Divorce In The Church

[RezaMikhaeil]

Due to the nature of the other discussion, I'm asking that people please be mature and not turn it into an unproductive discussiion that ultimately gets locked!


[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1260965' date='Apr 30 2007, 03:59 PM']My understanding is that Copts probably do the same thing that Catholics do: they leave their church so that they can divorce.

[code]According to my experiences, it's just like that [thou I'd never known someone that left the church to get divorced]. I did know a Palestinian Christian [Greek Orthoox] Couple that was denied a divorce, despite living seperate [and infact in different countries] for over a decade. Their local priest, had been their priest [in Palestine] for a very long time and felt that they didn't fit the criteria for divorce, so denied it to them.[/code]

In fact, I was told that a problem for the Coptic Church in Egypt (where the government recognizes Church marriage laws as binding on Coptic citizens) was that those who couldn't obtain a divorce from the church would convert to Islam, with its more permissive practice of divorce. They may also convert in the hopes of winning child custody. Have you heard about this?

[code]It could be, thou I'd never heard of that before, I'm sure that it's a possiblity. I know that Muslims aren't allowed to be married to Copts, so no priest would ever marry a Muslim/Christian couple. In regards to Copts converting to Islam in order to justify their lifestyle, I'd never heard of that before, definately not. I'm sure that it's happened [as nearly ever senario has happened, just not happened much] but it's definately pretty much unheard of... so I'm sure that it's happened, just as bad things like that have happened in the Roman Catholic Church but it's just not "the norm". I pitty the person that forfeits their salvation just because they're so childish about their lifestyle.[/code]

Curiously, this Wikipedia (link) article states:I'm believe that divorce is allowed for disparity of cult or adultery, but probably extremely difficult to obtain. In any event, this just makes more questions for me. For example, does an Orthodox or Copt in his second marriage have the right to divorce because of disparity of cult or adultery? Why or why not?[/quote]

[code]It's more an issue of that it's a rare situation. Most individuals that are raised in the faith, would never give themselves over to paganism/cultish lifestyles because the Holy Spirit is upon their lives guiding them. Not saying that people don't make mistakes, it's just that it's so rare that it's almost unheard of... I know alot of people that are "sunday christians" but even those people wouldn't ever convert to Islam or other paganism, because they honor tradition [thou just not that much but enough to know that Christianity is the truth]. There's also the scripture of 1 Peter 3:1 that instructs wives [thou it could also apply to husbands] to submit to their husbands in love, so that if any of them are not believers, that they may be won over by the love of Jesus Christ.[/code]

[Era Might]

I'm not sure if you are continuing a previous discussion or starting a new thread about divorce. The Catholic Church believes that the Sacrament of Matrimony is permanent throughout life, according to the words of Our Lord, "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder" (Mark 10:9). He also says in the Gospel of Luke:

[quote]Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

--Luke 16:18[/quote]
Permanent separation is sometimes allowed, for grave reasons. But the two are still bound by the Sacrament, and are not free to remarry unless one spouse dies.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1261101' date='Apr 30 2007, 05:34 PM']I'm not sure if you are continuing a previous discussion or starting a new thread about divorce.

[code]This is continuing a previous discussion [that got locked cause of immaturity].[/code]

The Catholic Church believes that the Sacrament of Matrimony is permanent throughout life, according to the words of Our Lord, "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder" (Mark 10:9). He also says in the Gospel of Luke:
Permanent separation is sometimes allowed, for grave reasons. But the two are still bound by the Sacrament, and are not free to remarry unless one spouse dies.[/quote]

[code]I was curious as to the Roman Catholic Church's view of the scriptures:

32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."[/code]

[Mateo el Feo]

Personally, I don't think that the issue of divorce frequency is really an issue in this discussion. American Catholics are subject to the problems of the greater culture. In this case, the rates of divorce among Catholics almost mirrors non-Catholics. One reason is that this country's citizens have few legal barriers to divorce. Enculturation is much more prevalent in native-born people, while recent immigrants (e.g. Egyptian Copts) may have patterns of behavior closer to their native country.

