Graced Works

[jesussaves]

So I've been shown how the catholic church might not teach that you earn salvation by graced works. Most catholics think that they do though, and historically it's arguable that's what they have taught. Now, I do know that your church has condemned the idea of earning salvation with works absent grace, but they have not said anything about graced works. So, looking at the passages from your church etc, graced works is at least a possible interpretation right?

The following seem to teach graced works, though if you want to be technical, they may only teach that you have to increase in sanctification. (which a protestant would have to admit is a necessity, and if you wanted to call that requirement as part of justification, that's not so far off, sharing in the atonement, but not "earning" so much)

[quote]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/quote][quote] Treasury of Merit

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.




BASIC R.C.BELIEF

(or Treasury of the Church)

The superabundant merits of Christ and the saints from which the Church draws to confer spiritual blessings, as Indulgences. The thought is that some saints had a surplus of merit (more than they needed for Heaven). Rather than lose these, God stored them so others who have need can draw from this superabundance.

Dr. Ludwig Ott, in FUNDAMENTALS OF CATHOLIC DOGMA, paged 441, states, "By an indulgence (indulgentia) is understood the extra-sacramental remission of the temporal punishment of sin remaining after the forgiveness of the guilt of sin. This remission is valid in the sight of God, and it is granted by the Church out of Her treasury of satisfaction.

POST VATICAN II

The encyclical INDULGENTARIUM DOCTRINA, Vatican II reiterated the Roman Catholic belief in the Treasury of Merit.[/quote]

I fear Catholics are simply making excuses and twisting the words of their church so they don't have to face its realities.

Edited April 28, 2007 by jesussaves

[Brother Adam]

You can make a case that the Bible teaches Jesus isn't God when you rip it out of context, so I fail to see your point.


[quote]
CHAPTER THREE
GOD'S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE

ARTICLE 2
GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION

I. JUSTIFICATION

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35

1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36

[God]gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45

II. GRACE

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51

2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54

2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:

Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55

2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord's words "Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 - reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: 'If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"58

III. MERIT

You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.59

2006 The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63

IV. CHRISTIAN HOLINESS

2012 "We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him . . . For those whom he fore knew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified."64

2013 "All Christians in any state or walk of life are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity."65 All are called to holiness: "Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."66

In order to reach this perfection the faithful should use the strength dealt out to them by Christ's gift, so that . . . doing the will of the Father in everything, they may wholeheartedly devote themselves to the glory of God and to the service of their neighbor. Thus the holiness of the People of God will grow in fruitful abundance, as is clearly shown in the history of the Church through the lives of so many saints.67

2014 Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ. This union is called "mystical" because it participates in the mystery of Christ through the sacraments - "the holy mysteries" - and, in him, in the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God calls us all to this intimate union with him, even if the special graces or extraordinary signs of this mystical life are granted only to some for the sake of manifesting the gratuitous gift given to all.

2015 The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. There is no holiness without renunciation and spiritual battle.68 Spiritual progress entails the ascesis and mortification that gradually lead to living in the peace and joy of the Beatitudes:

He who climbs never stops going from beginning to beginning, through beginnings that have no end. He never stops desiring what he already knows.69

2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus.70 Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the "blessed hope" of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."71

IN BRIEF

2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.

2018 Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.

2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.

2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy.

2021 Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.

2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.

2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.

2024 Sanctifying grace makes us "pleasing to God." Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.

2025 We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God.

2026 The grace of the Holy Spirit can confer true merit on us, by virtue of our adoptive filiation, and in accordance with God's gratuitous justice. Charity is the principal source of merit in us before God.

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

2028 "All Christians . . . are called to the fullness of Christian life and to the perfection of charity" (LG 40 § 2). "Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none" (St. Gregory of Nyssa, De vita Mos.:PG 44, 300D).

2029 "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Mt 16:24).

