Sola Fide

[socalscout]

Wow I have not posted here in a couple of years I think. Had to break the addiction cold turkey not to mention actually spend some time [i]outdoors[/i].

I have been forced to defend the Faith with a Fundamentalist Christian who until now did not want to [i]offend[/i] Catholics.

He quoted Scripture left and right and as I can paraphrase James and others I am sorry to say I am not as well versed as he is so it looks like I do not know what I am talking about. Also this conversation occurred while I was taking a break at work so I was armed with nothing but my wit and memory (both not the sharpest tools in my arsenal )

I brought up key points he could not argue but I could not counter scripturally. I've been to Catholic Answers but I would like to hear more from you guys on their scriptural arguments and our Scriptural rebuttals.

Any and all help would be appreciated.

Bless

[Mateo el Feo]

My most basic replies to [i]Sola Fide [/i](aside from the quote from James) would be:
1) Our Lord's judgment in the [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew25.htm#v31"]Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25:31-46. (Link)[/url]
2) Our Lord's statement, "if you love me, you will keep my commandments." In other words, if you don't keep His commandments, you don't love Him.
3) I'd cite the fact that the [i]Sola Fide [/i]argument relies exclusively on St. Paul. Our Lord's words are never used to support the argument, and most of His parables actually contradict [i]Sola Fide[/i].

As a point of common belief, you might want to establish that Catholics have always believed in [i]Sola Gratia[/i]. Here's the section on Grace and Justification in the Catechism:
[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm[/url]

Quoting a couple snippits from the Council of Trent (Sixth Session):[quote]CHAPTER VIII.
In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously.
And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

...

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.[/quote]

[socalscout]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1262530' date='May 2 2007, 10:47 AM']My most basic replies to [i]Sola Fide [/i](aside from the quote from James) would be:
1) Our Lord's judgment in the [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew25.htm#v31"]Gospel of Matthew, chapter 25:31-46. (Link)[/url]
2) Our Lord's statement, "if you love me, you will keep my commandments." In other words, if you don't keep His commandments, you don't love Him.
3) I'd cite the fact that the [i]Sola Fide [/i]argument relies exclusively on St. Paul. Our Lord's words are never used to support the argument, and most of His parables actually contradict [i]Sola Fide[/i].

As a point of common belief, you might want to establish that Catholics have always believed in [i]Sola Gratia[/i]. Here's the section on Grace and Justification in the Catechism:
[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm[/url]

Quoting a couple snippits from the Council of Trent (Sixth Session):[/quote]

Hey thanks Mateo. I also have used Christs parables as an example because it would be a waste of his breath to speak them if we are already saved. That helps alot!

[Church Punk]

Some other passages of scripture from the letters of Paul you can you use disproving Sola Scriptura are....

Question: What is the pillar of truth?....Not the Bible but the Church.
[quote name='1 Tim 3:14 ' date=' 15']14 These things I write to thee, hoping that I shall come to thee shortly.
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.[/quote]

Question: What should we hold on to when moving in the faith?...again not the bible alone, but traditions and the bible.
[quote name='2 Thess 2:14 ' date=' 15']14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.
15 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God and our Father, who hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation, and good hope in grace,[/quote]

Question: Is it acceptable to follow the traditions and heirarchy of the Church?
[quote name='Corinth 11:1-3 ']1 Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me: and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.[/quote]

Question: Why would Paul state this, if he was implying faith by Scripture alone?
[quote name='2 Thess 3:6']6 And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received of us.[/quote]

I hope some of these help.

Edited May 2, 2007 by Church Punk

[LouisvilleFan]

To me, this tired old faith vs. works debate is semantics more than anything. I believe a legitimate case can be made to say that Catholics are just as much Sola Fide as we are Sola Gracia.

I can't pull specific quotes from the Catechism right now, but for example, in the paragraphs about the Catholic Church's relationship with other Christian bodies, it says that all Christians are spiritually joined to the mystical Body of Christ through faith and baptism (for those Christians who are baptized or desire it, but some denominations like the Salvation Army don't require Baptism). Therefore, salvation is ultimately based on faith in Christ, whether you're Catholic or not.

Also, when you read about the effectiveness of the sacraments, that again is based on the recipient's faith and sincerity of heart. The validity of the sacrament is never affected, but if your heart isn't open to receiving the grace made available through a sacrament, then God doesn't force His grace upon you.

The common Catholic misunderstanding about Sola Fide is that you can "believe" in Christ and then go live a reckless life lacking any hint of conviction of conscience, and yet still be saved. That's as silly as the Protestant misunderstanding about Catholics that Baptism is an automatic ticket to Heaven, or that we can do whatever we want as long as we confess it to a priest (that is, without being sorry). This is how the two sides end up talking past each other, even though we actually agree more than we think because as Christians we are all ultimately concerned with the condition of our hearts and our relationship with God. The real difference isn't Sola Fide, but that Catholics and Protestants worship differently in response to faith.

