Eternal Security

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1262665' date='May 2 2007, 04:26 PM']Yes, they are.

I'm more concerned with the term 'eternal security'. It makes God sound horribly like an investment banker.[/quote]

Astute observation, CA. If I sin, God's ability to act is suspended and no penalty will befall me -- my destiny is sealed. I'm heaven bound, regardless of my future actions. I prevent God from condemning me to hell for my sins simply by believing with a sincere heart one time that once I'm saved, I'm always saved. God becomes a hostage to my belief, because "if we commit adultery or murder a thousand times a day, we cannot be separated from God. So "sin and sin strongly," Luther advised.

[mulls]

Hi. I'm still around, lurking from time to time. Had to jump in on this one.



Read the book of 1 John.

Count the number of times he says "you know" or "we know" or some other derivative of "know."

Please, seriously, do that.

It's overwhelming, and humbling, and reason to exult the Savior who actually [b]secured[/b] the salvation of His sheep on the cross.

Or did He die just to make us "savable"?

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1262780' date='May 3 2007, 12:09 AM']OSAS makes people worry about their salvation; am I [u]really[/u] saved? Was I [u]really[/u] sincere? They answer altar calls again and again. And still they worry. Some assurance. With OSAS you won't know if you were sincere enough until you die and wake up in h-e-double toothpicks.[/quote]

That was definitely my experience in the SBC. I was absolutely terrified when the preacher would speak of people not really being saved, I was terrified of dying and finding out I was wrong. I said the "sinner's prayer" over and over again, just so I could hope that I said it correctly, sincerely. Most of the people in my church had this worry, too, and one of my Sunday school teachers came up at an altar call declaring she hadn't truly been "saved" before. it never quite made sense to me.

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1262780' date='May 3 2007, 12:09 AM']Escapee from OSAS[/quote]

I like this, maybe I should put that under my name sometime.

[RezaMikhaeil]

I can't add alot to this discussion but state what I know.

Prior to being Coptic Orthodox, I was raised till my teens charismatic [four square penecostal church], then [because of the contradictions in protestantism, among other things], I'd become a Muslim, then I'd gone back to the Charismatic doctrines [just for about a year], and eventually left because of an inner calling [conscious] telling me that this wasn't the faith of the early church fathers, etc. Upon reading more into the writings of the church fathers, I'd began searching for the truth, and got depressed [and even felt cursed] because I didn't find what I was looking for, over 2 years. It wasn't until the third year that I'd found what I was looking for [Coptic Orthodox]. Thou I'd been exposed slightly to the Coptic Church, I'd denounced it because [it was too catholic] at the time.

Later I'd opened my mind and heart to it [and catholic doctrine as a whole] and found what I'd been looking for... Before learning of The Truth of the Church, I'd often felt condemned [I'd always felt that I was going to hell], and this continued until I'd met the Coptic Priest that taught me of the Truth of the Church [we used to have bible studies on the phone every friday night]. I'd onced asked him, "Abouna" [Father in Arabic], I'm struggling with going to hell, because I'm the mmost imperfect being on earth and committed horrible sins, is there any way that I can change from the dark side to God's side, and insure my place in heaven. His Answer was [paraphrased]:

Through the sacrament of baptism, we're given the remission of sins through our Lord Jesus Christ. Christmation [Confirmation in the west], we're given the promise that the Holy Spirit is going to be with us, but we're still not promised paradise/heaven. If we follow the path that Our Lord Jesus Christ has layed out for us, by confessing our sins regularly, repenting as much as possible, taking the Eucharist regularly for the remission of sins, we know that we'll see eternal life. God said to Moses that he'll have mercy upon who he has mercy and won't have mercy upon who he won't have mercy, but he also promised eternal life, to thoughs that follow the righteous path that has been given to us. Jesus Christ promised that if we take the Eucharist [drink his blood and eat his flesh] that we'll have life in us, that is promised to us! Jesus Christ wouldn't lie to us, so we should stand firm in that promise and always pray that we may not fall into temptation, constantly repent of our sins and humble ourselves, with the hopes that we may see paradise and be with Our Lord Jesus Christ and his Saints in heaven, Jesus Christ the God that we Love!

Reza

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='mulls' post='1263096' date='May 3 2007, 04:18 AM']Hi. I'm still around, lurking from time to time. Had to jump in on this one.
Read the book of 1 John.

Count the number of times he says "you know" or "we know" or some other derivative of "know."

Please, seriously, do that.