Quoting the Catechism[quote name='Para. 1650']Today there are numerous Catholics in many countries who have recourse to civil divorce and contract new civil unions. In fidelity to the words of Jesus Christ—"Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery"—the Church maintains that a new union cannot be recognized as valid, if the first marriage was. If the divorced are remarried civilly, they find themselves in a situation that objectively contravenes God's law. Consequently, they cannot receive Eucharistic communion as long as this situation persists. For the same reason, they cannot exercise certain ecclesial responsibilities. Reconciliation through the sacrament of Penance can be granted only to those who have repented for having violated the sign of the covenant and of fidelity to Christ, and who are committed to living in complete continence.[/quote]

I don't know of a worldwide study of divorce among Catholics, but it seems that focusing on Americans isn't going to be representative of the global behavior patterns.

Then again, Christianity has never stated that Truth could be found by polling the population, or derived from the behavior of its adherents. Quite the opposite: the history of Christianity is really a story of 2,000 years of gentle (and sometimes not-so-gentle) correction of those who claim the name of Christian, yet fall short of the ideal.

So, let's focus instead on teachings; not behavioral patterns.

1) How many times may a Christian divorce? According to the Catholic Church and Our Lord, a Christian may not obtain a divorce.
2) Why do some Orthodox Churches have a one-divorce limit and others have a two-divorce limit. Is this a problem for unity? Specifically, how does this affect the claim of unity of faith and morals among the various Orthodox churches?
3) Does an Orthodox believer lose his right to divorce based on disparity of cult or adultery if he is on his second (or third) marriage? If so, isn't this arbitrary?

[Era Might]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1261113' date='Apr 30 2007, 07:42 PM'][code]I was curious as to the Roman Catholic Church's view of the scriptures:

32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."[/code][/quote]
Separation and civil divorce are allowed in grave cases. However, what is not allowed is remarriage, because the two remain married according to the Sacrament; there is no such thing as Sacramental divorce. Our Lord specifies that divorce [i]and[/i] remarriage is adultery. When he meets the woman at the well (John 4), he tells her, "You are right in saying you have no husband, for you have had five husbands, and he whom you now have is not your husband." Moses permitted divorce for the hardness of their hearts (Matthew 19:8), but Christ elevated marriage to a Sacrament. A man cannot divorce his wife, just as Christ cannot divorce the Church. The Sacrament is a supernatural bond, broken only in death.

[Maggyie]

My copy of the New American Bible renders the passage from Matthew 19:9,

[quote]I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery."[/quote]

Is this a translation issue?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1261150' date='Apr 30 2007, 06:16 PM']Separation and civil divorce are allowed in grave cases. However, what is not allowed is remarriage, because the two remain married according to the Sacrament; there is no such thing as Sacramental divorce. Our Lord specifies that divorce [i]and[/i] remarriage is adultery. When he meets the woman at the well (John 4), he tells her, "You are right in saying you have no husband, for you have had five husbands, and he whom you now have is not your husband." Moses permitted divorce for the hardness of their hearts (Matthew 19:8), but Christ elevated marriage to a Sacrament. A man cannot divorce his wife, just as Christ cannot divorce the Church. The Sacrament is a supernatural bond, broken only in death.[/quote]

I hate to disagree, but you're saying that Jesus Christ was referring in the scriptures to a civil divorce, but that isn't what Jesus said, Jesus said "divorce" and didn't hint at civil or spiritual. It could be both or one or the other, but we don't know. I think it's safer to assume that he was referencing the whole insititution of marriage.

In regards to Jesus divorcing his Bride [the church], Jesus is perfect - infallible and therefore that gives him an elevated status. Even if his bride were to be unfaithful [or whatever it may be], he has the power [that we don't possess] to fix whatever the situation maybe... human beings are much different.

Reza

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1261139' date='Apr 30 2007, 06:05 PM']Personally, I don't think that the issue of divorce frequency is really an issue in this discussion. American Catholics are subject to the problems of the greater culture. In this case, the rates of divorce among Catholics almost mirrors non-Catholics. One reason is that this country's citizens have few legal barriers to divorce. Enculturation is much more prevalent in native-born people, while recent immigrants (e.g. Egyptian Copts) may have patterns of behavior closer to their native country.

