Question I Would Like To Ask A Catholic Too...

[Sojourner]

Why stop there? Read the whole book. You'll find in it the explanation of justification that the Catholic Church has taught for millennia. Heck, we are even the ones who followed the Spirit's leading in including Romans in the canon of Scripture.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='T-Bone' post='1260870' date='Apr 30 2007, 04:40 PM']I think its where you stand in front of the congregation and declare yourself saved or something...[/quote]
The irony that there are no altars in churches that have altar calls must be completely lost on them....

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1261659' date='May 1 2007, 12:45 PM']Read Romans chapter 3.[/quote]Budge, are you still working on an answer to my simple question above? Let's make sure you haven't forgotten:[quote]Here's my example:

1,000,000 people answer an altar call (note: very big church), and they recite the little "personal savior" formula.

The pastor says, "How many of you are sure that you are saved?" Let's say 100,000 answer in the affirmative. They're REALLY sure. In their heart of hearts, they just know.

Fast forward twenty years. Nobody has died. Let's be optimistic: out of the 100,000:
1) Ten people lived the most morally bankrupt lifestyle that they could, and spends their spare time fire-bombing local churches.
2) Ten people publically rejected Jesus and embraced Buddha.
3) Ten embraced militant atheism.
4) Ten became agnostic.
5) Ten became Mormons, and hope for the day that they get their own planet.
6) Ten became Seventh-Day Adventists.
7) Ten became Catholic (haha).
8) And all the rest (99,930 people!) remained Bible-believing ™ Christians.

So, out of the 100,000, how many of these people were eternally secure?[/quote]

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1261668' date='May 1 2007, 09:55 AM']The irony that there are no altars in churches that have altar calls must be completely lost on them....[/quote]

maybe they don't want to be "labeled". altars suggest something a "priest" would have. and it suggests a sacrifice, which we all know, Jesus ended by being the last sacrifice. besides, there would be no room for the guitar stand or wide screen..


Mateo el Feo,
i'm thinking it would depend on which part of the congregation believes in OSAS (once saved always saved), in which case, they're all saved no matter what. NO MATTER WHAT. otherwise, the bad ones weren't really saved to begin with since doing bad things is rejection of salvation. what determines that exactly? apparently no one can agree because that leads to another argument - degree of sin. some believe that all sins are considered equal. the ones that believe there is a degree, can't agree on anything concrete. so.. let's just start another church where the people who agree on things can congregate.

[Mateo el Feo]

Bumping for dearest Budge, so she can answer my simple question and show me whether she really believes in OSAS.

[Budge]

I do believe once someone is saved they are justified for good...become an adopted child of God, etc.

Because one goes to heaven based on the righteousness of CHrist, it[u] is not based on our righteousness, merit, or works.[/u]

Santificaton of course is the Holy Spirit dealing with a Christians sin, be they in a backslidden or other state. However once someone is saved, they are not thrown over board for a sin. If a human father forgives a human child, then why wouldnt God have as much grace. There is chastisement for the Christian who sins, it is much different to sin as a Christian then as an unbeliever.

I do not think it is possible for a truly born again Christian to do the things you have outlined...that is NOT the fruits of salvation. Sure Christians can sin and I have met even people I believe who were born again led into some false places, like a saved Catholic pal in my old town, I had many long dicussions with. She was uncomfortable in the Catholic Church but too scared to leave, tried once, but mother and husband were so upset she went back into the Catholic Church. I do think the Holy Spirit will be dealing with her in various ways.





Rom 3:24 [b]Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:[/b]

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Rom 3:26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Rom 3:27 ¶ Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
[b]
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.[/b]

[johnnydigit]

still iffy and no one ever knows.

if your life was good, you were saved.
if your life was bad, you were never saved since your fruits were bad.
OR
if your life was bad, you were still saved no matter what.

so what determines good or bad?

i think i may have this "saved" business figured out now. it seems like if i'm doing good, i believe i'm saved. the day i do something stupid, i'll say that i'm still saved, but i've just backslidden a little. if i do something really bad that puts shame on the community, i'll say i was never saved to begin with, and it's time to get saved! the process repeats back to being good again. i'll do what feels good that day. i get it now!

considering there had been the process of confession long before being "saved" sprung up, it seems like a walk backwards in progress. you think they would have tried to improve on confession while eliminating the priest, rather than digressing but i guess since ignorant people bought it, it's the one they push.

[son_of_angels]

In following your invitation to "read Romans 3," a passage I have read many times, I thought I would provide a brief reflection on this particular passage. I do not pretend to have greater expertise than any other here.

