Why Europeans Left The Catholic Church

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]You dont even believe the church is the same thing that I do. [/quote]I know, and I thank God for that.

[quote]You see it as your church instituation with its priests, buildings, Masses, nuns, Pope, people, I know the church is really the ekklesia...[called out one] EVERY PERSON who is truly born again--under the blood of Christ {not just Baptists} "Church" for me can be getting together with acouple Christian friends in prayer[/quote]

No one on Phatmass has ever said that we see the Church in this way. This is simply what you have [i]decided[/i] that we see her as. As you consider yourself able to rewrite the definition of [i]ekklesia[/i] (in clear contradiction to Scripture - and that reminds me, you never did get back to Raphael in that debate about the nature of the Church...) it's no surprise to me that you think you're able to define Catholicism, label it, and say to a website full of faithful Catholics, "This is what you believe in."

Again, it won't work here.

[quote]What is a Catholic to do if there was no more Mass, buildings, sacraments or more.[/quote]

I lived in a country where there is no Mass, no buildings, no sacraments for most of my life. I often went six months at a time without attending Mass. Sometimes I didn't even have access to a Bible. And you know what? My faith was strong and constant throughout. Catholics believe (and we have repeatedly told you) that God is not bound by the sacraments. His merciful love is not restricted by anything. He has chosen to give us Himself through the sacraments, it is true, but this does not mean that he can't come to us in any other way.

[Budge]

A lot of this has to do with the above I mention and [b]also the church tax, church and state married together to demand a certain percentage of people. [/b]So wonder there is resentment and departure.



[url="http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-churches22apr22,0,3267911.story"]http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/wo...0,3267911.story[/url]
[quote]Bell tolls for Germany's churches
As Catholic and Protestant congregations decline, many houses of worship are being shut or converted to other uses.
By Jeffrey Fleishman, Times Staff Writer
April 22, 2007

BRIEST, GERMANY — The tombstones in the graveyard are polished, but the village church, which counted only three Sunday regulars, was cracked and water-stained when it was sold for $10,000 to an aspiring filmmaker, who hung a poster of musician Lou Reed beyond the vestibule.

The altar was stripped. Icons and pews were carted off with the steeple bell. It's hard to be precise about when things started going bad, but the church's slide began after old pastor Giebler died during the German reunification and a once secure village frayed in the whirl of newfound freedom.

"When the political change happened, there was a huge atomization," said the new owner, Juliane Beer, who as a child attended services here with her grandmother. "This village had a grocery, a post office, buses going by, but now it's all gone, kaput. A church has been on this site since the 13th century. The only thing left are memories. Six years ago, a friend of my grandmother's died in this church during Christmas Mass."

Beer looked around. Her bed is in the choir loft and there's an espresso machine where the hymnals used to be; the arched windows are clear but they rattle; cobwebs shimmy on fading whitewashed walls.

"Jesus is gone," she said. "I'd like to turn it into a studio for artists."

The village church is struggling for relevance in modern Europe. The continent is rooted in Christianity, but devotion is ebbing and church attendance has dropped steadily for years. In Germany and other nations, Protestant and Roman Catholic churches are selling properties or leasing them to other religious groups, especially in cities and villages where structures are left vacant as shrinking congregations merge.



Secular conversions

Churches have been reinvented as restaurants, coffee houses, clubs, apartments and music halls. Some have kept their frescoes and stained glass; others have been de-sanctified, yet their unmistakable facades and architecture leave an imprint of the holy on even the most capitalist of endeavors.

The churches of Europe have endured wars, plagues and much else, and although the current crisis is likely to pass, the image of the church is being significantly altered.

South of Briest, past asparagus fields and cattle, Christiane Beutel, the pastor of the Lutheran Church in the fishing village of Plaue, opened a church ledger from 1650. Written with ink and quill and held together by tape, the pages note the baptisms and deaths and the works of those whose bones have since turned to dust in the cemetery outside.

"There's a trend in Germany and people are saying they don't want to devote themselves to anything fixed, whether it be a church or a political party," Beutel said. "They just want to live their lives and have fun. I think this comes from a collective disappointment that things didn't turn out like people thought and illusions were shattered after communism fell."

