Mormonism?

[Budge]

If you all visit my board, you can see EXACTLY what kind of church I was in. {before I moved}

Get link off BUDGE thread.

[FatherG]

I suspect I am detecting a theme and perhaps the reason Budge is really here. That is, I suspect he/she is trying to build more traffic for her/his forum while at the same time attacking our faith. Again, I strongly discourage active participation at that forum since to do so only lends credibility to a point of view that is unbiblical, historically inaccurate and patently absurd.

[Budge]

actually the links were usually removed so I havent linked to my board for months and months until recently.

Anyhow whats your take on the Mormon church.
They think their leadership is INFALLIBLE too.

[quote]to a point of view that is unbiblical, historically inaccurate and patently absurd.[/quote]

Translation>>>>>>>>>>

Dont engage those fundies, because you may actually learn something that brings the whole Catholic Church deck of cards into question!

Edited May 2, 2007 by Budge

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='Budge' post='1262429' date='May 2 2007, 09:00 AM']Anyhow whats your take on the Mormon church.
They think their leadership is INFALLIBLE too.
Translation>>>>>>>>>>[/quote]

Budge thinks she's infallible, so by the use of absurd correlations, she can't follow her own beliefs.

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='T-Bone' post='1262921' date='May 2 2007, 08:07 PM']Budge thinks she's infallible, so by the use of absurd correlations, she can't follow her own beliefs.[/quote]

edit:

That should be "...by the use of her absurd correlations..."

[Katholikos]

[quote name='jckinsman' post='1262262' date='May 2 2007, 02:09 AM']Thank you,ruso! greetings from seattle,washington! Likos.......We do not know which church budge attends?????? Was she not a baptized catholic, now rejecting the church????? I was under the impression she was! JC[/quote]

To my knowledge, Budge has said that she has twice left the Catholic Church. She rejected the Church and became a Unitarian Universalist (which lasted several years); she returned briefly, and then she "got saved" and left again. Her posts tell me that she knows little about Catholicism.

She has never revealed her denomination, as far as I know, despite having been asked several times. She is willing to tell us about the UU experience, but she keeps her current affiliation secret. I suspect it's because she knows that when she reveals the name, we'll know too much about its history and doctrines. It was probably founded in the 19th century -- maybe the 20th -- an old, venerable, and apostolic institution, right?

There are some here who have opined that Budge has started her own church, and that is a definite possibility. Her religion has been dubbed "Budgeanity." Did I get the spelling right, guys? We know she claims infallibility for her doctrines.

Budge hangs out at Former Catholics for Christ, which competes for first place as the most vitriolic, anti-Catholic website on the Net. That's where she gets most of her material. She may be at FCFC less these days, since she has her own website now (I think). She is totally dedicated to destroying the Catholic faith of any believer by every means possible. She rarely reads what any of us write, preferring to start a thread and leave, only to return again with another of her exposés.

That's my take on Budge. Poor girl, she needs our prayers.

Peace be with you, JC.

Likos

[Budge]

[quote]To my knowledge, Budge has said that she has twice left the Catholic Church. She rejected the Church and became a Unitarian Universalist (which lasted several years); she returned briefly, and then she "got saved" and left again. Her posts tell me that she knows little about Catholicism.[/quote]I was a cradle Catholics, raised Catholic, went to Catholic school, had a cousin priest and mothers best friend was a nun including my confirmation sponser. The claim I dont know much about Catholicism is a diversion because I disagree with it.

I became UU in college and was UU for THIRTEEN YEARS, not just several. I considered even a UU ministership but other things got in the way. {thankfully}

I left the UU in ONE DAY, long story, knowing Jesus Christ was Lord on intellectual level, but not yet saved.

I went back to the Catholic Church because it was where I was brought up, and I beleived it tob e Christian.

I would be there only 2 and half years or so. {even took RCIA having been confirmed as teen--i was told I only had to make confession for re-entry, to try and make decision if I wanted to stay}

I was born again and God led me to my last loved church that I miss so so much.

[quote]
She has never revealed her denomination, as far as I know, despite having been asked several times. She is willing to tell us about the UU experience, but she keeps her current affiliation secret. I suspect it's because she knows that when she reveals the name, we'll know too much about its history and doctrines. It was probably founded in the 19th century -- maybe the 20th -- an old, venerable, and apostolic institution, right?[/quote]
[b]Wrong.
[/b]
I was in an [b]independent BAPTIS[/b]T church since I was saved it was my first church. I recently moved and was very sad to leave them. Right on my board I admit this, and talk about my church and the goodbye dinner I had. The post I think is still on the front page. I am still presently looking for a good church home.