[code]I definately agree with you, church doctrine isn't dictated by statistical patterns of the infaithful.[/code]

Quoting the Catechism

I don't know of a worldwide study of divorce among Catholics, but it seems that focusing on Americans isn't going to be representative of the global behavior patterns.

Then again, Christianity has never stated that Truth could be found by polling the population, or derived from the behavior of its adherents. Quite the opposite: the history of Christianity is really a story of 2,000 years of gentle (and sometimes not-so-gentle) correction of those who claim the name of Christian, yet fall short of the ideal.

[code]Agreed![/code]

So, let's focus instead on teachings; not behavioral patterns.

1) How many times may a Christian divorce? According to the Catholic Church and Our Lord, a Christian may not obtain a divorce.

[code]It's wrong to put it to a number, because that's like picking out a second wife before you even got married to your first, "just in case it doesnt work".[/code]

2) Why do some Orthodox Churches have a one-divorce limit and others have a two-divorce limit. Is this a problem for unity? Specifically, how does this affect the claim of unity of faith and morals among the various Orthodox churches?

[code]It has to do with "need". Let me break it down better with an example: His Holiness Pope Shenouda III has forbid Copts from traveling to Jerusalem on a pilgrimage. The reason is because Muslims in Egypt accused Copts of siding with Isreal and oppressing Palestinian Muslims. Copts have never sided with Isreal but in order to win the hearts and minds of Muslims in Egypt, His Holiness said that Copts are forbid from traveling there and whoever does is basically excommunicating themselves from the Church of Jesus Christ. His Holiness did this, because Copts were being persecuted by Muslims [killed mostly] at an alarming rate and His Holiness wanted peace. Now the Etheopian Orthodox Church [and all the rest] still allow their people to take pilgrimages to Jerusalem [and even encourage it] but is this a confliction in unity? By no means... the situation in Etheopia and Egypt are quite different, so that's the situation.

Another great example is homosexuality: His Holiness Pope Shenounda III has taken a stance against Homosexuality. Why? Egypt doesn't have a problem with homosexuality and neither do the churches outside of Egypt, so why? The purpose was to "nip it in the butt" [per `se] before it became a problem, because of the liberal societies that some of our churches are in [America, Austrailia, England, etc]. His Holiness wanted to make the Coptic position very clear, before it became a problem. Feminism initially wasn't addressed in the church and in America it became a problem with women demanding that they be allowed to become Priests [not just Nuns] and from what I'd heard is still a major struggle in ulta liberal areas like California. A problem that also wasn't delt with initially and became a problem was the liberal charismatic Protestants. These individuals had [at one point] infiltrated the church and caused problems, because it wasn't delt with, it became a bigger problem then if it was delt with from the start.

Now I'm not agreeing with multiple marriage [as the patriarachs that allow multiple arent] but it's a reality of America, and the Church Patriarchs probably wanted to take a moderate stance on the issue before it became a problem in America, or it was already a problem for converts or "sunday Christians" and this was their way of handling it. I don't know all the facts, so I can't say for sure...[/code]

3) Does an Orthodox believer lose his right to divorce based on disparity of cult or adultery if he is on his second (or third) marriage? If so, isn't this arbitrary?[/quote]

[code]Usually a couple that's going through "problems", meets with a priest [and probably a bishop too] for counciling. If it's concluded that the marriage is over, or that it poses a threat to either individual, then it's usually terminated. IE: If a woman married a man that was a devout Christian and then later the man turns to Islam and is fanatical about it [I mentioned fanatical, cause sometimes Christians chose to stay with liberal Muslims, because there's an option of him converting back, etc], then usually the priest allows a divorce because of the situation. She didn't sin, the man did and he chose to give himself to paganism [much like Tertullian did in the 3rd century]. She shouldn't be punished for this man's choice to give himself over to Satan, so she's allowed to remarry [in most cases it probably also has to do with giving her children a good Christian father figure, since their blood father gave himself over to the evil one].

