The Theory Of Being "born Again"

[Katholikos]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1252064' date='Apr 21 2007, 07:12 PM']Wrong!
As a student of the english language, I know this one thing, when you have an idea inside of a comma it is all tied together, so the statement and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissions of sins, God is communicating to us that baptism and remissions of sins are tied together.

Argue against God and the language he uses to convey ideas!

This goes well in hand for the Believer's baptism, because what baby has sinned?

You have to know you have sinned, and repent of your sins, which God forgives, and then get baptized for God to remit your sins! Babies can't do that![/quote]

You've never heard of Original Sin? Babies are born with it. Please provide the scripture citations for your statements. Thanks, Likos.

P.S. We're also waiting for the scripture cites from you and Budge for your idea of "born again."

[Maria]

[quote name='Budge' post='1251463' date='Apr 21 2007, 11:47 AM']Baptizing a baby does not mean it has a relationship with Christ. one is to become baptized after they have come to knowing faith in Christ. It is an ordinance that shows one's new faith to the community. I was baptized and ended up a pagan UU, that means there is no "power" in the water. I didnt know Jesus. I had no relationship with Him. That is what I am trying to show you.

I know endless atheists, agnostics, and people who havent set foot in a church in YEARS, who do not believe in Christianity [and OPENLY SAY SO] who were baptized as babies, they arent Christians, they arent born again. I certainly WAS NOT, until I came to faith in Jesus Christ.[/quote]
Who's instituting the relationship? Do we have to institute a relationship with Christ for it to be saving, or can others institute it on our behalf? Can parents dedicate their children to God and have that relationship be binding? For some reason I'm just thinking of the paralyzed man whose friends let him down through the roof, and of Samuel, who Hannah gave to God as a young child...
Why do infants need it? Human nature is corrupt. Look at a newspaper. Children aren't all innocents, and even if they aren't so much to blame for what they do, they can still be cruel, etc. (was there really no bullying at your school?). Besides, if I have children, I'd want my children to belong to God from the earliest moment possible. I'll initiate the relationship on the human side, but God will still be able to work through that.

[carrdero]

[quote]Revpordeji writes: so close, yet so far away.

Do you feed a baby, even if it cant ask for food? [/quote]Studies have proven that infants require nourishment if it is expected to live. Without food a baby will die. These same studies have also shown that babies can survive without an appliction of baptism water.
[quote]Revpordeji writes: Do you hold a baby, even if they can not tell you what love is?[/quote]
Not every parent is interactive with their child. I have also known 52 year old children who haven’t pinned down the concept of love yet either.

Now it is time to ask you some questions.

If you had a child would you feed it the same baby food you ate when you were young?

Would you be upset with this child if they did not learn to use the potty at the same age you did?

Would you force this child to pursue the same sports, the same activities, the same classes and encourage the same talents that manifested in your early years?

Would you assume that since you are right handed that your child who has favored their left hand should relearn to utilize their right hand?

Would it be safe to assume that your child is going to grow up with the same beliefs as you and to exalt the same effort you use to profess and promote your faith?
[quote]This is what baptism is
You are making great progression in understanding the baptism "does" something, but you need to study just "what" it does,[/quote]
Consider baptisms the first act a parent commits to in the formation of how they expect their children to act and live. You can almost anticipate the uphill conflict they will have with their child throughout the ages. I AM not casting judgment on ALL parents or religions because I observe that children will eventually adopt, change, or drop their inherited faith as they grow older. They usually implement this by themselves. Think about what baptisms are for a moment, though. It's like parents are saying, "Welcome to the family! Now I expect you to grow up in [b][i]exactly this manner[/i]."[/b]

Edited April 22, 2007 by carrdero

[Budge]

Unless a child really truly makes Christian faith their own, it does not count.

This can happen in any church,.

Many children follow their parents desires, but do not make the faith their own truly. In fact there is the danger of a child rejecting a parents faith even as they search for their own identity apart from their parents especially in today's modern culture.

Considering that family networks were stronger in past times, and now especially in America families live far flung, depending on family to make someone a Christian, isnt going to work. Kids grow up go away to college and are faced with other voices. Supposely being a Christian because Mom and Dad were, isnt going to cut it, they need to have their OWN FAITH.

You try and raise a child the best you can, give them biblical foundation but they must make that step themselves towards faith in Christ.

[Budge]

[quote]Who's instituting the relationship? Do we have to institute a relationship with Christ for it to be saving, or can others institute it on our behalf?[/quote]

Others cannot institute it.

parents can teach and train children and give them a biblical foundation, but they can not provide the faith itself for the child. The child must have their OWN FAITH in Jesus Christ.

There are many many atheists, agnostics, believers in false religions who WERE baptized as babies, but basically they just got water sprinkled on them because they never had their own faith in Jesus Christ.

Edited April 22, 2007 by Budge

[kujo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1252848' date='Apr 22 2007, 09:46 AM']Others cannot institute it.

parents can teach and train children and give them a biblical foundation, but they can not provide the faith itself for the child. The child must have their OWN FAITH in Jesus Christ.[/quote]

Again, I ask you these questions:

1. Do you believe in the existence of original sin?
2. What happens to someone who dies before having the opportunity to initiate their own relationship with Jesus Christ?