I will be visiting my old church, very very soon.
[quote]

There are some here who have opined that Budge has started her own church, and that is a definite possibility. Her religion has been dubbed "Budgeanity." Did I get the spelling right, guys? We know she claims infallibility for her doctrines.
[/quote]Nope.

Read above.

Some of you need to get your facts more straight...[quote]
Budge hangs out at Former Catholics for Christ, which competes for first place as the most vitriolic, anti-Catholic website on the Net. That's where she gets most of her material. She may be at FCFC less these days, since she has her own website now (I think). She is totally dedicated to destroying the Catholic faith of any believer by every means possible. She rarely reads what any of us write, preferring to start a thread and leave, only to return again with another of her exposés.[/quote]


I left FCFC long ago,.

I found out that that many of them were RUCKMANITES. They have a few real Christians who arent Ruckman followers there but the admins were.

I disagree with Ruckmans theology which denies even that Christ is God.


Yes I do have my other website now, which has been talked about here on another thread.

I read what you all write, just disagree with a lot

Edited May 3, 2007 by Budge

[jckinsman]

Okay that was very interesting! Are your parents still catholic? Brothers? Sisters? Did anyone else in your family leave the faith? JC

Edited May 9, 2007 by jckinsman

[jckinsman]

One more thing,....What was it budge? That one defining moment that made you turn your back on His church? Was it just to much to understand it all? To much to study (and understand) and much easier to see the protestant way of thinking? Its tough being catholic budge! There is so much to learn and grow in, you truly feel like a child before Him. I was cradle catholic also. That is why I know that you can go through all that you went through(CCD classes,school etc.) and still not know what the church truly teaches. JC

[jckinsman]

One more thing,....What was it budge? That one defining moment that made you turn your back on His church? Was it just to much to understand it all? To much to study (and understand) and much easier to see the protestant way of thinking? Its tough being catholic budge! There is so much to learn and grow in, you truly feel like a child before Him. I was cradle catholic also. That is why I know that you can go through all that you went through(CCD classes,school etc.) and still not know what the church truly teaches. JC

[Budge]

An EX UU who walked out of the UU leaving its humanism and theosophy behind, cant be fooled by the same stuff coming out of the Vatican.

I wrote this some time ago...

[quote] Quote:For the newbies. Im an ex Unitarian-Universalist. I was UU from for over 13 years of my young adult hood. Cradle Catholic, returned to Catholic Church after leaving UU for very short time then left after I was saved. Today I am a Christian in a indpt Baptist church.

The UU is an extraordinary liberal church, (www.uua.org) they do not believe in divinity of Christ and teach all religions lead to God. .

While UU, I learned at the foot of my very liberal ministers who were World Federation supporters and one interim minister was even a well known signer of the second Humanist Manifesto which said that the only way peace could come to the world was by all religions coming together for peace and by mankind giving up divisions. Sound familiar? It should. The Pope teaches that all the time too


www.CWNews.com "POPE SAYS GREAT RELIGIONS MUST UNITE FOR PEACE"


I have explained some about Uuism but one main activity of UU services, is the combining of the prayers of many religions from Hindu invocations to what is called the Great Invocation. Our services would include Hindu chants, Buddhist readings and poetry. God was taught as being present in all the worlds great religions and even the lesser ones even non-theistic Uus aspired to a notion of people searching for the same great truths in this array of false religions or an “archetype” of God.

I studied Theosophy while UU, including Wicca for short time and Humanism. I was very involved and considered becoming UU minister at age 20 but other factors thankfully got in the way. . UUs can mix a variety of religious philosophies at once, so dont get confused when I say I believed in Theosophy, paganism and Humanism all at the same time with overlaps.


I know Theosophy. To the point I even subscribed to Theosophical magazines and believed it. Theosophy teaches unity of all things, it is inherently through Madame Blatvasky, the undergirding foundations of the NEW AGE. The New Age is old--Mystery Babylon but was revived in late 1800s.

Freemasonary essentially teaches the same things as Theosophy. Unity of all religions, mankind building archeitect of new world. So when I use the Word Theosophy one can interchange the word Freemasonry. Keep in mind,--The prevailing message of Theosphy which sounds just peachy-keen to the unsaved is that of “unity”-- Unity of thought, beliefs and of the world. Religions are taught as being unified in core beliefs “All religions lead to god” and a panthestic notion of god promoted.

When I went back to the Catholic Church, I knew I wanted to Know Christ but was not saved yet. The Holy Spirit took me out of UU church in ONE DAY. I have shared this testimony with others. I was there for short time but the more I learned, the more I saw that the Pope and others were teaching same ideas I had learned in UU church. In fact as I decided to learn more about Catholicism not realizing itd leave me to an exit. I was literally shocked to see the parallels between the Pope and even Alice Bailey--big time Theosophist and other Theosophical teachings.