I don't see an individual ever getting to their "second or third marriage" because after the first marriage, the priest is going to make sure that if she ever does marry again [she may not], that it's the right decision and that it wont fail. Statistically [in America] those that are divorcing and remarrying are the infaithful beings, not the victim. Orthodoxy only allows the victim [the faithful spouse] to remarry, not the infaithful spouse [the individual that gave himself/herself over to sin]. I know in America we hear that Roman Catholics [and Protestants] have an incredibly high divorce rate, equal to that of the secular world but I'd researched that in the past a bit closer and found that most of those statistics don't seperate the individuals getting multiple marriages/divorces from those that get divorced just once.

Most of the people that are quoted in that particular statistic are the same individuals getting married and divorced over and over again, so in reality it's just the select individuals doing it, not the majority. I believe that it would be a fluke for someone to be married several times, and having been "the victim" in everyone of those divorces. Usually it's the womanizers, the infaithful women/men that are getting multiple divorces/remarriages, not the faithful ones. Usually faithful women/men that attend church regularly, take communion regularly never get divorced and if a divorce does occur, that's the only divorce and it's in extreme situations [such as husband converting to Islam] because most women that I'd known, that were good Christian women and their husbands cheated on them, chose to stay wit their husbands and just asked that their husbands get help from their priest/bishop![/code]

[Era Might]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1261249' date='Apr 30 2007, 09:17 PM']I hate to disagree, but you're saying that Jesus Christ was referring in the scriptures to a civil divorce, but that isn't what Jesus said, Jesus said "divorce" and didn't hint at civil or spiritual. It could be both or one or the other, but we don't know. I think it's safer to assume that he was referencing the whole insititution of marriage.

In regards to Jesus divorcing his Bride [the church], Jesus is perfect - infallible and therefore that gives him an elevated status. Even if his bride were to be unfaithful [or whatever it may be], he has the power [that we don't possess] to fix whatever the situation maybe... human beings are much different.[/quote]
He does make the distinction, because he strictly forbids remarriage, and says that he who marries a divorced woman makes himself an adulterer. The reason is because the divorced woman is still married, even if she has been separated for a grave reason.

While human beings are imperfect, the Sacrament is not. When a man enters into a Christian marriage, he is entering into a covenant that cannot be broken by any human power except death. The Sacrament is imperishable, which is why Our Lord uses marriage to explain his relationship to the Church.

St. Clement of Alexandria, in the late second and early third century:

[quote]Now, that the Scripture counsels marriage, and allows no release from the union, is expressly contained in the law, "Thou shalt not put away thy wife, except for the cause of fornication;" and it regards as fornication, the marriage of those separated while the other is alive. Not to deck and adorn herself beyond what is becoming, renders a wife free of calumnious suspicion, while she devotes herself assiduously to prayers and supplications; avoiding frequent departures from the house, and shutting herself up as far as possible from the view of all not related to her, and deeming housekeeping of more consequence than impertinent trifling. "He that taketh a woman that has been put away," it is said, "committeth adultery; and if one puts away his wife, he makes her an adulteress," that is, compels her to commit adultery. And not only is he who puts her away guilty of this, but he who takes her, by giving to the woman the opportunity of sinning; for did he not take her, she would return to her husband."[/quote]

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1261283' date='Apr 30 2007, 07:54 PM']He does make the distinction, because he strictly forbids remarriage, and says that he who marries a divorced woman makes himself an adulterer. The reason is because the divorced woman is still married, even if she has been separated for a grave reason.

[code]Divorced doesn't mean that they are still married, divorced is defined as:

[b][i]Divorce

–noun 1. a judicial declaration dissolving a marriage in whole or in part, esp. one that releases the husband and wife from all matrimonial obligations.

total separation; disunion: a divorce between thought and action. [/i][/b][/code]

While human beings are imperfect, the Sacrament is not. When a man enters into a Christian marriage, he is entering into a covenant that cannot be broken by any human power except death.

[code]Agreed, which is why the unfaithful is refused remarriage, while the faithful is allowed to re-marry, as they didn't break the covenant.[/code]

The Sacrament is imperishable, which is why Our Lord uses marriage to explain his relationship to the Church.