It's overwhelming, and humbling, and reason to exult the Savior who actually [b]secured[/b] the salvation of His sheep on the cross.

Or did He die just to make us "savable"?[/quote]Hi mulls,

Glad to see you. Since you're here on this thread, would you like to give a shot at answering my questions?

First, how many people in my first example were saved out of the 100,000?

Second, would you be kind enough to answer the list of yes/no questions in my last post?

Budge believes (it appears) that someone can delude themselves into believing they are born again (i.e. eternally secure), even when they are not. I would argue that such an argument weakens your belief in 100% assurance.

[Budge]

[quote]QUOTE(Budge @ May 2 2007, 02:55 PM) *
Now many people can believe themselves to be born again and NOT be.
OK, so you're saying that people can't be sure if they are really born again, even if they are convinced that they are born again? Doesn't this hint that maybe OSAS and eternal security is just a house of cards?[/quote]No its not a house of cards.

It means that people can deceive themselves thats all. Some people lie to themselves. I believe when it comes to being saved, inside most people know if they truly are or are not. Some may put a front to the world but know that something is missing.

Catholics have no assurance of salvation. In fact I feel sorry for you all living in the world of not knowing where you truly stand with God. I know I can be deceived, in fact having been UU, and Catholic, I am careful to TEST everything by Gods Word that I can and pray for His leading on everything I can.

The thing that worries me about you folks is you seem to think as long as you follow the Pope and his men that you cannot be deceived. I see deception right now via those marian apparitions and interfaith movement and I didnt need my own thoughts to disover that but testing them according to Gods Word. You seem to be preaching here, that an individual is NOT to decide anything and that your experts can tell you for sure where you stand with God.

How can one have a trusting relationship with God, if you do not even know if you have a relationship with HIm or that you can even depend on Him to hold you up? How can you develop a loving relationship even in prayer, if you have no clue if you are His child or not. I KNOW I am God's Child. There are Biblical ways to test one's salvation and I beleive that every Christian out there should test themsleves according to Gods Word, and that goes for sins, and other things that can lead a person astray.

How to know if you are born again {My comments in italics}


[quote]
INTRODUCTION

I've pondered Matthew 7:21 more than once and I know that these will be terrifying words for those to whom they are spoken. Jesus says,

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father, which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

In this verse, Jesus does not say that a few misguided souls have a false hope of heaven. He says MANY. He is talking to people who think they are Christians. Nowadays there are a lot of people who say that they are Christians who will not enter heaven. These are people who think that they are going to make it in to glory on their lip service. But when they stand before the King and Judge, they will be rejected. When Jesus says "Depart" you can't appeal and try to get a second chance, you got to go. I KNOW they will be terrified. Included here? All those who choose to "worship" God according to their own beliefs and not God's word. This includes, cultists who claim a Jesus/gospel different from the Bible, e.g., Catholics, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Scientists, hypocrites along with every Protestant denomination follower who puts their trust in their denomination, and church attendance.

To be a Christian, you must repent of your sins and believe on the Lord Jesus.

REPENT means saying, "I'm sick of sin and living my own way. I want to live under God's commands!"
[i]
{THIS WAS TRUE OF ME, I REPENTED AND I HAD A LOT TO REPENT OF, I ALSO WANTED TO LIVE BY GODS RULES}[/i]

BELIEVE means believing that Jesus died for your sins, was buried and rose on the third day and accepting His sacrifice for you. It means saying "Yes Lord! I love you! I want to serve you!" James says the devils believe and tremble--saving belief is more than acknowledging that the claims of Christ are true.
[i]
{I SPENT A LIFE WITHOUT FAITH, and was even a pagan UU denying GOD FOR YEARS, to be blessed with this, was beyond measure. [/i]
[i]
Now many of you need to pay attention to this part:[/i]
[u]
Many people think getting saved means saying, "the sinner's prayer"--that is a lie. They believe some mystical thing happens at reciting some words. No! The prayer is a confession of belief on the Lord. Romans 10:9 says,
[/u]
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, AND shalt BELIEVE in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Jesus said "Repent ye and believe the gospel." Throughout the whole Bible, we see God telling people, in essence, "Turn from your wicked ways unto me and live." (e.g., Ezekiel 33:11) This is repentance--forsaking the sin lifestyle and saying "Yes, I'll submit to God's ways". Doing some good deeds is not repentance. That's trying to be good enough and that ain't gonna work--Isaiah 64:6 says that even our righteousnesses outside of God are as filthy rags. Saying some words is not repentance. The Bible says, "By the works of the flesh shall no man be justified," so the act of speaking don't do it.
[b]
If you are a true believer, your life will demonstrate it and the Bible tells us that over and over again. [/b]For us Christians, I believe that in our zeal to stem the cults, we emphasize faith and do not put like proper emphasis on the evidences of saving faith which is a life of holiness. I can say, "I really want to go to Harvard." But if I skip school, don't do my homework, and go to sleep in class, do I really want to go? NO WAY! Anybody could see that because my actions betray my confession. It is no different in confessing Jesus. People say, "I believe Jesus is Lord," yet they curse without abandon, don't go to church, love everything this wicked world has to offer, don't feel convicted of sin, and are uninterested in the things of God. Does this person believe to the saving of the soul? Good chance that the answer is no. Is this a matter of trying to be God and determine who will make it in? No! It is a question of life and death and telling people the truth![i]

