Question I Would Like To Ask A Catholic Too...

[Budge]

[b][quote]
I guess I would like to ask a Catholic, Do you know if you died at this moment whether you are going to heaven? Do you know that you have eternal life? When I was a Catholic myself I could never say that. And even the Catholics that I talk to now think that it's kind of arrogant that you would know that you have eternal life, as if I know that I would merit it. [u]I don't know I merit it, I know that Christ's merit applies to me and that's why I get it, so it wouldn't be arrogant from where I sit. But even that they would think that it was arrogant makes the point that it isn't all Christ that's doing this, in their view, that we're the ones who are meriting it and we will only know at the end of our lives. So the merit in this sense is keeping or adding to the score, as it were, and then we know after it's all over when we add up the points to see if we have a score that qualifies us for heaven. And if we do, we'd say that Christ did that through us.[/u][/quote][/b]

[mod]Hi, we don't link to anti-Catholic websites which misconstrue Catholic teaching and use strawman arguments to say that we believe that we earn salvation, which we don't believe. -Raphael[/mod]
[b][quote]That's why the Christians were so excited--forgiveness was available and they became inheritors of eternal life. They were not excited because now Jesus could help them work to Heaven.[/quote][/b]

This is a great article, says in a better way what Catholics here all need to know.

[N/A Gone]

Didnt Thomas say something about assent without thinking?

(*sorry I linked the cite, I knew of it at my bible school, but it is not credible as we have seen here) is a cute site btw. I love how they feel they are the classic christianity. It is one thing for a protestant to be naive to history, or to even throw it all in the trash. But to actually think they are the classic orthodox understanding of christianty is laughable at best.


The "points" system is not the catholic system of soteriology. Augustine would have thrown something large and messy at you. Considering the entire article is based on that idea, as well as a polemic exegesis of paul. I would like to understand the point you are actually trying to get at.

Edited April 26, 2007 by Revprodeji

[dairygirl4u2c]

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life" 1 John 5:13

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]I guess I would like to ask a Catholic, Do you know if you died at this moment whether you are going to heaven? Do you know that you have eternal life?[/quote]No. And no. Here are the questions that fundamentalists should be asking: "Do you know that you are loved? And do you know if you died at this moment whether you would die in love?"

I could answer yes to both of those things. These are the relevant questions, the crucial questions. There is nothing more I need to know.

[quote]I don't know I merit it, I know that Christ's merit applies to me and that's why I get it, so it wouldn't be arrogant from where I sit.[/quote]

I know that Christ's merit is more than a Band-Aid. I know that it is not something to be stuck to the filthy and bleeding sores of my own sin as a way of disguising my flaws. I know that Christ's merit is a transformative and glorious power that is working in my soul as I type and that will continue to work in me unless I choose to walk away from Him. I know that real love is hinged on preferment, the ability to choose one thing over another, and therefore my love for Christ would mean nothing if I did not have te free choice to leave or to stay.

I cannot know that I am saved. But I can know that I am loved - and I can choose to respond with all my heart.

[quote]But even that they would think that it was arrogant makes the point that it isn't all Christ that's doing this, in their view, that we're the ones who are meriting it and we will only know at the end of our lives.[/quote]No, it means that they have great respect for a person's freedom of will, that God-given gift.

[quote]So the merit in this sense is keeping or adding to the score, as it were, and then we know after it's all over when we add up the points to see if we have a score that qualifies us for heaven. And if we do, we'd say that Christ did that through us.[/quote]

I don't do good things for the sake of getting to Heaven. I do good things purely because they are good. This is where Catholics differ sharply from fundamentalist Protestants: the fundamentalist believes that Heaven is a reward that comes when you sign on the dotted line. The Catholic believes that Heaven is something you become as well as a tangible place.

Edited April 26, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Double post.

Edited April 26, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Winchester]

It's said time and again that we don't believe we earn salvation. What in the Catechism makes you believe that we, by our actions, earn salvation? Since none of us believe that, we obviously don't interpret the passages in the same way.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1257031' date='Apr 26 2007, 03:28 PM']It's said time and again that we don't believe we earn salvation. What in the Catechism makes you believe that we, by our actions, earn salvation? Since none of us believe that, we obviously don't interpret the passages in the same way.[/quote]
Silly Winchester


it's not what we ACTUALLY believe that matters to Budge

it's what she THINKS we believe

This is because she can't win in an argument about what we ACTUALLY believe (witness all the threads she's "lost interest" in). But if she makes up some off-the-wall belief and labels it Catholic, she doesn't have to deal with what we really believe.

[mortify]

[quote]Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. [b]The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous[/b]. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 [b]Those who are born of God will not continue to sin[/b], because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Those who do not do what is right are not God's children; nor are those who do not love their brothers and sisters.[/quote]
1 John 3:7-10

[quote]No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. [b]No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him[/b][/quote]
1 John 3: 6

[quote]But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him [b]must live as Jesus did[/b].[/quote]

Regarding Heaven:
[quote][b]Nothing impure will ever enter it[/b], nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.[/quote]
Revelations 21:27


Humbling, no?