Alice Baily used terms like "unity in diversity" and "universal brotherhood" like the Pope meaning the same thing. She taught too that the UN would bring a new Utopia to mankind years before the WCC and Vatican latched on. I read these things in the 80s. She too called for a "new world order" just like the Pope and (see article above about Pope) that "the great religions of the world should come together for peace."


When the Pope says things like this,he is at heart a Universalist with a Christian veneer.

In fact the Pope makes this clear repeating the words often of the Vatican II encyclical “Guadium et Spes” [this same basic message also occurs in his encylical Redemptor Hominis, 13.3 ][i]
"Religious differences reveal themselves as pertaining to another order…It is possible that men not be conscious of their radical unity of religion and of their insertion in the very same . But despite such divisions, they are included in the single and grand design of God in Jesus Christ, who united Himself in a certain way with every man even if he is not conscious of it"

[/i]

Through this idea of a supposed unconscious relationship with Jesus Christ, The Pope promotes basically a panethistic Christ through all religions.

Another thing the Pope writes is that the "Seeds of the Word "exsist in all religions, that too is a very very Universalist idea. He has even said this of Voodoo, a religion that to most Christians is considered out and out demonic.
And that isnt even touching the ideas expressed At Assisi, that all religions are to come together for peace, and the sponsership of false religions praying to their false Gods. But here too, the Pope even admits that he believes all "Authentic" prayer (even that of false religions) goes to god. ...At one point the Pope goes as far to label prayers to false Gods as valid and called by the Holy Spirit
[i]
:“All authentic prayer is called forth by the Spirit, The “Seeds of the Truth” present and active in the various religion traditions are a reflection of the unique Word of God, who “enlightens every man coming into the world and who became flesh in Christ Jesus. They are together an effect of the spirit of truth operation outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body” and which “blows where it wills”.
[/i]


It gets even better. At another time the Pope writes:

[i] “The Spirits prescence and activity, “ as I wrote in the encyclical Letter, Redemptoris Missio, “affect not only individuals but also society and history, peoples and cultures and religions"
[/i]


Right here the Pope says the Holy Spirit is connected to false religions. He is at heart a Universalist with a Christian veneer. The UU church taught as over and over, that all religions go to god, they all seek an archetype of god or directly go to the spirit of God who we cannot fully understand. Imagine heaven on top of a mountain with many different pathways going there. That is essentially the message of the UU church. Even atheists are seen as HOLY in the UU. More and more this has become the message Vatican, especially via the interfaith movement.

Here is an example of a man who is said to have best chance of being the next Pope, promoting the same Universalist ideas...Cardinal Arinze’s book…The Solidarity of the World’s Religions shows that the one world religion theme is promoted Vatican Wide. Arinze considered one of the leading candidates for the next Pope writes “With reference to other religions, the Church sees a great difference between them and herself,” Cardinal Arinze said. “The other religions are ex-pressions of the human soul seeking God, with some beautiful insights” Arinze goes on to point out errors in other religions but also speaks of their “treasures”. Rather then following the Bible which speaks of children of darkness and those being led into the ditch by the blind (false religions), The Vatican promotes the Syncretistic religion of the New World Order. God is to be found in the world’s false religions.

When it comes right down to it, John Paul II and these other leaders are universalists who believe as long as someone is sincere and good they can be saved and that non-Christians can get to heaven without saving faith in Christ. The New World religion will be Interfaithism, that any religion as long as the participant is sincere are all valid pathways to God. (discovery of this book was one of the first things GOd showed me as He led me out of Catholic Church)

The Pope sums up his Universalist beliefs in this one sentence “It will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour.(*4)

(Cite for this quote--(*4) Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue-Congregation for The Evangelization of Peoples, Instruction Dialogue and Proclamation, 19 May 1991 n29; L’Ossertavore Romano English Edition, 1 July 1991, p.III).

So basically the Pope believes that people can find god in false religions and receive salvation. Just like the UUs. Just like the Theosophists, Just like the Freemasons.

Why you have ANYONE follow this leader into the ditch?[/quote]



Beyond that major issue.