{MY LIFE CHANGED AFTER I WAS SAVED. In fact I shocked many unbeliever friends by the change in me... family as well} I am still a work in progress but I know the person I was before I was Christian was totally different[/i]

Saving faith will manifest itself in good works. Just read James, Hebrews, I John, Romans--the gospels. If no change occurs in a person's life, we have plenty of scriptures to let us know that there is a VERY good chance true conversion never took place to begin with. [b]Works do not save, but a saving faith will cause good works[/b]. Another analogy--apples do not make an apple tree an apple tree. Before any fruit appeared it was an apple tree. With time, sunshine, water and other factors, the precious fruit cometh forth. Same thing with a saved person. They have Jesus Christ within. With the word of God, working of the Holy Ghost, the brethern and time, good works will come forth like fine treasure hidden from within an earthen vessel.
[i]
{WHEN A PERSON IS SAVED< THEY ARE LED TO DO GOOD WORKS, GOD WILL EVEN TELL YOU WHAT TO DO AND YOU WILL HAVE PROMPTINGS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, Christians will be led to help inviduals and even go out on limbs to help people.[/i]

The following is excerpted from the book, "How Can I Except Some Man Should Guide Me? A Plan and Program for Bringing Children to Faith in Jesus Christ," Pastor Kerry James Allen, Copyright 1996, Fox River Baptist Church, Box 1094, Oswego, IL. 60543. This gives some good, solid evidences of a person who has been born again. Jesus said, "By their fruits shall ye know them." Examine yourself against these criteria. The article on this site Who are You? is devoted to this same topic. God does not leave us out in the dark on this thing.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

We are not saved by our works, but when we are saved, our life will certainly reflect that decision by our good works. ("Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" James 2:17.) Do you have total 100% assurance that you possess eternal life, and if someone asked you to prove it to them from a Bible, could you do it?

DO YOU SHOW EVIDENCES OF SPIRITUAL LIFE?

Following are ten evidences the true believer in Jesus Christ possesses, all from the epistle of First John. These are what Jonathan Edwards called "holy affections." Please read these pages, and ask yourself how many of these are manifested in your life. If you don't have that kind of evidence and assurance, please seek someone out who can help you, or give us a call.

"But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you ... and things that accompany salvation..." Hebrews 6:9
[b]
I. SUBMISSIVE RESPECT[/b]

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8)

Do you respect God? Is your opinion just as important or even more relevant than His? Are God's pronouncements authoritative in your life? Is Jesus Christ your Lord?
[i]
{Do you put God first and consider what God thinks about things, I know I try to put God in charge of every decision in my life, and consult with Him first!}[/i]

II. SCRIPTURE OBEDIENCE

"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him" (1 John 2:5)

Do you read the Bible daily? Do you read the Scriptures seeking to obey what you find? Are you in rebellion against God's Word or in submission to it? Do you love the Bible?
[i]
{ONE MAJOR SIGN TO ME OF SAlvATION IS LOVE FOR GODS WORD, in fact I know after I was saved, when I first opened a Bible, it was amazing....} Havent any of you Catholics wondered why all those Bible Christians spend hours and hours at BIble studies {I was in 2-3 in my old town} and on Gods Word, its not to show off, its not for social time, it is because we LOVE GODS WORD}
[/i]
III. SOCIETAL REJECTION

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him" (1 John 2:15)

Do you love the world, your money, and your possessions? Do they mean more to you than Jesus Christ and His approval? Would you be willing to give up all for Christ?