Edited April 26, 2007 by mortify

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1257038' date='Apr 26 2007, 02:32 PM']Silly Winchester
it's not what we ACTUALLY believe that matters to Budge

it's what she THINKS we believe

This is because she can't win in an argument about what we ACTUALLY believe (witness all the threads she's "lost interest" in). But if she makes up some off-the-wall belief and labels it Catholic, she doesn't have to deal with what we really believe.[/quote]


Maybe she uses personal interpretation of the Catechism just as she does for the Bible?

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]Maybe she uses personal interpretation of the Catechism just as she does for the Bible?[/quote]

You can't interpret the interpretation - at least, I don't think you can.

[Guest T-Bone]

You can't get Sola Scriptora from the Bible either, but that doesn't stop people from trying.

[Mateo el Feo]

Here's my example:

1,000,000 people answer an altar call (note: very big church), and they recite the little "personal savior" formula.

The pastor says, "How many of you are sure that you are saved?" Let's say 100,000 answer in the affirmative. They're REALLY sure. In their heart of hearts, they just know.

Fast forward twenty years. Nobody has died. Let's be optimistic: out of the 100,000:
1) Ten people lived the most morally bankrupt lifestyle that they could, and spends their spare time fire-bombing local churches.
2) Ten people publically rejected Jesus and embraced Buddha.
3) Ten embraced militant atheism.
4) Ten became agnostic.
5) Ten became Mormons, and hope for the day that they get their own planet.
6) Ten became Seventh-Day Adventists.
7) Ten became Catholic (haha).
8) And all the rest (99,930 people!) remained Bible-believing (tm) Christians.

So, out of the 100,000, how many of these people were eternally secure?

[Budge]

[quote]OTE(Winchester @ Apr 26 2007, 03:28 PM) *
It's said time and again that we don't believe we earn salvation. What in the Catechism makes you believe that we, by our actions, earn salvation? Since none of us believe that, we obviously don't interpret the passages in the same way.[/quote]You really need to learn what your own church teaches...

Catechism of the Catholic Church

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. [b]Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.[/b]

The sad thing about Catholicism is that what Jesus did on the cross is seen as only making salvation possible, [opening the door to its possiblity] While Christians believe that God eradicates all of their sins by covering them with the blood of Christ [past, present and future], the Catholic has to worry about the next sin down the pike, clean one minute after confession and dirty the next and getting "clean-ups" via sacraments. The cross remains only an entry point in that system instead of Christ being the author and finisher of anyone's salvation.

Also here is something from Catholic teaching that PROVES you do BELIEVE you EARN salvation...
[quote]
Treasury of Merit

BASIC R.C.BELIEF

(or Treasury of the Church)

The superabundant merits of Christ and the saints from which the Church draws to confer spiritual blessings, as Indulgences. [b]The thought is that some saints had a surplus of merit (more than they needed for Heaven). Rather than lose these, God stored them so others who have need can draw from this superabundance.
[/b]
Dr. Ludwig Ott, in FUNDAMENTALS OF CATHOLIC DOGMA, paged 441, states, "By an indulgence (indulgentia) is understood the extra-sacramental remission of the temporal punishment of sin remaining after the forgiveness of the guilt of sin. This remission is valid in the sight of God, and it is granted by the Church out of Her treasury of satisfaction.

POST VATICAN II

The encyclical INDULGENTARIUM DOCTRINA, Vatican II reiterated the Roman Catholic belief in the Treasury of Merit.[/quote]

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1257839' date='Apr 27 2007, 11:44 AM']While Christians believe that God eradicates all of their sins by covering them with the blood of Christ [past, present and future][/quote]Actually, eradication isn't the right term. Protestants tend to hold a theology in which God "covers" their sins (as you yourself wrote) . The "pile of dung" remains, and these poor Protestants think of themselves as a pile of dung with a white sheet over it. Catholics believe that God's grace washes us clean; it's not a mere "legal declaration" that is opposed to reality (i.e. the Protestant view). Dung doesn't enter into heaven, even if a white sheet is covering it. I'm much happier (and convinced) in accepting the Catholic (i.e. Biblical) truth that we are [i]washed [/i]by the Blood of Christ rather than being covered, because Catholic theology recognizes that Our Lord can penetrate deep inside of our very being.

[quote name='Budge' post='1257839' date='Apr 27 2007, 11:44 AM']Also here is something from Catholic teaching that PROVES you do BELIEVE you EARN salvation...[/quote]We're here to teach you the Truth of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and His Church. In this case, the merit spoken of has nothing to do with salvation or damnation. Even in your quote, it refers to the "temporal punishment of sin remaining after the forgiveness of the guilt of sin".

If this is not familiar language to you, let me educate you. Saying "after the forgiveness of the guilt of sin" means that the individual has already been forgiven by Jesus Christ. A soul in such a state at the end of its earthly life would be destined for heaven.

Saying "temporal punishment of sin remaining..." refers to the process which occurs in Purgatory, in which imperfections (self-love, other attachments) would be completely removed so that a soul can enter heaven (Rev. 21:27).

[Mateo el Feo]

PS: Budge, please answer my question from yesterday.