Eternal Security

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Everything on that list has a Bible verse right below it backing it up.[/quote]The same is true of all the points in the Catechism. What makes your list superior to the Catechism?

[quote]One does not earn salvation via works.[/quote]

I'm glad you're in agreement with the Catholic Church on that one, at least.

[Mateo el Feo]

PS: The idea of eternal assurance is probably the ultimate sin of presumption, which is contrary to the virtue of hope. I struggle to understand how Christians could foster this virtue in their hearts if they take for granted their own salvation.

[Katholikos]

Budge wrote:
[quote]Catholics have no assurance of salvation. In fact I feel sorry for you all living in the world of not knowing where you truly stand with God. I know I can be deceived, in fact having been UU, and Catholic, I am careful to TEST everything by Gods Word that I can and pray for His leading on everything I can.[/quote]

Budge, this is not true. Catholics have assurance of salvation as long as we are and we remain in a state of grace (without deadly sin). However, considering fallen human nature, we cannot be certain that we will not sin in the future. We have moral certitude, but not metaphysical certitude of our salvation. You claim to have metaphysical certitude, but this is not logical. We have metaphysical certitude that God exists, but can't be sure about our own behavior. We know that there is always the possibility that we may fall into temptation.

There are thousands upon thousands of Protestants who don't agree with your metaphysical certitude concerning salvation.. Do you "feel sorry for them"also. That's a very amusing thought. They base their beliefs on an interpretation of the same Bible you do. This is Sola Scriptura at work.

Of course, nothing in Protestantism is logical. You are deceived that you were deceived as a Catholic. You are deceived that you are the infallible interpreter of God's Word.

Likos

[mulls]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1263215' date='May 3 2007, 01:35 PM']You two are trying to play both sides of the fence.

On one side, you admit that some of the 100,000 people could be thoroughly convinced of their eternal security and born-again experience, yet be mistaken.

On the other side, you claim that someone can be convinced of their eternal security.

These are contradictory positions. One cannot be true without the other being false.

As for altar calls and sinner's prayers, these are red herrings in my example. I'm talking about 100,000 people who are thoroughly convinced of a born-again experience. What each of you has claimed is that one cannot be sure whether they have even had a born again experience.[/quote]


There is no contradiction at all.

A lot of people can be mistakenly convinced of their security. We're supposed to test ourselves, and we test ourselves by scripture. We should never [b]assume[/b] we're saved, especially just because of a "born-again experience" as you say. The born-again experience does not matter. Repenting, believing, turning your life over to Christ does (justification). The working out of that (sanctification) will produce good fruit.

Read 1 John. He gives the test.

[quote]1Jo 2:3 And by this [b]we know[/b] that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jo 2:4 Whoever says "[b]I know him[/b]" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

1Jo 2:13 I am writing to you, fathers, because [b]you know[/b] him who is from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, children, because [b]you know[/b] the Father

1Jo 2:14 I write to you, fathers, because [b]you know[/b] him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

1Jo 2:21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because [b]you know[/b] it, and because no lie is of the truth.

1Jo 2:29 If you [b]know[/b] that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but [b]we know[/b] that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

1Jo 3:14 [b]We know[/b] that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.

1Jo 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and [b]you know[/b] that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

1Jo 3:19 By this [b]we shall know[/b] that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him;

1Jo 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in him, and he in them. And by this [b]we know[/b] that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

1Jo 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

1Jo 4:6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this [b]we know[/b] the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:8 Anyone who does not love [b]does not know[/b] God, because God is love.

1Jo 4:13 By this [b]we know[/b] that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

1Jo 4:16 So [b]we have come to know[/b] and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

1Jo 5:2 By this [b]we know[/b] that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.

1Jo 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

1Jo 5:18 [b]We know[/b] that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him.[/quote]

Look how much we can know!

[b]
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test! [/b]

We can be assured, but we shouldn't assume.

Mateo, I cannot claim that someone else is or is not eternally secure. We can't decide that for others. We can only point them to the scripture that they may test themselves, and be assured of their own salvation.

Edited May 3, 2007 by mulls

[mulls]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1263091' date='May 3 2007, 03:44 AM']Astute observation, CA. If I sin, God's ability to act is suspended and no penalty will befall me -- my destiny is sealed. I'm heaven bound, regardless of my future actions. [b] I prevent God from condemning me to hell for my sins simply by believing with a sincere heart one time that once I'm saved, I'm always saved.[/b] God becomes a hostage to my belief, because "if we commit adultery or murder a thousand times a day, we cannot be separated from God. So "sin and sin strongly," Luther advised.[/quote]


are you saying that our only reason for obedience is a constant fear of hell?