We have to remember that Sola Fide came about in response to a period of great abuses by Catholic clergy that caused a lot of scandal. One extreme leads to the other extreme. However, if you learn what most Protestants actually mean by Sola Fide, I don't think we disagree that much, if at all.

(If you think I'm not in accord with Catholic teaching, please let me know what you think. But what I'm saying is based more the balanced understanding of Sola Fide I had as an Evangelical, which Catholicism at first seemed to conflict with, but as I learned more I found that there was no conflict at all.)

Edited May 2, 2007 by LouisvilleFan

[socalscout]

[quote name='Church Punk' post='1262571' date='May 2 2007, 11:30 AM']Some other passages of scripture from the letters of Paul you can you use disproving Sola Scriptura are....

Question: What is the pillar of truth?....Not the Bible but the Church.
Question: What should we hold on to when moving in the faith?...again not the bible alone, but traditions and the bible.
Question: Is it acceptable to follow the traditions and heirarchy of the Church?
Question: Why would Paul state this, if he was implying faith by Scripture alone?
I hope some of these help.[/quote]


Thanks CP that helps for sure!

[socalscout]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1262605' date='May 2 2007, 12:19 PM']To me, this tired old faith vs. works debate is semantics more than anything. I believe a legitimate case can be made to say that Catholics are just as much Sola Fide as we are Sola Gracia.

I can't pull specific quotes from the Catechism right now, but for example, in the paragraphs about the Catholic Church's relationship with other Christian bodies, it says that all Christians are spiritually joined to the mystical Body of Christ through faith and baptism (for those Christians who are baptized or desire it, but some denominations like the Salvation Army don't require Baptism). Therefore, salvation is ultimately based on faith in Christ, whether you're Catholic or not.

Also, when you read about the effectiveness of the sacraments, that again is based on the recipient's faith and sincerity of heart. The validity of the sacrament is never affected, but if your heart isn't open to receiving the grace made available through a sacrament, then God doesn't force His grace upon you.

The common Catholic misunderstanding about Sola Fide is that you can "believe" in Christ and then go live a reckless life lacking any hint of conviction of conscience, and yet still be saved. That's as silly as the Protestant misunderstanding about Catholics that Baptism is an automatic ticket to Heaven, or that we can do whatever we want as long as we confess it to a priest (that is, without being sorry). This is how the two sides end up talking past each other, even though we actually agree more than we think because as Christians we are all ultimately concerned with the condition of our hearts and our relationship with God. The real difference isn't Sola Fide, but that Catholics and Protestants worship differently in response to faith.

We have to remember that Sola Fide came about in response to a period of great abuses by Catholic clergy that caused a lot of scandal. One extreme leads to the other extreme. However, if you learn what most Protestants actually mean by Sola Fide, I don't think we disagree that much, if at all.

(If you think I'm not in accord with Catholic teaching, please let me know what you think. But what I'm saying is based more the balanced understanding of Sola Fide I had as an Evangelical, which Catholicism at first seemed to conflict with, but as I learned more I found that there was no conflict at all.)[/quote]

Thanks Louis but that is a post more aimed at a non-Catholic Christian because it is not my misconception of Sola Fide as it is their perceived misconception of it. I am only arguing a point to his and he clearly stated that he is going to heaven because he accepted Christ and his imperfections are masked by Christ's Sacrifice. When I asked him then could Hitler have gone to Heaven if he accepted Christ before the Holocaust he then told me he would not have been truly a Christian had he commited those actions. I then brought up the question that at what level of sin is acceptable to be considered "saved" or "masked" and who decides that to which he could not answer.

[Church Punk]

[quote name='socalscout' post='1263148' date='May 3 2007, 11:13 AM']Thanks CP that helps for sure![/quote]

Your welcome, check out Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on "Romanism" by "Bible Christians"

you can purchase it [url="http://www.phatmass.com/store/books.php"]Here[/url]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='socalscout' post='1263153' date='May 3 2007, 11:21 AM']Thanks Louis but that is a post more aimed at a non-Catholic Christian because it is not my misconception of Sola Fide as it is their perceived misconception of it. I am only arguing a point to his and he clearly stated that he is going to heaven because he accepted Christ and his imperfections are masked by Christ's Sacrifice. When I asked him then could Hitler have gone to Heaven if he accepted Christ before the Holocaust he then told me he would not have been truly a Christian had he commited those actions. I then brought up the question that at what level of sin is acceptable to be considered "saved" or "masked" and who decides that to which he could not answer.[/quote]

I'm not seeing how what he believes differs from what we believe. We both see salvation as a matter of the heart and your relationship with God, which is based on faith. It isn't the level of sin that matters, but whether the one who commits sin repents and desires to obey and love God.