1. Becoming born again got me out.

2. Reading and study God's Word starting acouple years before I left also got me out.

[jckinsman]

Well, you've spent alot of time reading and thinking on this! I really think some of the ideas that you have on the Pope and the church are being personally interpeted by you or to you! As I was reading all of it, It affirmed even more deeply my love for the church! You are saying to yourself,"what could this person possibly be misinterpeting what I was saying?" you didn't have to! I read on and I realized Christ was so good to us to leave us with a final authority. I truly know why now he says "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church". You really need some sort of authority be cause we are human. The Holy Spirit guides you to the truth ,budge? Is it possible, The Holy Spirit can guide a whole church to the truth in this world FULL of really ignorant humans? I know He can because He is God! God calls us to be one, correct?.....How is he going to do this budge?....... When the Holy Father speaks, he is kind. People hear kindness, budge! You do not like to be bulled over! Neither do others!... So how do you think the Holy Father can accomplish this is his time here that God has given him to represent Christ to his children that has never known him? Can they hear "Hey, your going to hell if you do not come to know me." Or can they hear the kindness and gentle words from Christ better? That is why I am catholic. I am human! I love what he gave to us! I too, budge was curious when I was younger what the other faiths taught. Could it be true? It is through ,the study of scripture and the tradition and the history and the best of all, Gods grace and mercy on me that I can see the truth. Once a catholic grabs on to that Grace, and truly knows. This person won't wavier from it. It's an awesome feeling! I liken' it to your" born again feeling" only a billion times better. If I could only, for one brief moment , show to you what this awesome church is though the eyes of Christ!........... Not through our eyes or" Mr.I hate all Catholics". .............................. Is your family still Catholic? Anyone? JC

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Budge' post='1269169' date='May 9 2007, 06:43 PM']In fact the Pope makes this clear repeating the words often of the Vatican II encyclical “Guadium et Spes” [this same basic message also occurs in his encylical Redemptor Hominis, 13.3 ]
"Religious differences reveal themselves as pertaining to another order…It is possible that men not be conscious of their radical unity of religion and of their insertion in the very same . But despite such divisions, they are included in the single and grand design of God in Jesus Christ, who united Himself in a certain way with every man even if he is not conscious of it"[/quote]

Budge, I look at this and see something quite different from your interpretation of it. As humans, we are all created by God, and I'm sure you would agree that Jesus Christ died for all of us. So every single person is included in this "single and grand design of God in Jesus Christ". Just because people haven't heard the Gospel yet, doesn't mean they aren't still included in this plan, because obviously God wants everyone to follow Him. It's just that they don't know about this yet; it has nothing to do pantheism.

[quote name='Budge' post='1269169' date='May 9 2007, 06:43 PM']Another thing the Pope writes is that the "Seeds of the Word "exsist in all religions, that too is a very very Universalist idea. He has even said this of Voodoo, a religion that to most Christians is considered out and out demonic.
And that isnt even touching the ideas expressed At Assisi, that all religions are to come together for peace, and the sponsership of false religions praying to their false Gods. But here too, the Pope even admits that he believes all "Authentic" prayer (even that of false religions) goes to god. ...At one point the Pope goes as far to label prayers to false Gods as valid and called by the Holy Spirit

:“All authentic prayer is called forth by the Spirit, The “Seeds of the Truth” present and active in the various religion traditions are a reflection of the unique Word of God, who “enlightens every man coming into the world and who became flesh in Christ Jesus. They are together an effect of the spirit of truth operation outside the visible confines of the Mystical Body” and which “blows where it wills”.[/quote]

But notice what he doesn't say. He doesn't say that all religions have the fullness of Truth, or are correct, just that there are bits of truth in them. Notice also that he says "all [b]authentic [/b]prayer". The question, then, is what is "authentic"? If someone is truly trying to find God, the True God, and prays in their spirit, who am I to judge?

[quote name='jckinsman' post='1269337' date='May 9 2007, 08:36 PM']As I was reading all of it, It affirmed even more deeply my love for the church! You are saying to yourself,"what could this person possibly be misinterpeting what I was saying?" you didn't have to! I read on and I realized Christ was so good to us to leave us with a final authority. I truly know why now he says "the pillar and foundation of truth is the church". You really need some sort of authority be cause we are human. The Holy Spirit guides you to the truth ,budge? Is it possible, The Holy Spirit can guide a whole church to the truth in this world FULL of really ignorant humans? I know He can because He is God! God calls us to be one, correct?.....How is he going to do this budge?....... When the Holy Father speaks, he is kind. People hear kindness, budge! You do not like to be bulled over! Neither do others!... So how do you think the Holy Father can accomplish this is his time here that God has given him to represent Christ to his children that has never known him? Can they hear "Hey, your going to hell if you do not come to know me." Or can they hear the kindness and gentle words from Christ better? That is why I am catholic. I am human! I love what he gave to us![/quote]

You wrote it much better than I could have.