34 Rom 3:22; cf. 6:3-4.
35 Rom 6:8-11.
36 Cf. 1 Cor 12; Jn 15:1-4.
37 St. Athanasius, Ep. Serap. 1,24:PG 26,585 and 588.
38 Mt 4:17.
39 Council of Trent (1547): DS 1528.
40 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1529.
41 Rom 3:21-26.
42 Council of Trent (1547): DS 1525.
43 St. Augustine, In Jo. ev. 72,3:PL 35,1823.
44 Cf. Rom 7:22; Eph 3:16.
45 Rom 6:19,22.
46 Cf. Jn 1:12-18; 17:3; Rom 8:14-17; 2 Pet 1:3-4.
47 Cf. 1 Cor 2:7-9.
48 Cf. Jn 4:14; 7:38-39.
49 2 Cor 5:17-18.
50 St. Augustine, De gratia et libero arbitrio, 17:PL 44,901.
51 St. Augustine, De natura et gratia, 31:PL 44,264.
52 St. Augustine, Conf. 13,36 51:PL 32,868; cf. Gen 1:31.
53 Cf. LG 12.
54 Cf. 1 Cor 12.
55 Rom 12:6-8.
56 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1533-1534.
57 Mt 7:20.
58 Acts of the trial of St. Joan of Arc.
59 Roman Missal, Prefatio I de sanctis; Qui in Sanctorum concilio celebraris, et eorum coronando merita tua dona coronas, citing the "Doctor of grace," St. Augustine, En. in Ps. 102,7:PL 37,1321-1322.
60 Council of Trent (1547): DS 1546.
61 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1548.
62 St. Augustine, Sermo 298,4-5:PL 38,1367.
63 St. Thérèse of Lisieux, "Act of Offering" in Story of a Soul, tr. John Clarke (Washington DC: ICS, 1981), 277.
64 Rom 8:28-30.
65 LG 40 § 2.
66 Mt 5:48.
67 LG 40 § 2.
68 Cf. 2 Tim 4.
69 St. Gregory of Nyssa, Hom. in Cant. 8:PG 44,941C.
70 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1576.
71 Rev 21:2.[/quote]

Edited April 28, 2007 by Brother Adam

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1258489' date='Apr 27 2007, 08:40 PM']So I've been shown how the catholic church might not teach that you earn salvation by graced works. Most catholics think that they do though, and historically it's arguable that's what they have taught. Now, I do know that your church has condemned the idea of earning salvation with works absent grace, but they have not said anything about graced works. So, looking at the passages from your church etc, graced works is at least a possible interpretation right?

The following seem to teach graced works, though if you want to be technical, they may only teach that you have to increase in sanctification. (which a protestant would have to admit is a necessity, and if you wanted to call that requirement as part of justification, that's not so far off, sharing in the atonement, but not "earning" so much)
I fear Catholics are simply making excuses and twisting the words of their church so they don't have to face its realities.[/quote]

Grasping at straws.

[mortify]

JS,

What exactly is the problem with graced works? If they are graced they're not really our works, are they? Isn't it clear from the bible, Faith without works is dead? Without getting into a whole string of questions is it more about the word "works" which carries a nasty connotation than anything else?

I'm not a theologian but my understanding of meriting grace is like this. God draws us to Him, He sends His grace our way and we have the God given ability to either accept or reject it (free will). If we accept the grace to accept Him that will merit more graces (that we again, can accept or reject) that will lead us closer towards being like His Son. It's a [i]process[/i], not a one time deal, and this is objectively clear. I am a revert to the Church and I'm still dealing with the effects of sins committed as a lost soul, though the inspired Word of God says that if we are Sons of God we can NO LONGER SIN... that to continue in sin means we NEVER knew Christ! That is from the First Epistle of St John, and I take the inspired writing very seriously. I must admit that I am not in the state where I'm meant to be, I can't just jump up and say, "Yup, I'm saved! Are you?" because i'd be deluding myself and that's not going to help me.

I have hope that those who love the Lord, and this is a sincere love that is willing to make sacrifices, will be provided all that is necessary to actively and habitually live in Sanctifying Grace. I can already see in myself how I have overcome so many things that I once found impossible, and this is all from Jesus, but I don't dare over step my bounds and I know I have a long way to go.

Remember friend, "nothing impure shall enter the kingdom of heaven," that too is inspired writing.


God bless

[Mateo el Feo]

Hi again Jesussaves,

I'm interested in why you've brought up a quote which is nearly identical to one that Budge cited only hours earlier. In any event, my response to her still applies. Direct quote from my previous post:

[color="#0000FF"]"We're here to teach you the Truth of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and His Church. In this case, the merit spoken of has nothing to do with salvation or damnation. Even in your quote, it refers to the "temporal punishment of sin remaining after the forgiveness of the guilt of sin".

If this is not familiar language to you, let me educate you. Saying "after the forgiveness of the guilt of sin" means that the individual has already been forgiven by Jesus Christ. A soul in such a state at the end of its earthly life would be destined for heaven.

Saying "temporal punishment of sin remaining..." refers to the process which occurs in Purgatory, in which imperfections (self-love, other attachments) would be completely removed so that a soul can enter heaven (Rev. 21:27)."[/color]

PS: I'm going to "bump" your last thread regarding confession, in order to see if you have any further comments or questions. It seems like your sources may have been either ignorant of or manipulating the history of confession. I just want to make sure you don't have any further misunderstandings.