[code]God also uses the story of Hosea to explain the relationship, in which Hosea willingly took back his unfaithful wife, thou it wasn't required. Jesus Christ redeemed Isreal/The Church because he wanted to, that was his desire and he had the ability to do so... nothing more. We as imperfect beings, don't have the same abilities as Jesus Christ or the same responsiblities.[/code]

St. Clement of Alexandria, in the late second and early third century:

[code]Quoting St Clement of Alexandria isn't going to work, St. Clement also said that it's a sin for Christians to wear clothing with any sort of coloring in them and that it's a sin for a woman not to cover her whole body including face and he based it upon "the scripture". Do you suggest that we adhere to everything St. Clement of Alexandria said?[/code][/quote]

[Era Might]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1261283' date='Apr 30 2007, 07:54 PM']He does make the distinction, because he strictly forbids remarriage, and says that he who marries a divorced woman makes himself an adulterer. The reason is because the divorced woman is still married, even if she has been separated for a grave reason.

[code]Divorced doesn't mean that they are still married, divorced is defined as:

[b][i]Divorce

–noun 1. a judicial declaration dissolving a marriage in whole or in part, esp. one that releases the husband and wife from all matrimonial obligations.

total separation; disunion: a divorce between thought and action. [/i][/b][/code]

While human beings are imperfect, the Sacrament is not. When a man enters into a Christian marriage, he is entering into a covenant that cannot be broken by any human power except death.

[code]Agreed, which is why the unfaithful is refused remarriage, while the faithful is allowed to re-marry, as they didn't break the covenant.[/code]

The Sacrament is imperishable, which is why Our Lord uses marriage to explain his relationship to the Church.

[code]God also uses the story of Hosea to explain the relationship, in which Hosea willingly took back his unfaithful wife, thou it wasn't required. Jesus Christ redeemed Isreal/The Church because he wanted to, that was his desire and he had the ability to do so... nothing more. We as imperfect beings, don't have the same abilities as Jesus Christ or the same responsiblities.[/code]

St. Clement of Alexandria, in the late second and early third century:

[code]Quoting St Clement of Alexandria isn't going to work, St. Clement also said that it's a sin for Christians to wear clothing with any sort of coloring in them and that it's a sin for a woman not to cover her whole body including face and he based it upon "the scripture". Do you suggest that we adhere to everything St. Clement of Alexandria said?[/code][/quote]
There are two aspects of a marriage, the spiritual and the temporal. It is impossible to break the supernatural bond of the Sacrament except in death. Our Lord permitted the separation of the spouses, but he specifically forbids remarriage, because the two are still in a covenant relationship. Despite which spouse was faithful or unfaithful, the Sacramental bond still exists.

Marriage is a permanent state in life. The spouses should understand that before they get married. Nothing in the world can break the bond of marriage, not even the Church.

St. Justin Martyr:

[quote]In regard to chastity, he has to say: "If anyone look with lust at a woman, he has already before God committed adultery in his heart." And, "Whoever marries a woman who has been divorced from another husband, commits adultery." According to our Teacher, just as they are sinners who contract a second marriage, even though it be in accord with human law, so also are they sinners who look with lustful desire at a woman. He repudiates not only one who actually commits adultery, but even one who wishes to do so; for not only our actions are manifest to God, but even our thoughts.[/quote]
Notice that he distinguishes the "human law" from the Divine law. A civil divorce does not mean you can remarry, because Divine law does not permit it. Even though you are divorced in human terms, you are still within a covenant relationship.

The Fathers understood Our Lord's words to mean that divorce (that is, separation) is permitted for grave reasons, but not remarriage, because the Sacrament cannot be broken. This is what they received from the Apostles, and the Apostles from Christ.