[i]{This is a biggie, are you seperated from the world, ARE YOU PECULIAR {actual Biblical term, I know I am }[/i]
[b]
IV. STEADFAST FAITHFULNESS[/b]

"They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2:19)

Are you faithful in regular fellowship with God's people in a local church? Are you able to be sparse in church attendance for weeks at a time without any real guilt about it? Do you long for fellowship with the saints in the assembly?

[b]V. SECOND COMING ANTICIPATION[/b]

"When he shall appear, we shall be like him: for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 John 3:2-3)

Are you living in the daily awareness that Jesus Christ will return for His own? Are you eagerly looking forward to His coming for you? Does your daily life reflect the fact that He may come today? Are you ready to meet Him at any time?
[b]
VI. SIN SENSITIVITY[/b]

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9)

Does your sin bother you? Do you wish you sinned less than you do? Are you sinning less now than when you first made a profession of faith in Christ? Do you enjoy your sin, or does it affect your happiness? Do you realize God sees all sin?
[i]
{When CHRISTIANS SIN, you are extremely miserable, in fact the conviction of sin totally changes}[/i]
[b]
VII. SIBLING LOVE[/b]

"We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death" (1 John 3:14)

Do you love other believers in Jesus Christ? Do you enjoy being in their company, or would you rather be with the people of the world? Are Christians your dearest friends?

[i]{yes} and once you are in God's family you recognize a fellow believer[/i]
[b]
VIII. SUPPLICATIONS ANSWERED[/b]

"And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight" (1 John 3:22)

Do you pray? Can you point to specific answers that could have come from no one but God? Do you find yourself conversing regularly with God as a trusted friend?

[i]{get answers all the time, even once got an answer to a prayer on a t-shirt--I prayed to God about if I should go to this one liberal churches Bible study, and there was a snow storm that next morning...God has a sense of humor...
[/i]
[b]IX. SHARP DISCERNMENT[/b]

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1)

Do you find it easy to sort out the claims of various religions? Do you see all religions as the same? Do you understand the doctrine of Christ? Do you believe Jesus Christ is God?
[i]
{IE every truly born again Christian Ive met, knows the interfaith movement is bunk}[/i]
[b]
X. SPIRIT AWARENESS[/b]

"Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit" (1 John 4:13)

Do you have a conscious awareness that the Holy Spirit of God lives in you? Does He teach you things from the Scriptures on a regular basis? Does the Holy Spirit convict you when you sin, or can you sin with abandon?
[i]
{this one is important as many chruches neglect the power of the HOly Spirit}[/i]


[url="http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/evidence.htm"]http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/evidence.htm[/url]

Now Catholics run down that list and see where you stand.

"YE MUST BE BORN AGAIN"

I dont care what church youre in. {Believe you will be called out of the Catholic Church once you are born again} Dont care if you become a baptist or whatnot.

Do care if you become born again.[/quote]

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Catholics have no assurance of salvation. In fact I feel sorry for you all living in the world of not knowing where you truly stand with God.[/quote]I know that I am loved by Him more deeply than I could ever realise.

That is all the information I could ever need.

[quote]It means that people can deceive themselves thats all. Some people lie to themselves. I believe when it comes to being saved, inside most people know if they truly are or are not. Some may put a front to the world but know that something is missing.[/quote]

That's a clumsy get-out clause. I have met numerous Evangelical Christians - sincere people who wanted to love God - who got into a flap over whether they were [i]really[/i] saved. This included one girl who had to drop out of Cambridge before the end of our second term because the pressure was too much. No surprise there - Cambridge is notoriously difficult to cope with. Only this girl had converted her difficulty into a spiritual problem. She still believes that she ran into all this trouble because she was not sincere enough in her acceptance of Christ. The ministers at her own Evangelical church have reassured her that this is not the case. In reply, she said - and I was in the room at the time, so I saw how much she was shaking - "How do you know? How do you know? What if I'm going to Hell?" There was no reassurance for her. According to your simple get-out clause, she was deceiving herself all those times she recited the Sinners' Prayer and responded to altar calls and asked to be baptised a second and then a third time.

But reality doesn't have a get-out clause, Budge.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

P.S. That list you've given us...where is that in the Bible? And don't all those criteria require [i]action[/i]? As in works? It seems that you have to trawl through quite a complicated shopping list to know if you are 'really' saved.

I will just stay secure in knowledge of His love and hope in my salvation, as St Paul advises.

[Budge]

Everything on that list has a Bible verse right below it backing it up.

The faith is where that stuff comes out of.

One does not earn salvation via works.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1263164' date='May 3 2007, 03:34 PM']I know that I am loved by Him more deeply than I could ever realise.

