AM']CHURCH MEMBERSHIP DOESNT MATTER ...{I dont care if anyone here ever becomes a Baptist, it simply does not matter to me. What matters to me is that you are born again and have entered into a true relationship with Christ in faith.

RELATIONSHIP TO JESUS CHRIST DOES and YOUR RESPONSE TO THE GOSPEL. {are you going to accept or refuse?}[/quote]

Well, Church membership ALONE doesn't matter obviously, but Church membership can affect how well you accept AND LIVE OUT the gospel. I mean, some churches think artificial birth control and remarriage after divorce are no big deal. When people in those churches commit those mortal sins, who is going to absolve them, since they do not have a valid ministerial priesthood? (I know you are going to say they can go directly to God, but remember that Jesus delegated authority to the apostles, and only the Catholic and Orthodox churches have valid apostiolic succession). And how are they going to make their Easter duty if they have no valid ministerial priesthood to consecrate the Eucharist?

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Budge' post='1264359' date='May 4 2007, 02:47 PM']So you and your pals here believe there are more then ONE way to heaven?[/quote]

There is only one path, one way, one truth, one light. Only the truth sets men free, only grace saves. The question is does one have to have perfect knowledge, understanding, and belief in that one way or is one simply accountable for the light and grace that God has given each individual. I go with the latter and leave it up to God to judge who goes to heaven because he knows what and and grace HE has given them. Every man has God's laws implanted in his heart, which is by grace. Every man can see nature calling out to the glory of his name. The sun shines on the good and the bad and so all are accountable for some level of understanding of him, which is truth. Error has no salvific value, nor does ignorance. But it can be excusable if God has not given one an opportunity or the grace to understand for whatever reason, only known to him. Judge not lest you be judged budge.

[jeffpugh]

Well GodChaser, I gotta compliment you on your first post on the new name. It really does spark a good question and debate! I'm glad that a lot of people made some input here. First, before I get into anything else, I should add my opinion: I voted God because ultimately it is up to His mercy whether we enter into eternal life or not. The other part is whether WE want eternal life or not, cause in the end, people send themselves to hell because they do not want to have an everlasting relationship with God. God can give mercy to those who seek the truth but have no access to Christ. We won't know till the end of time anyways... But! We must not leave these people ignorant! We should preach the Gospel as if they can't live without it! They will come love our Lord Jesus when they hear the fullness of truth that Mother Church has to offer. Only through the Catholic Church can one fully come to know Jesus because the Church is the Body of Christ.

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1264476' date='May 4 2007, 05:40 PM']See, that is why there is the problem. Theology based on "the bible only says" does not work. Typically theology is a cute mental exericise for many, but when it moves to the practical bases of say.."lil kid in india" then you cant just throw the sola's around.
proving once again that Budge does not read what I wrote.

I ADDRESSED THIS!!!!!![/quote]
Ignore Budge... I think we should start blocking her out for now on... the thing she just whined about was answered twice! Just continue on with our Phatmassing and address what comes up otherwise, until Budge grows up and learns to be civil with us. Apparently, her sincerity is lacking if she can't read all of the posts!

[GodChaser]

Thank you for debating this.

I voted being obedient to God's word, because right now, I am finding freedom in living in the word alone.

I'm Already to Job 28 for anybody asking.

Last night I did fall in my sins, but I got up again through application of the Word.

I plead the blood on my heart, mind, strength, and soul, and I proclaimed my victory in this matter because I am more than a conqueror through Christ Jesus.

I want to leave these scriptures for everybody to think about.

[quote name='"Ephesians 4:5' date=' KJV"']One Lord, one faith, one baptism,[/quote]

One Lord - kurios - 1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has
power of deciding; master, lord
1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing
1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master
1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor
1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence,
with which servants greet their master
1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah

One Faith - pistis - 1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a
conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and
divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and
holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and
ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal
salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is
the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in
the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence)
whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on

One Baptism - baptisma - 1) immersion, submersion
1a) of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed
1b) of John's baptism, that purification rite by which men on
confessing their sins were bound to spiritual reformation,
obtained the pardon of their past sins and became qualified
for the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom soon to be set up.
This was valid Christian baptism, as this was the only baptism
the apostles received and it is not recorded anywhere that
they were ever rebaptised after Pentecost.
1c) of Christian baptism; a rite of immersion in water as
commanded by Christ, by which one after confessing his sins
and professing his faith in Christ, having been born again by
the Holy Spirit unto a new life, identifies publicly with the
fellowship of Christ and the church.

Hmmm - This says that Christ is the lord alone, and we are to have faith in him, and to be baptized in immersion.

It's that, or those pesky greeks were just plain wrong and sinful! Ignorant Church Fathers writting such things. We can be sprinkled now - even if that means contridicting the church fathers, because the Pope says we can be sprinkled!

[Norseman82]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1266401' date='May 6 2007, 09:48 PM']It's that, or those pesky greeks were just plain wrong and sinful! Ignorant Church Fathers writting such things. We can be sprinkled now - even if that means contridicting the church fathers, because the Pope says we can be sprinkled![/quote]

Well, if the Council of Antioch can dispense gentiles from the need for circumcision....

[GodChaser]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1266403' date='May 6 2007, 08:52 PM']Well, if the Council of Antioch can dispense gentiles from the need for circumcision....[/quote]
Not the same, because I can go in scripture and show you where that is.

Where does it say they can change God's way for Baptism?