Eternal Security

[Mateo el Feo]

Let's have a dedicated thread to see if someone who believes in OSAS can answer.

1,000,000 people answer an altar call (note: very big church), and they recite the little "personal savior" formula.

The pastor says, "How many of you are sure that you are saved?" Let's say 100,000 answer in the affirmative. They're REALLY sure. In their heart of hearts, they just know they are saved.

Fast forward twenty years. Nobody has died. Let's be optimistic: out of the 100,000:
1) Ten people lived the most morally bankrupt lifestyle that they could, and spends their spare time fire-bombing local churches.
2) Ten people publically rejected Jesus and embraced Buddha.
3) Ten embraced militant atheism.
4) Ten became agnostic.
5) Ten became Mormons, and hope for the day that they get their own planet.
6) Ten became Seventh-Day Adventists.
7) Ten became Catholic (haha).
8) And all the rest (99,930 people!) remained Bible-believing™ Christians.

So, out of the 100,000, how many of these people were eternally secure?

[Mateo el Feo]

Hi Budge, I made a new thread for this specific question.
[quote name='Budge' post='1262529' date='May 2 2007, 02:46 PM']I do believe once someone is saved they are justified for good...become an adopted child of God, etc.

Because one goes to heaven based on the righteousness of CHrist, it[u] is not based on our righteousness, merit, or works.[/u]

Santificaton of course is the Holy Spirit dealing with a Christians sin, be they in a backslidden or other state. However once someone is saved, they are not thrown over board for a sin. If a human father forgives a human child, then why wouldnt God have as much grace. There is chastisement for the Christian who sins, it is much different to sin as a Christian then as an unbeliever.

I do not think it is possible for a truly born again Christian to do the things you have outlined...that is NOT the fruits of salvation. Sure Christians can sin and I have met even people I believe who were born again led into some false places, like a saved Catholic pal in my old town, I had many long dicussions with. She was uncomfortable in the Catholic Church but too scared to leave, tried once, but mother and husband were so upset she went back into the Catholic Church. I do think the Holy Spirit will be dealing with her in various ways.
Rom 3:24 [b]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:[/b]

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 3:26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Rom 3:27 ¶ Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
[b]
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.[/b][/quote]

I noticed you didn't answer my question. I'm looking for a number, which will help start the discussion.

[Budge]

Its not about reciting the formula. There are people who answer altar calls, who want to please Mom and Dad, who do it for show, who do not truly repent, who do not truly believe.

When I got saved, I didnt know one fundamentalist Christian, except a lady I knew long distance from internet.

I got saved, because I had been told the gospel multiple times even fifteen years prior, was in the place where I needed Jesus Christ and turned myself over to Him, mind, body and soul.

Its about what happened in the heart and if the HOly Spirit came to indwell or not.

Its like being pregnant, you either are or youre not. well if youre a woman {you either have the Holy Spirit or you do not indwelling}

Remember I got taken out of the UU in one day, I dont know if I have told this story here yet, but I was NOT YET saved, I intellectually knew of Jesus Christ, but I did not have a relationship with HIm.

"Ye must be born again"

One reason I came to salvation was realizing it was ABOUT HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS< HIS PERFECTION and HIs eternal grace and LOVE which brought Him to the cross to die for us.

It had nothing to do with my goodness, my righteousness, or merits. I was a rotten sinner--actually had plenty of sins to repent of, being a UU alone was enough...that accepted the FREE GIFT of salvation.. The Holy Spirit when one becomes a Christian, truly becomes a Christian and becomes born again, does make you into a new creature in Christ.

This is not via YOUR EFFORTS.

[Budge]

If they were all TRULY BORN AGAIN....{which is IMPOSSIBLE given those BAD FRUITS}

ALL OF THEM.

Now many people can believe themselves to be born again and NOT be.

You think the priest and Pope can tell you that you are "born again" for sure?

So why question it for Christians.

Edited May 2, 2007 by Budge

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1262538' date='May 2 2007, 02:55 PM']If they were all TRULY BORN AGAIN....{which is IMPOSSIBLE given those BAD FRUITS}

ALL OF THEM.[/quote]Let me quote my example:[quote]The pastor says, "How many of you are sure that you are saved?" Let's say 100,000 answer in the affirmative. They're REALLY sure. In their heart of hearts, they just know they are saved.[/quote]This isn't about "reciting a formula." These people really believed they were saved. Yet, some publically repudiated Our Lord...but they're still saved?

[Budge]

[quote]These people really believed they were saved.[/quote]

SO what?

If they arent saved, and didnt really repent or have saving faith?

Then they are not despite their "beliefs".

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1262538' date='May 2 2007, 02:55 PM']Now many people can believe themselves to be born again and NOT be.[/quote]OK, so you're saying that people can't be sure if they are really born again, even if they are convinced that they are born again? Doesn't this hint that maybe OSAS and eternal security is just a house of cards?

[quote name='Budge' post='1262538' date='May 2 2007, 02:55 PM']You think the priest and Pope can tell you that you are "born again" for sure?[/quote]Being "born again" happens in the sacrament of Baptism. It is totally different from eternal security and OSAS, which no Catholic believes (at least not in the sense that some fundamentalists do).

[quote name='Budge' post='1262538' date='May 2 2007, 02:55 PM']So why question it for Christians.[/quote]You yourself are questioning these Christians. Quoting above, "many people can believe themselves to be born again and NOT be." Those are your words.