That is all the information I could ever need.[/quote]

Amen. I actually have much more peace now, because I know it isn't up to one decision I made at one point in time, but in making a decision to accept God's grace each and every day to "work out my salvation with fear and trembling".

Edited May 3, 2007 by Archaeology cat

[mulls]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1262501' date='May 2 2007, 02:25 PM']Let's have a dedicated thread to see if someone who believes in OSAS can answer.

1,000,000 people answer an altar call (note: very big church), and they recite the little "personal savior" formula.

The pastor says, "How many of you are sure that you are saved?" Let's say 100,000 answer in the affirmative. They're REALLY sure. In their heart of hearts, they just know they are saved.

Fast forward twenty years. Nobody has died. Let's be optimistic: out of the 100,000:
1) Ten people lived the most morally bankrupt lifestyle that they could, and spends their spare time fire-bombing local churches.
2) Ten people publically rejected Jesus and embraced Buddha.
3) Ten embraced militant atheism.
4) Ten became agnostic.
5) Ten became Mormons, and hope for the day that they get their own planet.
6) Ten became Seventh-Day Adventists.
7) Ten became Catholic (haha).
8) And all the rest (99,930 people!) remained Bible-believing™ Christians.

So, out of the 100,000, how many of these people were eternally secure?[/quote]


Hi Mateo


It's impossible to know. Those who truly repented and believed were eternally secure from that point on. The first 6 points would seem to be evidence that they were not regenerated to begin with. As for 7 or 8, I'm sure you would agree that it doesn't matter what you call yourself. Were there lives submitted to Jesus Christ, did they bear fruit in keeping with repentance? Those are the questions we need to ask.

[mulls]

[quote]Maybe I should ask you these yes/no questions:
1) Do you believe in OSAS/eternal security?
2) Do you believe that a person can be assured of his/her own salvation,
3) Do you believe that a person can be sure he/she has "really repented"?
4) Do you believe that a person can be sure he/she has a "saving faith"?[/quote]


1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. Yes

[mulls]

Oh and by the way, as I believe Budge already stated, responding to an altar call or saying a formulaic sinner's prayer doesn't mean a thing, if the person is not truly regenerated/born again.

They can be helpful tools, for the sake of helping people understand, and I believe it is biblical to hasten people to respond to the gospel, but these things can also be used to manipulate the emotions of people and generate 'statistics' so worldly christians can have something to boast about.

I however happened to become a Christian at an altar call response. I needed prompting, and I attribute it to the Holy Spirit.

Edited May 3, 2007 by mulls

[Budge]

Totally agree with mulls here.

Hey mulls how are you doing?

[Mateo el Feo]

You two are trying to play both sides of the fence.

On one side, you admit that some of the 100,000 people could be thoroughly convinced of their eternal security and born-again experience, yet be mistaken.

On the other side, you claim that someone can be convinced of their eternal security.

These are contradictory positions. One cannot be true without the other being false.

As for altar calls and sinner's prayers, these are red herrings in my example. I'm talking about 100,000 people who are thoroughly convinced of a born-again experience. What each of you has claimed is that one cannot be sure whether they have even had a born again experience.

[quote name='mulls']It's impossible to know. Those who truly repented and believed were eternally secure from that point on. The first 6 points would seem to be evidence that they were not regenerated to begin with.[/quote]This is a direct contradiction to your answers to my yes/no questions. Surely you can see this logical problem.

[quote name='mulls']Were there lives submitted to Jesus Christ, did they bear fruit in keeping with repentance?[/quote]Sounds like a works-based religion. But, I will give you the benefit of the doubt, as I would ask you to do the same for the Catholic Faith.

[quote name='budge']How to know if you are born again {My comments in italics}

[i](followed by a whole lot of text)[/i][/quote]Sounds like a real complicated test of salvation (over 2,000 words, by the way). Budge, I always thought that the advantage of your religion was its simplicity. I'd need a PhD to figure out if I really could pass your litmus test of salvation. Worse yet, my answer may change from day-to-day, depending on my relationship with Jesus.

Let's take the section "sin sensitivity" for a moment. I certainly pass the test most of the time: sin bothers me; I sin less; I wish I would sin even less; and I realize God sees all sin. Yet, I've had backslides to the point that: sin didn't bother me; I sinned more; I have no problem with sin; and I reason that either God doesn't care or that a sin really isn't a sin.

So, maybe I can pass your test on most days, yet occasionally I fail. Does this mean that I lose my salvation when I have failed your test?