I have no fear of hell, I've been justified once and for all.

But I fear God, and I love him, so I choose to obey (as best as I can).

[mulls]

Someone please answer me this:


What happened on the cross?

Die Christ die to save us, or to make us savable?

[prose]

To save us.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='mulls' post='1263370' date='May 3 2007, 05:20 PM']Someone please answer me this:
What happened on the cross?

Die Christ die to save us, or to make us savable?[/quote]He [i]redeemed[/i] us. Quoting the Catechism:
[quote][i]Jesus consummates his sacrifice on the Cross[/i]

616
It is love "to the end" that confers on Christ's sacrifice its value as redemption and reparation, as atonement and satisfaction. He knew and loved us all when he offered his life. Now "the love of Christ controls us, because we are convinced that one has died for all; therefore all have died." No man, not even the holiest, was ever able to take on himself the sins of all men and offer himself as a sacrifice for all. The existence in Christ of the divine person of the Son, who at once surpasses and embraces all human persons and constitutes himself as the Head of all mankind, makes possible his redemptive sacrifice for all.

617
The Council of Trent emphasizes the unique character of Christ's sacrifice as "the source of eternal salvation" and teaches that "his most holy Passion on the wood of the cross merited justification for us." And the Church venerates his cross as it sings: "Hail, O Cross, our only hope."[/quote]

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='mulls' post='1263364' date='May 3 2007, 05:14 PM']There is no contradiction at all.[/quote]

Let me see...
[quote name='mulls' post='1263364' date='May 3 2007, 05:14 PM']A lot of people can be mistakenly convinced of their security.
...
I have no fear of hell, I've been justified once and for all.[/quote]So does this mean that you can be convinced of your eternal security? Let's look at Holy Scripture. Can we trust our own judgment?
[quote name='Jeremiah 17:9-10']More tortuous than all else is the human heart, beyond remedy; [b]who can understand it? I, the LORD, alone probe the mind and test the heart[/b], To reward everyone according to his ways, according to the merit of his deeds.[/quote]
Does St. Paul believe he can judge himself?
[quote name='1 Cor 4:1-5']Thus should one regard us: as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. Now it is of course required of stewards that they be found trustworthy. It does not concern me in the least that I be judged by you or any human tribunal; [b]I do not even pass judgment on myself[/b]; I am not conscious of anything against me, but [b]I do not thereby stand acquitted[/b]; the one who judges me is the Lord. Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.[/quote]

[quote name='mulls' post='1263364' date='May 3 2007, 05:14 PM']We're supposed to test ourselves, and we test ourselves by scripture. We should never [b]assume[/b] we're saved, especially just because of a "born-again experience" as you say. The born-again experience does not matter. Repenting, believing, turning your life over to Christ does (justification). The working out of that (sanctification) will produce good fruit.[/quote]What in the world is the born-again experience, if not "Repenting, believing, turning your life over to Christ"? Are these different things to you? Based on the quote from Jeremiah, how can we be trusted to judge ourselves. I realize that you've repeatedly stated that others can't be sure, but it's almost as if you've made yourself the exception to that rule.

[quote name='mulls' post='1263364' date='May 3 2007, 05:14 PM']Read 1 John. He gives the test.
Look how much we can know![/quote]OK, we can "know" if we are saved if we keep the Lord's commandments. Yet, you yourself have made the suggestion that you don't keep the Lord's commandments (Quoting you: "I fear God, and I love him, so I choose to obey ([u]as best as I can[/u])."). Chances are, you see yourself as having failed the very first test in 1 John 2:3. Of course, "all fall short," as is stated in Romans 3:23, so...get ready:

[size=4][b]Everyone fails Budge's test of being "truly saved" and "truly born again."[/b][/size]

[quote name='mulls' post='1263364' date='May 3 2007, 05:14 PM']We can be assured, but we shouldn't assume.[/quote]It seems that such a distinction distracts from the question, "Can we know we are saved?"

[quote name='mulls' post='1263364' date='May 3 2007, 05:14 PM'][b]2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test![/b][/quote]
Looking back a few chapters:
[b]2 Cor 10:18: For it is not the one who recommends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord recommends.[/b]

[quote name='mulls' post='1263364' date='May 3 2007, 05:14 PM']Mateo, I cannot claim that someone else is or is not eternally secure. We can't decide that for others. We can only point them to the scripture that they may test themselves, and be assured of their own salvation.[/quote]Unfortunately, many evangelical pastors give guarantees to potential converts.