Edited April 28, 2007 by Mateo el Feo

[jesussaves]

I should not have quoted the purgatory stuff. The catechism stuff, no one has rebutted. In fact, the rest of the catechism quoted shows only more that you have to merit your salvation.
Even mortify thinks graced works are what you have to do to be saved. People who have the understanding that it's not graced works but simply growing in sanctification are a very small minority. The actual church is pretty clear on the matter that it's the former. At best, the actual church is vague in its teaching.

Now, the difference between graced works and growing in sanctification is that all one has to do is grow in sanctification.

Here is the key I didn't make clear at the first post here. God does not look at your merits to save you. That you did something is all that matters. (which is what catholics here are trying to argue their church teaches but to no avail)

[jesussaves]

And I should add, that you did something is all that matters, and I do think you have to grow more and more. I do have to admit the point where growing more and more becomes graced works is blurry.
Remember though, apparently I'm not the only one arguing that it's not graced works...

[Mateo el Feo]

If you'll forgive me for not quoting books for a second and getting a little personal...

Like some others here, I have been a Catholic all my life. I have never been taught that my own effort will earn me a ticket into heaven. I can't explain this fact other than to say: I hope for the day of when I could enter the gates of heaven. I would enter, thanking my Lord for the gift of eternal salvation, and humbled by my own unworthiness to receive such a gift.

A lifetime of Sunday sermons...a decade of CCD...all my own study of Holy Scripture...all my searching through twenty centuries of Catholic theologians. And the message is so simple, but always the same: salvation is a gift. Maybe the key difference between you and me is that I have no need to believe the tales weaved by anti-Catholic apologists. Out of curiousity, I've listened to their arguments. At best, the arguments are convincing as sound-bites. Any deeper investigation brings out the truth, and their arguments fade away. I take my faith seriously enough that I investigate any significant challenge that is presented to me. Happily, we Catholics stand on the shoulders of an ancient Faith which has received challenges on just about every topic imaginable.

OK, so back to your question. It seems you would like to focus on the summary paragraph 2027:[quote]2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.[/quote]The key to understanding this text is: this merit is a direct result of the action of the Holy Spirit. Does the Holy Spirit not have the right to act in this way?

If you'd like to read a bit more on this subject (outside of the Catechism), I'll provide a link to St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2114.htm#3"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/2114.htm#3[/url]
Article #3 is the one of to read, though you may also be interested in #1 and #2. BTW, "condign" is defined as "well-deserved; fitting; adequate".

Edited April 28, 2007 by Mateo el Feo

[jesussaves]

So, I have posted before, that Catholics believe they are saved by graced works. Then everyone jumped on me. The more I read Catholic literature such as what you just gave me and what has been posted, the more I realize that you do teach graced works. Catholics who deny that are in denial of their faith or misguided, it seems.

[jesussaves]

Also, I do acknowledge that Catholics such as you don't think they are earning their salvation even with graced works. THey ultimately take God's grace at the end. The issue though, is that they have to merit through cooperating with grace through their works their whole life until the end, and if they do good enough, they they can merit, not so much eternal life directly, but the final grace of eternal life given they don't deserve it.

[mortify]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1258577' date='Apr 28 2007, 12:42 AM']I should not have quoted the purgatory stuff. The catechism stuff, no one has rebutted. In fact, the rest of the catechism quoted shows only more that you have to merit your salvation.
Even mortify thinks graced works are what you have to do to be saved.[/quote]

I'm a recent revert, so I may not be entirely clear in what I say, but I certainly don't believe I can work my way into heaven, what I'm saying is that we must accept the grace that transforms us into being like Christ because that proves we are God's children and heirs to what Christ merited for us.

JS,
What do you make of these inspired words:
[quote]"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, [b][u]but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven[/u][/b]. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, [b]'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'[/b][/quote]
Matthew 7: 21-23

We can't be in a state of sin and still claim to the merits of Christ,

[quote]No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. [b]No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him[/b][/quote]
1 John 3: 6


Edit: forgot to add this verse from the first epistle of St John:
[quote]But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him [b]must live as Jesus did[/b].[/quote]

Edited April 28, 2007 by mortify

[Katholikos]

[quote name='jesussaves' post='1258697' date='Apr 28 2007, 11:21 AM']The more I read Catholic literature such as what you just gave me and what has been posted, the more I realize that you do teach graced works. Catholics who deny that are in denial of their faith or misguided, it seems.[/quote]

So you're here to tell us that we do not understand our own faith, huh? [i] [b]You[/b] [/i]understand it, but we don't. Yeah, sure. What the hay does "graced works" mean? Do you mean that certain works have graces attached to them? So?