[carrdero]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1261101' date='Apr 30 2007, 07:34 PM']I'm not sure if you are continuing a previous discussion or starting a new thread about divorce. The Catholic Church believes that the Sacrament of Matrimony is permanent throughout life, according to the words of Our Lord, "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder" (Mark 10:9).[/quote]
Actually it was another woman that enticed my father away from my mother. You wouldn't happen to know if the apostles had a scripture for those instances would you?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1261426' date='Apr 30 2007, 10:17 PM']There are two aspects of a marriage, the spiritual and the temporal. It is impossible to break the supernatural bond of the Sacrament except in death. Our Lord permitted the separation of the spouses, but he specifically forbids remarriage, because the two are still in a covenant relationship. Despite which spouse was faithful or unfaithful, the Sacramental bond still exists.

[code]That's not what Jesus Christ himself said thou, you're implying something that might be Roman Catholic doctrine, but isn't what the scriptures themselves say...[/code]

Marriage is a permanent state in life. The spouses should understand that before they get married. Nothing in the world can break the bond of marriage, not even the Church.

[code]That's not what Jesus himself said thou, that's what you've implied [and Roman Catholic Doctrine might dictate] but isn't what Jesus Christ's words say... Jesus Christ uses the word "divorce" for a specific reason. He would have simply said "temporal separation" [amongst other options] if that's what he meant but he uses the same word that Malachi used, when saying that God hates divorce![/code]

St. Justin Martyr:
Notice that he distinguishes the "human law" from the Divine law. A civil divorce does not mean you can remarry, because Divine law does not permit it. Even though you are divorced in human terms, you are still within a covenant relationship.

The Fathers understood Our Lord's words to mean that divorce (that is, separation) is permitted for grave reasons, but not remarriage, because the Sacrament cannot be broken. This is what they received from the Apostles, and the Apostles from Christ.

[code]I wouldn't say that "this is what they recieved from the Apostles" because St. Clement [among others] never spoke with the Apostles, if that was the case, the Apostles would be dictating that women should be required to cover their faces [as St. Clement wrote] but being how that isn't the case, St. Clement spoke his own words and thought his own thoughts. Saints aren't infallible and often make statements that apply in the sense that it's their advice or thoughts but aren't perfect.[/code]

Carrdero wrote: Actually it was another woman that enticed my father away from my mother. You wouldn't happen to know if the apostles had a scripture for those instances would you?

[code]This is what St. Clement uses as an example for his strict and extreme modesty standards.[/code][/quote]

Edited May 1, 2007 by RezaLemmyng

[Era Might]

[quote][code]That's not what Jesus Christ himself said thou, you're implying something that might be Roman Catholic doctrine, but isn't what the scriptures themselves say...[/code][/quote]This is where we must disagree. Our Lord is very clear in Scripture that divorce and remarriage is adultery, because the Sacramental bond is permanent. This is the ancient understanding of the Fathers, and is not something the Church can change.

We may have different understandings of the Sacrament. For us, the Sacramental bond is supernatural and cannot be broken. It is a permanent covenant that ends only in death. Here is the full text of Matthew 19 where Our Lord teaches on divorce:

[quote]And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?"

He answered, "Have you not read that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?' So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."

They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?"

He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity, and marries another, commits adultery." The disciples said to him, "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry.[/quote]
Our Lord never says that whoever remarries except for unchastity is an adulterer. He makes this exception only for divorce, because the separation of the spouses in grave circumstances does not compromise the permanent Sacramental bond. He appeals to "the beginning," and reminds them that the spouses become one flesh. They have been united and become part of one another. The Apostles actually recoil at this, and wonder whether a man should even marry because Our Lord's standard on monogamy is so demanding. This is clear later in Luke 16, which does not contain any exception after divorce:

[quote]Every one who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.[/quote]This was not the unique opinion of St. Justin and St. Clement, it was the universal understanding of the Fathers. I don't know what your beliefs are on ecclesiology, but for us the Fathers and the early Church do speak for the Apostles, because Tradition is the handing on of the faith, and they were only a few generations removed from Christ.