[Katholikos]

I like historical arguments because they avoid the pitfalls of private interpretation of the Scriptures that all Protestants are heir to.

Sola Fide -- Faith Alone-- made its first appearance n the historical record in the 16th century. It was never taught by the Apostles or believed by any Christian before then. It originated with Martin Luther.

QUOTE

His [Luther's] "thunderbolt" idea that faith alone was sufficient for salvation came, in his own words, as "knowledge the Holy Spirit gave me on the privy in the tower."

EMD QUOTE

Source: William Manchester, [i]A World Lit Only by Fire, The Medieval Mind and the Renaissance[/i](Little, Brown & Co., 1993, p. 140, quoted in [i]TRIUMPH, The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church -- A 2,000-Year History[/i], H.W. Crocker III, Forum, 2001, p. 237. Crocker is a convert to the Catholic Church, resulting from his study of history.

Likos

[LouisvilleFan]

However, a lot of people tend to read into history what they believe should be there. Some of my Reformed friends know more about the Church Fathers than I do, but they aren't becoming Catholic anytime soon.

What exactly are you saying is your friend's perceived misconception of Sola Fide?

[Katholikos]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1264089' date='May 4 2007, 09:06 AM']However, a lot of people tend to read into history what they believe should be there. Some of my Reformed friends know more about the Church Fathers than I do, but they aren't becoming Catholic anytime soon.[/quote]

It has become popular for Protestants to proof-text the Church Fathers the same way they proof-text the Scriptures. I've seen St. Athanasius quoted in support of Sola Scriptura! As with the Scriptures, all of what the Fathers had to say on any given subject has to be read and considered. Scripture has to be read thematically, holistically, and so do the Church Fathers. And in context. The Christian Scriptures were written in the bosom of the believing, teaching Catholic Church and can only be correctly understood in that context. The Church Fathers were living in the heart of the Church and are witnesses to what she taught; they must be read in that context to be rightly understood.

Sola Fide was condemned as a heresy at the Council of Trent.

Sola Fide was born of Luther, but most of Luther's followers have rethought their theology. An accord was reached in 1997 (I think) between the Catholic Church and the Lutherans who belong to the World Lutheran Federation. It states (among other things) that [b]:[/b]

"Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works."

Since the World Lutheran Federation now agrees with the Catholic Church that we are saved by GRACE ALONE (and not by Faith Alone), Sola Fide should die a natural death. But this error is so firmly entrenched in all of Protestantism, it will go on as long as Protestantism lasts. It was one of Luther's foundational doctrines of Protestantism, along with Sola Scriptura and Sola Gratia. Two wrongs, one right.

Likos

Edited May 4, 2007 by Katholikos

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1264606' date='May 4 2007, 08:43 PM']It has become popular for Protestants to proof-text the Church Fathers the same way they proof-text the Scriptures. I've seen St. Athanasius quoted in support of Sola Scriptura! As with the Scriptures, all of what the Fathers had to say on any given subject has to be read and considered. Scripture has to be read thematically, holistically, and so do the Church Fathers. And in context. The Christian Scriptures were written in the bosom of the believing, teaching Catholic Church and can only be correctly understood in that context. The Church Fathers were living in the heart of the Church and are witnesses to what she taught; they must be read in that context to be rightly understood.[/quote]

That is the beautiful thing about the Catholic faith. If you ask a Baptist where Scripture supports the doctrine of Believer's Baptism, they'll point out the accounts of baptisms in Acts where the pattern of "believe and be baptized" was always followed. But a Catholic could flip a few pages earlier, and beginning with Genesis 1:3, show the pattern of the Holy Spirit working through water in doing God's creative and redeeming work throughout the story of salvation. How freakin' cool is that?

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1264606' date='May 4 2007, 08:43 PM']Sola Fide was condemned as a heresy at the Council of Trent.[/quote]

I do remember reading that, now that you mention it. But my question is, is Sola Fide, as the Council of Trent described it, even possible? How can someone have a genuine faith without accompanying works?

As an Evangelical, I don't remember ever believing or being taught what the Council of Trent condemned because Trent condemned unfruitful "faith," which isn't faith at all. Hence, when I was learning about Catholicism and read Trent, I totally agreed with the condemnation of Sola Fide. My understanding of Sola Fide was that we do nothing to merit our salvation because it's due to God's grace. But then, maybe I should ask one of my Baptist friends about that.

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1264606' date='May 4 2007, 08:43 PM']Since the World Lutheran Federation now agrees with the Catholic Church that we are saved by GRACE ALONE (and not by Faith Alone), Sola Fide should die a natural death. But this error is so firmly entrenched in all of Protestantism, it will go on as long as Protestantism lasts. It was one of Luther's foundational doctrines of Protestantism, along with Sola Scriptura and Sola Gratia. Two wrongs, one right.[/quote]

Wasn't there also Sola Christe? Or am I making that up? I thought there were four Sola's.