Graced Works

[mortify]

JS said,

[quote]So, you get eternal life by the demands of justice, "good enough".[/quote]I don't understand what you mean here, if you mean we merit heaven you are wrong. Although in a justified state we can merit something from God it doesn't mean merit is necessary for salvation, do you see the difference?

[quote]Catholics are always saying that passage means works without God, but works with God can save you. Now, it seems Catholics are saying that works with God cannot save you either. THe last post says you do think the graced works save you.[/quote]

What saves us is this: God becoming man and meriting our salvation. We inherit the Merit of Christ when the Holy Ghost remakes into Partakers of Divinity, and we become Sons of God. What a son merits in this state will only further their glory in heaven or aid them on the road to salvation, they can't merit what is already their inheritance (so long as they remain Children of God, because strangers do not receive the Lord's inheritance).


So yes, a justified person can merit something from God but being justified means you already have a place in heaven.

[Apotheoun]

It is important to remember the overall structure of the "Joint Declaration"; for example paragraph 37 is intended as a brief statement in which the two sides (Catholic and Lutheran) say what it is that they agree on, while the two paragraphs following it (nos. 38 and 39) give the Catholic interpretation and the Lutheran interpretation respectively of paragraph in question. In other words, a Catholic must read paragraph 37 in the light of paragraph 38, which asserts that ". . . good works, made possible by grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, contribute to growth in grace, so that the righteousness that comes from God is preserved and communion with Christ is deepened."

Now, that said, I must admit that I do not really care much for the "Joint Declaration," but my disdain for it is mainly based on its superficial nature. As an Eastern Catholic I see salvation as a process of divinization ([font="Symbol"]qewsiV[/font]), which is achieved by an infusion of God's own energy ([font="Symbol"]energeia[/font]) into man, but which also necessarily involves the cooperation of the human person's own will and energy ([font="Symbol"]qelhma[/font] and [font="Symbol"]energeia[/font]).

[mortify]

Apotheon, I believe that is the West's understanding as well, although in different terms.

[Apotheoun]

The doctrine of [i]theosis[/i] should at least have been mentioned in the "Joint Declaration," but sadly it was not; and -- as a consequence -- I attach little significance to the document.

[jesussaves]

I do acknowledge, earning by justice merit to increase in sanctification/justification is not necessarily wrong. The problem, is that at the end, it seems like the catholic doctrine says you have to be good enough. I acknowledge nothing presented so far dictates that, necesarily. I think catholic theology in general teaches that, and likos' quote and thread points that out.


[quote]One effect of “sanctifying grace” is the power of merit, i.e., the capacity to win heaven as a reward. Now, if grace is gratuitous (as its name indicates), and merit is an effect of grace, then merit too is gratuitous. But how is this so? As a plethora of biblical passages indicate, there is a direct connection between works performed and an individual’s future standing in heaven.[/quote]

If they mean heaven/sanctification/justification is being put into you, I have no problem with that. And I have no problem with the idea of you get more in heaven if you've been good. The passage and catholic theology seems to say you have to be good enough, as if you're looking at an plant, (willing to take a smaller plant bc of it did what it could, younger christian), in deciding whether to buy it. The alternative prot theory would be you have to increase and grow in justification/sanctification, but you're not being picked because you are a good apple, but because of Jesus' final unwarranted grace.

You're not earning a final unmerited grace, as a free gift you're simply getting a final unmerited grace and you happened (and necessarily so) to be growing in all that all the while.



perhaps catholic theology is silent on the final grace, but that's sure what it seems like.

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1266265' date='May 6 2007, 07:12 PM']I do acknowledge, earning by justice merit to increase in sanctification/justification is not necessarily wrong. The problem, is that at the end, it seems like the catholic doctrine says you have to be good enough. I acknowledge nothing presented so far dictates that, necesarily. I think catholic theology in general teaches that, and likos' quote and thread points that out.
If they mean heaven/sanctification/justification is being put into you, I have no problem with that. And I have no problem with the idea of you get more in heaven if you've been good. The passage and catholic theology seems to say you have to be good enough, as if you're looking at an plant, (willing to take a smaller plant bc of it did what it could, younger christian), in deciding whether to buy it. The alternative prot theory would be you have to increase and grow in justification/sanctification, but you're not being picked because you are a good apple, but because of Jesus' final unwarranted grace.

You're not earning a final unmerited grace, as a free gift you're simply getting a final unmerited grace and you happened (and necessarily so) to be growing in all that all the while.
perhaps catholic theology is silent on the final grace, but that's sure what it seems like.[/quote]

I have a protestant friend who I discussed a similar issue with. We were talking about the differences between Sanctification and Justification, the role of the Spirit in atonement, blasphemey of the Holy Spirit, etc. While this conversation was interesting and useful to us, it was off the cuff and very, very informal. So, I won't share the whole thing. However, one of the conclusions we came to was that refusing Sanctification was tantamount to a rejection of one's Justification. It was not to say that we were justified by our own merit or that we were sanctified by our own merit. Rather, the will allows Sanctification in a more on-going way. The Holy Spirit provides the power and the "good" therein, so long as we continually say "yes" to Him. That's how we came to the conclusion that one "merits" Sanctification. It's not meriting in the same sense as "earning", more like "continually allowing".

Again, this is informal language that a friend and I used to come to an understanding. Take it with a grain of salt.

[mortify]

JS,

[quote]I do acknowledge, earning by justice merit to increase in sanctification/justification is not necessarily wrong. The problem, is that at the end, it seems like the catholic doctrine says you have to be good enough.[/quote]Do you mean you have to be good to receive grace? Because grace is gratuitous, it has nothing to do with our state prior to being called by God, it has everything to do with God's love an mercy. Why some outpace others spiritually is because they are more receptive to Grace, they are like the soft soil that allows the seed to penetrate and grow, or the wind that moves where ever it is directed, they totally yield themselves to God and so God works wonders through them. It is important to emphasize that whatever a person merits in a justified state is because the Holy Ghost Himself gave him the energy to do so, it is not by man's own effort because we can do nothing without Jesus. And think how marvelous that is, God gives us the grace to perform the good works He rewards!

[quote]You're not earning a final unmerited grace, as a free gift you're simply getting a final unmerited grace and you happened (and necessarily so) to be growing in all that all the while.
perhaps catholic theology is silent on the final grace, but that's sure what it seems like.[/quote]

It's not about meriting the final grace to get into heaven, if you are in a justified state heaven is already yours.