Tight church budgets mean Beutel's duties are many and scattered. She and two other ministers serve five churches in the region. Her congregations in Plaue, southwest of Brandenburg city, and nearby Woltersdorf has shrunk to 600 from 800 in the last decade. This mirrored a pattern of decline in population and prosperity: Thousands of steel industry jobs were lost, Plaue closed its last school two years ago, and the town's once strong band of 30 fishing families has dwindled to four.

A recent study by Dresdner Bank predicted that in the coming years, 50% of Germany's churches may close or be turned into other uses. The nation's Roman Catholic Church is expected to stop services in 700 of its 24,500 churches by 2015. Some of them, such as St. Laurentius in Berlin, are being rented to immigrant religious denominations. The Lutheran Church has sold a number of its churches to such groups, including a Serbian Orthodox community.



Declining population

Congregations slip away with each church funeral. Germany, a nation of 82 million people, has a low fertility rate that is unable to balance its rapidly aging population; government estimates suggest the working-age population will shrink by 21 million over the next two decades.

Other pressures on churches include secularization, villages emptying as people move to find work and a state religion tax collected from all church members, which keeps thousands from joining.

Meeting this year in Wittenberg, the home of the Reformation, an organization of mainline Protestant churches predicted that by 2030 membership would drop to 17 million from 25.6 million, and that annual income from the church tax, which helps support institutions, would be halved from about $5.4 billion to $2.7 billion.

"I think it's time for more lay people to become involved and for church communities to learn they don't need a priest to come every weekend," said Beutel, whose Lutheran Church has cut its clergy in Germany by about one-third since 1990. "The church should live on in small families and groups. We know this is possible because of the Christian and Jewish diasporas over the centuries. People need to take more responsibility for their faith."
[b]Klaus Tanner, a professor of theology at Martin Luther University in Wittenberg, said many Christians were keeping their faith but were retracting from religious institutions[/b]. This dynamic is forcing Protestant churches to reorganize, trim budgets and contemplate diversifying programs with more missionary fervor.

"There's tremendous pressure on the church," he said. "There's more competition, of course, and some churches will survive and some will not."[/quote]

[quote]In overwhelmingly Roman Catholic Austria, people are automatically registered as church members when they are baptized as infants. To get their names off the rolls, they must formally apply to the government and pay any state church taxes they may owe.

Before the sex scandals hit, unhappiness with the church tax - which averages about $350 a year - was a key reason why people left.[/quote]

[url="http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=305&id=1122942004"]LINK[/url]



AUTOMATICALLY enrolled in the Catholic Church, with a LIFETIME tax of $350 a year, unless you FORMALLY resign.

and SADLY the PROT churches too there followed that plan.

So, in Austria, the Catholic Church as well as other Prot churches are by extension, a State Religions. I knew they did the same thing in Germany too.

Pretty convienient income stream for them...


That is one of the main things that has killed churches in Europe as well.

[Aloysius]

Never thought I'd see the day when the Uncompromising Budge, who refuses to support anything good done by the UN because of the principal that one should not yoke themselves with evil doers, would yoke herself to MODERNIST SENSIBILITIES. anyway, it's understandable: fundamentalism is a modernist individualist error.

what you fail to take into account is the long cultural history of Europe; Europe always understood herself as a society; and as a society she had a religion. There is no such thing as individual religion; at least there shouldn't be. It has been this way from the beginning, when the Apostles baptized hundreds at a time (they had not all gone through lengthy individual questioning processes, they all jumped on a bandwagon because of the fervor created by the Apostolic Missionaries), they baptized whole communities, and among those communities Christianity became expected of all its members.

And so we have the ghost of a Christian Civilization still expecting the members of its community to practice Christianity; to give money so that the Church can function and do good for the poor and provide all the religious services and missionary work and buildings which inspire prayer giving life to the Church.

But you have these American sensibilities; utterly foreign to the mindset of the Apostles, utterly foreign to the mindset of Christians for centuries. And while they fit in well with the sentiments these modernist-secularists (even if they claim to have belief in Christ, they are for all other purposes, especially regarding moral opinions, secularists) they do not fit in with the mindset of Christian civilization. The Catholic Church, and the fragments of the Protestant Churches, still operate as if Europe was Christian. Modernism has torn it apart, and made it not Christian; and so these new individualists; these new post-modern secular moralists, view the Church's connection with society as being oppressive to their license to do as they wish and not be expected to be Christians.

fine, go ahead, support the idea that people should not be expected to be Christians. You are yoking yourself with Satan's master plan to divide and conquer.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1257784' date='Apr 27 2007, 07:30 AM']But lets look at the facts, most European churches and I DID not leave out the bad Prot ones including the Lutheran churches in Germany, were married to the state.[/quote]

As I noted, NO churches in "Old Europe," i.e. northwestern Europe, are doing well, including the "good" - Evangelical / Pentecostal / Fundamentalist - Protestant churches. Of course, in countries in "New Europe," i.e. former Soviet bloc countries such as Poland, the Catholic Church rocks on.