You apparently subscribe to Martin Luther's novel doctrine of Sola Fides. Is that the point of your posts? Luther "discovered" this doctrine while sitting on the privy in the tower. I'll let that fact speak for itself. His "discovery" was sixteen centuries too late to be the original Gospel. He -- and those who follow him -- teach another Gospel. "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed . . . If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you have received, let him be accursed" Gal 1:8-9. (St. Paul said it twice. He was verrrrrry serious.)

Sola Fides was not taught by Jesus and the Apostles. So why should we believe it?

Catholics do not believe we are saved by works in any form whatsoever. [b]We are saved by grace, through faith.[/b] But not by Faith Alone, which was Luther's error. Will we be judged on our works at the Final Judgment? You betcha. Just read Matthew 25:31-46. We don't want to be goats, so works are important. But works do not save us. Faith alone does not save us. THE FREE GIFT OF GRACE SAVES US.

[b]"See how a person is saved by works and not by faith alone." [/b]James 2:24

To understand Catholicism, it helps if you begin at the beginning and continue in an orderly process. You (and other Protestants on this board) have not done that, and it compounds your errors.

If you come here and post this stuff, it only makes you look ignorant. That's not a perjorative term. It means "not knowing." Obviously, you don't know much about Catholicism, but you're out to teach us anyway. : If you really want to learn, let us teach you.

Peace be with you,

Likos

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think they believe they will be judged by their works too, just not that it will be part of the final count to earn your salvation.

Edited April 29, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[jesussaves]

I've studied the Catholic faith for many years. More than just anti-Catholic rhetoric. More than just Catholic rhetoric to, though.
If you will converse with me long enough, I will teach you the error of the Church. You'll find either the error, or the fact you have to twist your church's words. If anything else, we'll find that Catholics all say something different as to what their Church believes, and maybe there's room for interpretation, but even where there's room for interpretation they disagree on where.

Graced works is a word I created after many many discussions and studying of the Catholics faith. It means you have to cooperate with grace in your works and you have the opportunity at the end to merit by being "good enough" the grace of God, because even the graced works are insufficient in themselves. But, to get that final unwarranted grace, you have to have graced works and be "good enough", as opposed to someone who does not. That's the kicker.

Protestants do not beleive you can live without works. Luther himself said we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone. That means we have to have works as a sign of our faith, and if we don't we are not saved, our faith is dead as James said. Now, luther ascribed to the whole of Christ's sacrafice being imputed, so he said faith alone. At this point, most prots would point out that you have to increase in santicifatin in the Catholic Church to increase in justification: you join with Christ's sacrafice. (and leave him to take what is lacking in the end, it seems) These prots then would not agree with you on the matter of what is a minor point to me. Whereas, I could say you "merit" having our works joined with Christ's as opposed to my prot counterpart. I don't agree with you on the point that you have to be good enough, albeit based on grace. Me and fellow prots say you have to increase in sactification, but you are not meriting anything by that in the good enough sense.

Now, if you want to say what your church means by "merit" is not what I think, feel free. The more I read though, the more you have even tried to show me what your church teaches, the more I realize that I am correct that merit in the Catholic church means you have to be "good enough" albeit based on cooperating with grace, whereas the merit I would allow is only sharing our works with his.

[Brother Adam]

[quote]If you will converse with me long enough, I will teach you the error of the Church. [/quote]I converse with many anti-Catholics through email. I've got about half a dozen conversations going, some for quite some time now. We email back and forth about once every two weeks. I'd be happy to add you to my list, you can even pick the topics. Janke_ad@hotmail.com

[quote]You'll find either the error, or the fact you have to twist your church's words. If anything else, we'll find that Catholics all say something different as to what their Church believes, and maybe there's room for interpretation, but even where there's room for interpretation they disagree on where.[/quote]

I'm sure that you are a lot smarter than I am (I'm simply a humble BA/MA theology/bible student), but I bet you $100 to any non-profit charity of your choice that I both believe the same that the Church teaches and that the Church does not teach pelagianism or semi-pelagianism (works salvation). [I should add: if you lose the bet you don't have to give any money to charity, you just have to admit you were wrong and not bear false witness against the Church in the future)

[quote]Graced works is a word I created after many many discussions and studying of the Catholics faith. It means you have to cooperate with grace in your works and you have the opportunity at the end to merit by being "good enough" the grace of God, because even the graced works are insufficient in themselves. But, to get that final unwarranted grace, you have to have graced works and be "good enough", as opposed to someone who does not. That's the kicker.[/quote]This is most certainly not Catholic teaching.

[quote]Protestants do not beleive you can live without works. Luther himself said we are saved by faith alone, but faith is never alone.[/quote]

Luther made God (through scripture) out to be liar than. As Likos quoted, we are not saved by faith alone.

Edited April 29, 2007 by Brother Adam