[socalscout]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1262501' date='May 2 2007, 10:25 AM']Let's have a dedicated thread to see if someone who believes in OSAS can answer.

1,000,000 people answer an altar call (note: very big church), and they recite the little "personal savior" formula.

The pastor says, "How many of you are sure that you are saved?" Let's say 100,000 answer in the affirmative. They're REALLY sure. In their heart of hearts, they just know they are saved.

Fast forward twenty years. Nobody has died. Let's be optimistic: out of the 100,000:
1) Ten people lived the most morally bankrupt lifestyle that they could, and spends their spare time fire-bombing local churches.
2) Ten people publically rejected Jesus and embraced Buddha.
3) Ten embraced militant atheism.
4) Ten became agnostic.
5) Ten became Mormons, and hope for the day that they get their own planet.
6) Ten became Seventh-Day Adventists.
7) Ten became Catholic (haha).
8) And all the rest (99,930 people!) remained Bible-believing™ Christians.

So, out of the 100,000, how many of these people were eternally secure?[/quote]

None. We believe that salvation does not exist outside our Faith (I do not need to elaborate to explain that others can be saved ) and we cannot even say 100%that [i]we[/i], individually, are saved so I say "none".

Now if you threw in children then I would maybe have an answer.

Edited May 2, 2007 by socalscout

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1262543' date='May 2 2007, 03:00 PM']SO what?

If they arent saved, and didnt really repent or have saving faith?

Then they are not despite their "beliefs".[/quote]Budge, here's my problem. If you go to any OSAS person and ask them if a person can be sure of their salvation, his/her answer will always be a resounding "yes"! Catholics are even criticized for suggesting that one is judged based on the state of their soul at the end of their life. Yet, you are suggesting that individuals really cannot be sure of their own salvation, even if they are 100% convinced at the time of their conversion. Maybe you just don't believe in eternal assurance and OSAS. That is the "So What?" that I'm getting at.

You're "moving the target" a little bit by referring to "really repent(ing)" or having a "saving faith." But the problem remains, what good is claiming OSAS if you reject the idea that a person even knows whether he/she has really repented or if he/she has a "saving faith"?

Maybe I should ask you these yes/no questions:
1) Do you believe in OSAS/eternal security?
2) Do you believe that a person can be assured of his/her own salvation,
3) Do you believe that a person can be sure he/she has "really repented"?
4) Do you believe that a person can be sure he/she has a "saving faith"?

It appears you do not believe in these things, but I want to be sure that I understand your answers.

Edited May 2, 2007 by Mateo el Feo

[kenrockthefirst]

The important distinction for me, as it has become elucidated through this discussion, is that salvation is based on [i]grace[/i], not on [i]faith[/i].

Salvation by faith requires some assent of the will on our part, some conscious decision, which, of course, can be characterized as a work, i.e. something that we have to do in order to be saved. As others have noted, if I believe, I'm saved, if I stop believing, I'm no longer saved. Certainly, this speaks to me of "works."

[N/A Gone]

OSAS is a nice theological mental exercise, but in practical purpose all it produces is people that judge each other and do word play "well, he must have not REALLY accepted jesus" The obvious problems are there in far as pure theodicy, but I can make the argument that OSAS is potentially damning. I have a dear friend of mine who is a calvinist with a masters in theology and he and his wife will not have children because they could not handle having a child that was predestined to be damned. Budge, your soteriology scares me.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1262631' date='May 2 2007, 02:46 PM']OSAS is a nice theological mental exercise, but in practical purpose all it produces is people that judge each other and do word play "well, he must have not REALLY accepted jesus" The obvious problems are there in far as pure theodicy, but I can make the argument that OSAS is potentially damning. I have a dear friend of mine who is a calvinist with a masters in theology and he and his wife will not have children because they could not handle having a child that was predestined to be damned. Budge, your soteriology scares me.[/quote]

Are "theodicy" and "soteriology" even words?

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Yes, they are.

I'm more concerned with the term 'eternal security'. It makes God sound horribly like an investment banker.

Edited May 2, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Katholikos]

OSAS makes people worry about their salvation; am I [u]really[/u] saved? Was I [u]really[/u] sincere? They answer altar calls again and again. And still they worry. Some assurance. With OSAS you won't know if you were sincere enough until you die and wake up in h-e-double toothpicks.

Others don't worry at all. They answer an altar call and sin as they please thereafter, with the total assurance that, as Luther put it, "even if we were to commit adultery or murder a thousand times a day, we cannot be separated from God." It wipes out all of Christ's warnings and makes the commandments null and void. It's a pernicious and dangerous doctrine.

Protestants wrangle with each other about this doctrine all the time. I have an 800-page book by a Protestant minister arguing against OSAS.

Budge, do you ever read our posts? We had that silly "born again" argument with you not long ago. Like OSAS, it's an unbiblical Protestant invention. But you refuse to face the facts.

Likos
Escapee from OSAS

[thessalonian]

I heard one of the protestant bigwigs, might have been Scroll, say that only 40 percent actuall believe in some form of OSAS.

OSAS is problematic when looking at it from the rules of logic. These protestants admit that their views of scripture are not infallible and could be wrong. Therefore they are not certain of there interpretation that gives them a certainty that they are going to heaven. Now if you are 95% sure that what you believe is %100 true do you have %100 percent certainty? Nope. When I ask this question the standard answer is "well I have faith". But it cannot be called assured.