[quote name='Budge' post='1257784' date='Apr 27 2007, 07:30 AM']Hitler did not protray himself as a "pagan" but as a Christian.[/quote]

This is simply untrue. Any true Christians who got in his was were destroyed. St. Maximillian Kolbe, anyone?

[Starets]

The center, source, foundation, and summit of the Catholic Church is Jesus Christ. Always has been. Always will be. Cities on hills aren't invisible

[Budge]

[quote]Never thought I'd see the day when the Uncompromising Budge, who refuses to support anything good done by the UN because of the principal that one should not yoke themselves with evil doers, would yoke herself to MODERNIST SENSIBILITIES. anyway, it's understandable: fundamentalism is a modernist individualist error.[/quote]Modernist?

I doubt it.

Modernism is what fuels the interfaith movement.

If you knew the history of the fundamentalist movement in America, you would know its main premise was coming out against modernism within the Prot church. Fundamentalists opposed to neo-evangelcials who downplayed the importance of scripture.


[quote]
what you fail to take into account is the long cultural history of Europe; Europe always understood herself as a society; and as a society she had a religion.[/quote]

Yes, there is another problem in a nutshell.

CHURCHES MARRIED TO THE WORLD {state} are DEAD AND LUKEWARM by default.

[b]Jhn 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:[/b]

No Holy Spirit in dead lukewarm churches.
[quote]

There is no such thing as individual religion; at least there shouldn't be.[/quote]Is the Pope going to be standing by you, when you are up in heaven? Your Mom, Dad, priest, cousin uncle going to get you in?
"Ye must be born again", doesnt mean you will be born again because the group was.


[quote]they do not fit in with the mindset of Christian civilization.[/quote]

Again what did Jesus preach about the world.
[b]
My kingdom is not of this world[/b]


Christian "faith" based in societal conformity where there is no inner change of heart, is no faith at all.

Christian civilization, not here on this earth if you read the bible..thats more Dominionist nonsense from the Catholic side of things.

"culture" is sinking sand as well.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1257836' date='Apr 27 2007, 09:27 AM']No Holy Spirit in dead lukewarm churches.
Is the Pope going to be standing by you, when you are up in heaven? Your Mom, Dad, priest, cousin uncle going to get you in?
"Ye must be born again", doesnt mean you will be born again because the group was.[/quote]

Church is a community, a family, here on Earth, and as it will be in Heaven. There is no such thing as a "Church of One," your good self notwithstanding. Church is also a "body." Kinda hard to be a body with only one member.

BTW, how do you explain the lack of traction of the "good" Protestant churches in Europe?

[Budge]

[quote]Church is a community, a family, here on Earth, and as it will be in Heaven. There is no such thing as a "Church of One," your good self notwithstanding. Church is also a "body." Kinda hard to be a body with only one member.[/quote]I am not in a church of one. In fact I may be attending a church of 900 soon.

I had a beloved church family of 100 members for several years in my former community, I am going to visit them soon as well.

Every truly born again Christian is a member of the church {assembly} that I am in, that is the true Body of Christ.

Not the Vatican, not your buildings, not lousy state Prot churches that have forsaken Gods Word.

[quote]

BTW, how do you explain the lack of traction of the "good" Protestant churches in Europe?[/quote]

Actually I believe there are some good ones, there have been missions there.

A lot of the lack of traction has been from the state churches themselves that have stood against anyone else possibly getting a cut of the action. Ie you think the monoliths would have been friendly to newcomers when they got a set 3% tax they are getting collected from the government?

My old church had missionaries that were setting to go to Europe including France.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1257852' date='Apr 27 2007, 09:52 AM']I am not in a church of one. In fact I may be attending a church of 900 soon.

I had a beloved church family of 100 members for several years in my former community, I am going to visit them soon as well.