1. Romans 3:1-8 This passage confirms that in fact God willed that his justice should be demonstrated through those who disobey him. This is St. Augustine's exact argument in the concluding passages of the City of God, which you should definitely read. It primarily concerns the fact that the Jews benefit from the fact that God established the law, which was his paradigm of justice, but that does not mean they all participate in the fruits of that promise. Thus the law is effective in making known God's justice, but it is not a means of salvation. On the contrary, as both St. Thomas and St. Augustine confirm, in view of future sins we are reprobate, but without consideration of merits we are given the grace efficient to salvation.

2. Romans 3:9-20 This passage continues the above theme, namely that by the righteousness of the law, or any law whatsoever, one cannot be brought to salvation, because that law was designed to define God's justice, not his mercy. Hence the verce, "no human being can found upright at the tribunal of God by keeping the Law" does not [i][/i]necessarily[i][/i] mean that no one has kept the precepts of the law, only that keeping the law does not amount to justification before God for, in Adam, "we all sinned" and, in view of our sins, were condemned to separation from God. Now, Catholic doctrine does acknowledge that the punishment of original sin alone differs from the punishment for actual sin and original sin, especially in the various Councils, but this also conforms to this passage, since, while the punishment for sin is "death" there is not necessarily a punishment after the death, except for sin.
In any case, this has very little to do with the doctrine of "imputed grace." Secondly, it is not so much that we confuse sanctification with justification, so much as we wonder at what you could possibly mean by separating them. We believe that "in Christ we are a new creation" which is the activity of sanctification and by that sanctification in the Holy Spirit we are made just before God. You cannot have one without the other. This is the power of Grace. To be made just before God is to follow that verse (1 Pet. 3.21) "It is the baptism corresponding to this water which saves you now --not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience given to God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Notice the term "pledge," which means that, yes, even this justification is not itself the grace of BEING JUST at all times, but the action which makes one just. But also notice that the goal is a "good conscience" that is, to be holy which, if you check your etymology, is exactly the goal of sanctification.
Cassian notes the difference from his first conference (in the words of the Abbot) between the scopos and the telos of, in his case, the pursuit of the monastic ideal. The telos, which is the final end of being Catholic, or, in his case, being a Catholic monk, is enter the kingdom of God. The scopos, however, is that goal, the achievement of which, will result in that final end. This is, of course purity of heart, to be put in monastic terms. We might more generally call it holiness. Even so, the scopos of all the sacraments is holiness, sanctification, for which we also do works and indulgences, but the final end of holiness is in fact justification before God, or entry into the Kingdom of Heaven.

3. Romans 3:21-31 What has not been said before, namely that all HAVE sinned, is finally confirmed in its full force in these verses. This is not a statement of necessity. It was not necessary that all should sin, but that all in fact did so (or at least all whom Paul was intending to include, namely, those subject to the dominion of original sin, thus excluding all persons who did not suffer from original sin). This contingent design of God is clearly demonstrated in the passages which precede, by saying, for example, "What if some of them were unfaithful?" Catholics, together with most others, acknowledge that justification before God is a free gift. Why? Because, since we have sinned before God, there is positively NO POSSIBLE WAY which we could merit, first of all, the death of Christ for our sake, by which we are made just, and then our particular predestination, without consideration of our merits, for the sufficient grace, which makes us accountable, to become efficient grace, by which are saved. I realise that this, of course, is contrary to the Molinist viewpoint, but, even if God were to do so in light of the merit which we would obtain, it does not follow that we would even have the ability to do so without the free gift of God.
The verse "a person is justified by faith and not by doing what the law tells him to do" is only to say this, not that we should sin, in so far as even the new law of faith defines this as sin and this not as sin, but rather that, if we sin, we have an Advocate with God the Father to obtain forgiveness AND grace to overcome that sin. For, if we simply did not commit adultery and yet had no faith this would not be enough for our salvation, but if we have faith, and ACT ACCORDING TO THE FAITH (what does faith mean but to keep the mysteries of God: baptism, penance, etc.?) then when we sin we have grace to overcome it. On the other hand, the works which we do as Christians we do on the basis of faith, in order to strengthen our faith, gaining merit by them only in the free gift of Christ. Yes this is what it means when the holy Scriptures say (Job 29.14 "Uprightness I wore as a garment, fair judgement was my cloack and my turban." Now, this would not be anything, as far as salvation goes without Christ, but with Christ is it not a reflection and strengthening of that holiness the grace of which Christ has obtained for us? Even so, even the patriarchs, such as Abraham who came before Christ, were not fully justified without their expectation of the hope in Jesus Christ more than by the keeping of the Law, and by that hope St. Job was able also to wear "uprightness...as a garment."

I hope this reflection is somewhat helpful for you. Please, fellow phatmassers, tell me if I've stepped into any error.