St. Jerome:

[quote]Following the decision of the Lord the apostle teaches that a wife must not be put away saving for fornication, and that, if she has been put away, she cannot during the lifetime of her husband marry another man, or, at any rate, that she ought, if possible, to be reconciled to her husband. ...as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband; she is at liberty to be married to, whom she will; only in the Lord.[/quote]Do you know of any Father who understood Our Lord's words to permit remarriage? The Sheperd of Hermas is one of the most ancient pieces of Christian literature we possess, written approximately AD 80-100:

[quote]What then shall the husband do, if the wife continue in this disposition? Let him divorce her, and let the husband remain single. But if he divorce his wife and marry another, he too commits adultery.[/quote]
Your interpretation of Our Lord's words does not account for the fact that Our Lord nowhere permits remarriage of a divorced person, and this was the universal understanding of the Fathers and the early Church.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1261538' date='May 1 2007, 05:16 AM']This is where we must disagree. Our Lord is very clear in Scripture that divorce and remarriage is adultery, because the Sacramental bond is permanent. This is the ancient understanding of the Fathers, and is not something the Church can change.

[code]There's nothing to disagree, you say that only locational seperation [civil seperation] is what Jesus said, moreover Jesus was very clear:

He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, [color="#FF0000"][b]except for unchastity[/b], [/color]and marries another, commits adultery." The disciples said to him, "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is not expedient to marry[/code]

We may have different understandings of the Sacrament. For us, the Sacramental bond is supernatural and cannot be broken. It is a permanent covenant that ends only in death.

[code]We definately differ, I side with that which Jesus Christ himself said, you side with what Roman Catholic Doctrine dictates.[/code]

Our Lord never says that whoever remarries except for unchastity is an adulterer. He makes this exception only for divorce, because the separation of the spouses in grave circumstances does not compromise the permanent Sacramental bond.

[code]... and I again ask you to resort back to the definition of divorce, not only out of the dictionary but even the Old Testament's definition of the term! Divorce means "disunion", that means the marriage sacrament is no more, ceased, gone! Jesus Christ made it very clear that if one's spouse is unfaithful, then a divorce [disunion, cease to be] is acceptable.[/code]

He appeals to "the beginning," and reminds them that the spouses become one flesh. They have been united and become part of one another. The Apostles actually recoil at this, and wonder whether a man should even marry because Our Lord's standard on monogamy is so demanding. This is clear later in Luke 16, which does not contain any exception after divorce:

[code]That's right, Luke doesn't make exceptions but that doesn't over-ride that which is written in Mathew, rather what's the big picture without invalidating certain scriptures? That which came directly from Jesus Christ's mouth right? Jesus repeated that divorce is aweful and that the only acceptable means for divorce is what? unchastity/unfaithfulness right?[/code]

This was not the unique opinion of St. Justin and St. Clement, it was the universal understanding of the Fathers.

[code]As I'd mentioned, Saints aren't perfect! I definately wouldn't call it "universal" amongst all of the Early Church Fathers, that would be a gross over exaggeration.[/code]

I don't know what your beliefs are on ecclesiology, but for us the Fathers and the early Church do speak for the Apostles, because Tradition is the handing on of the faith, and they were only a few generations removed from Christ.

[code]If that's the case, then it's a sin for you to wear clothing with colors [as St. Clement in the second book of his trilogy, wrote that Christians are forbid from wearing colors], your wife/mother/sister should be dressing similiar to Muslims with their faces covered, otherwise they're guilty of snaring men [which St. Clement also wrote about] and the list goes on... If you truely believe in honoring everything that St. Clement wrote, and taking it as fact and the universal path, then you must obey everything that he wrote. This is a difference [I guess] amongst Roman Catholics and Orthodox, we don't take everything that a Saint says to be flawless, as even St. Augustine wrote great amounts of doctrine that go against various aspects of the Church's Tradition.[/code]

Your interpretation of Our Lord's words does not account for the fact that Our Lord nowhere permits remarriage of a divorced person, and this was the universal understanding of the Fathers and the early Church.

[code]I'd encourage you to see out the scriptures of 1 Tim 5:14 [in which St. Paul encourages and councils young widows to remarry]. This is an example that remarriage is permittable. Thou being a widow and being divorced are different, it still goes against what you're saying, which is that no remarrying is permissible period.[/code][/quote]