Every truly born again Christian is a member of the church {assembly} that I am in, that is the true Body of Christ.[/quote]

But you've denounced others, including a pastor of an independent Baptist who preached "false doctrine" from the pulpit, as well, of course, as Catholics, based on YOUR interpretation of sacred scripture. My question, which you have yet to answer, is what makes YOUR interpretation better than David Koresh's? The logical end of your approach to faith, i.e. sola scriptura, must necessarily be a "Church of One."

[quote name='Budge' post='1257852' date='Apr 27 2007, 09:52 AM']Not the Vatican, not your buildings, not lousy state Prot churches that have forsaken Gods Word.[/quote]

The Catholic Church does not teach this, and you are either mistaken or deliberately misrepresenting that teaching. I'll be charitable and assume the former.

[quote name='Budge' post='1257852' date='Apr 27 2007, 09:52 AM']Actually I believe there are some good ones, there have been missions there.

A lot of the lack of traction has been from the state churches themselves that have stood against anyone else possibly getting a cut of the action. Ie you think the monoliths would have been friendly to newcomers when they got a set 3% tax they are getting collected from the government?

My old church had missionaries that were setting to go to Europe including France.[/quote]

What does the fact that there are some state-funded churches in Europe have to do with the fact that Evangelical / Pentecostal / Fundamentalist churches haven't experienced significant growth? Going back to my original response, they're dealing with the same problems as the "traditional" churches, to wit, secularism and materialism.

[Budge]

[quote]But you've denounced others, including a pastor of an independent Baptist who preached "false doctrine" from the pulpit, as well, of course, as Catholics, based on YOUR interpretation of sacred scripture. My question, which you have yet to answer, is what makes YOUR interpretation better than David Koresh's? The logical end of your approach to faith, i.e. sola scriptura, must necessarily be a "Church of One."[/quote]

So you dont think Christians should use any discernment.

That I should follow any preacher that calls himself a Christian, even some guy preaching direct heresies?

That I should follow even a Baptist preacher that prays to Buddha or something?

Christians use discernment they are not at the beck and call of false authorities.

Even the apostles taught "we should obey God rather then men"

David Koresh did not adhere to scripture but added to it, and made himself out to be a god....if his followers had any discernment they would have known he was a false preacher from the get-go.



T

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1257784' date='Apr 27 2007, 07:30 AM']Hitler did not protray himself as a "pagan" but as a Christian.[/quote]
Hitler was a politician and said all kinds of things to get popular support. In private, he has been recorded as speaking strongly against Christianity and the Church many times.

And Hitler was not a practicing Catholic/Christian. He fell away from the Faith in his youth, and was not a church-goer.
Blaming Nazism on Catholic sacramental life is absurd when neither Hitler himself nor the other chief Nazis were receiving the sacraments.

[Budge]

Sure there are many Luciferians who pretend to be Christians.

Be sure youre not being fooled by any now.

[Tufsoles]

Europeans have been leaveing the church for years and it comes down to humanist secularism, which is very appealing over there. I am not saying that all europeans are like that and I am not saying that all europeans are Humanist seculars who have left the church but this is one of the many causes that has caused this to occur. there are many other reason such as realism, satanism, and liberalism. There are more reasons but this just the tip of the iceberg.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1258473' date='Apr 27 2007, 09:01 PM']So you dont think Christians should use any discernment.

That I should follow any preacher that calls himself a Christian, even some guy preaching direct heresies?

That I should follow even a Baptist preacher that prays to Buddha or something?

Christians use discernment they are not at the beck and call of false authorities.

Even the apostles taught "we should obey God rather then men"

David Koresh did not adhere to scripture but added to it, and made himself out to be a god....if his followers had any discernment they would have known he was a false preacher from the get-go.
T[/quote]

I'm not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that we need an authoritative teaching institution as established by Jesus and guided by the Holy Spirit, and that can interpret and expound on scripture within its cultural, historial, literary, and linguistic context. "Discernment" has led only to heresies and schisms.

As for David Koresh, YOU say he did not adhere to scripture, but without an authoritative teaching institution to make that call, we literally have a "he said, she said" situation, in which what you say is, with respect, no better than your opinion.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1259284' date='Apr 28 2007, 09:09 PM']Sure there are many Luciferians who pretend to be Christians.

Be sure youre not being fooled by any now.[/quote]
You certainly say that you're Christian. Does that mean that you're probably really a "Luciferian"?

The implication of your argument is silly.