PS: Mulls and Budge, I appreciate your honesty and willingness to answer my questions. Frankly, I don't see how the inconsistencies of OSAS and eternal security can be resolved; but it is nice that you are open to dialogue, so I thank you for that.

[Mateo el Feo]

Bumping.

Just curious: does anyone believe with certainty that they pass the test of 1 John 2:3-4? This is the first of Budge's criteria to being "truly born again". For fun, let's look at the text:[quote name='1 John 2:3-4']And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,[/quote]
Let's contrast this with mulls' response:
[quote name='mulls']I fear God, and I love him, so I choose to obey (as best as I can).[/quote]Mulls, it would seem that you understand that you are unable to always keep His commandments. Yet, according to the text of 1 John 2:4, when you claim to "know God," this makes you a liar...the "truth is not in" you, according to Holy Scripture.

I'll return to my previous point: No one can be certain of being "truly saved" or "truly born again", if 1 John is the criteria, because we all fail the test.

[Katholikos]

[quote]QUOTE(Katholikos @ May 3 2007, 03:44 AM)
Astute observation, CA. If I sin, God's ability to act is suspended and no penalty will befall me -- my destiny is sealed. I'm heaven bound, regardless of my future actions. I prevent God from condemning me to hell for my sins simply by believing with a sincere heart one time that once I'm saved, I'm always saved. God becomes a hostage to my belief, because "if we commit adultery or murder a thousand times a day, we cannot be separated from God. So "sin and sin strongly," Luther advised.[/quote][quote name='mulls' post='1263367' date='May 3 2007, 04:19 PM']
are you saying that our only reason for obedience is a constant fear of hell?[/quote]

What do you think "getting saved" means from a Protestant perspective? What's the "Sinner's Prayer" all about? Saved from what? OSAS means no matter what I do hereafter, I'm ALWAYS saved from H-e-double toothpicks. "Only" is not my word, but your interpretation of my words.

[quote]I have no fear of hell, I've been justified once and for all.[/quote]Justification ("getting saved") means instant and permanent salvation for some Protestants. But not all. We really should begin a thread about the differences in the way Catholics and Protestants use language and the meaning of the terms we use. Same words, different meaning.

[quote]But I fear God, and I love him, so I choose to obey (as best as I can).[/quote]
[/quote]

That could have been written by a Catholic. "I choose to obey the commandments as best I can, but being human, and being aware that while I may be in a state of grace right this minute, there's no guarantee that I won't fall into temptation in the future. So I can't say that my salvation is assured. But I try to obey as best I can. And if I fail, I will have recourse to Confession to restore my soul so it against becomes a fitting abode for the Divine Life of God."

I'm already saved (Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5-8),
but I am also being saved (1 Cor 1:8, 2 Cor 2:15, Phi 2:12),
and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom 5:9-10, 1 Cor 3:12-15).

Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phi 2:12),
with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom 5:2, 2 Tim 2:11-13).

Likos

Edited May 5, 2007 by Katholikos

[Mateo el Feo]

I'm bumping this thread for Budge, so that she can answer my remaining questions about eternal security. Specifically, in light of the fact that no one can pass the "simple" test of 1 John.

Edited May 8, 2007 by Mateo el Feo

[N/A Gone]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1268120' date='May 8 2007, 02:37 PM']I'm bumping this thread for Budge,[/quote]

Good luck with that.

[mulls]

[quote name='Budge' post='1263199' date='May 3 2007, 01:09 PM']Totally agree with mulls here.

Hey mulls how are you doing?

[/quote]


Hey Budge!

Sorry I missed this before. I'm doing ok, trying to fight the good fight, taking some lumps along the way. Good to see you.






On another note, I've been posting at phatmass (on and off) for going on 5 years now. Crazy huh?

I'm feeling a bit full of myself right now, I think I'll make a thread about this. It's pretty interesting, all things considered...

Edited May 9, 2007 by mulls

[Katholikos]

If the Apostles had taught Eternal Security, early Christians would have believed it. There is no evidence of Eternal Security in the historical record until the 16th century and Martin Luther's letter to Philip Melanchthon, [i]"Let Your Sins Be Strong."[/i] Luther declared that:

13. If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but
the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the
true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only
imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let
your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the
victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we
are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We,
however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new
heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. [b][u]It suffices that
through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to
kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. [/u] [/b]Do you think
such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager
sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

On the day of the Feast of St. Peter the Apostle, 1521

This was the beginning of OSAS.

If the Apostles didn't teach it, Jesus didn't teach it, so forget it! It's a dangerous and deceiving doctrine of man, not God. We even know the man's name -- Martin Luther.
After him came John Calvin and his "Perseverance of the Saints," which teaches basically the same thing.

Likos