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Budge' post='1252846' date='Apr 22 2007, 09:43 AM']Unless a child really truly makes Christian faith their own, it does not count.

This can happen in any church,.

Many children follow their parents desires, but do not make the faith their own truly. In fact there is the danger of a child rejecting a parents faith even as they search for their own identity apart from their parents especially in today's modern culture.

Considering that family networks were stronger in past times, and now especially in America families live far flung, depending on family to make someone a Christian, isnt going to work. Kids grow up go away to college and are faced with other voices. Supposely being a Christian because Mom and Dad were, isnt going to cut it, they need to have their OWN FAITH.

You try and raise a child the best you can, give them biblical foundation but they must make that step themselves towards faith in Christ.[/quote]
I consider the age of accountablity to be about 6 years old. A 6 year old knows what is good and what is wrong. So they can make the decision to be baptized at about that age.

If they don't get baptized then, well. . .

Now I wouldn't be the parent who would demand anything from my child, as it concerns a relationship with Jesus. It should be up to the child, as they hear scripture.

If they decide to leave the faith after, then they're on their own as well.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1253392' date='Apr 22 2007, 05:15 PM']I consider the age of accountablity to be about 6 years old. A 6 year old knows what is good and what is wrong. So they can make the decision to be baptized at about that age.

If they don't get baptized then, well. . .

Now I wouldn't be the parent who would demand anything from my child, as it concerns a relationship with Jesus. It should be up to the child, as they hear scripture.

If they decide to leave the faith after, then they're on their own as well.[/quote]

I kinda like the idea of raising them in the faith, baptising them, and raising them to be Christians... not raising them to one day be Christians.

[FullTruth]

^ That is exactly what I am talking about.

You raise a child in the way they should go, and they shall not depart from it.

But it is repentance first, and Baptism for the remissions of sins second, and they will be filled with the holy ghost.

[Anthony]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1253392' date='Apr 22 2007, 07:15 PM']I consider the age of accountablity to be about 6 years old. A 6 year old knows what is good and what is wrong. So they can make the decision to be baptized at about that age.

If they don't get baptized then, well. . .

Now I wouldn't be the parent who would demand anything from my child, as it concerns a relationship with Jesus. It should be up to the child, as they hear scripture.

If they decide to leave the faith after, then they're on their own as well.[/quote]

That is bad parenting right there. The parent has the responsibility to instill a life of faith in their child. THe decision should not be left up to the child. You wouldn't let your child chose to eat vegetables because you know its good for them. The same principle applies to religion. Having a relationship with Christ is important. Why would you deny your child a relationship with God because you think he needs to reach the age of reason first? Makes no sense to me at all.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1252064' date='Apr 21 2007, 07:12 PM']Wrong!
As a student of the english language, I know this one thing, when you have an idea inside of a comma it is all tied together, so the statement and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissions of sins, God is communicating to us that baptism and remissions of sins are tied together.

Argue against God and the language he uses to convey ideas![/quote]

Uh, um, the NT was written in Greek, not English. English didn't even exist as a language when the Bible (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek) was written. Only the original autographs (which don't exist) are the infallible, inerrant Word of God. God doesn't protect copyists, printers, or translators from error. There are lots of very humorous Bibles that are now priceless and kept in museums because of the English errors. I have no idea how Greek is punctuated. Have you?

[Katholikos]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1253392' date='Apr 22 2007, 07:15 PM']I consider the age of accountablity to be about 6 years old. A 6 year old knows what is good and what is wrong. So they can make the decision to be baptized at about that age.[/quote]

Where is this found in the Bible? Thanks.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Anthony' post='1253481' date='Apr 22 2007, 09:04 PM']That is bad parenting right there. The parent has the responsibility to instill a life of faith in their child. THe decision should not be left up to the child. You wouldn't let your child chose to eat vegetables because you know its good for them. The same principle applies to religion. Having a relationship with Christ is important. Why would you deny your child a relationship with God because you think he needs to reach the age of reason first? Makes no sense to me at all.[/quote]
You like twisting my words, don't you?

I would be going over the Bible every single day with my child, from the moment they are born.

Everynight, I would read a bible story to them.

But the choice would be up to the child.

But if you teach a child in the way they should go, they will not depart from it.

A child can have a relationship with god whenever they choose, from the day you teach them to pray.

Baptism is different, as is repentance. They can know how to pray by age 1-3, but they need to know they have done bad things before the lord so they can say sorry to God for doing that, and then be Baptized.

And you do not need to tell me the responsibility a parent has to teach a child how to honour God. All you need to do is read Deutronomy 6, and you can see how important God thinks it is. A parent needs to be with the children from the moment they wake up to the moment they lay their heads down, telling them the testimonies of God and reading the Bible. And I have a few my children will get to hear, and they will be amazed by who God is!

Like how Daddy followed Leviticus 15, and the day he decided to do that, God took the sin that Daddy was almost daily involved in and he has been clean of that issue from that day on! :

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1253506' date='Apr 22 2007, 09:21 PM']Where is this found in the Bible? Thanks.[/quote]
Where is enfant baptism in the Bible?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1253629' date='Apr 22 2007, 07:15 PM']Where is enfant baptism in the Bible?[/quote]

It's a historical fact [and I think a biblical one too] that the Apostles baptised whole familys. I just found these scriptures that conclude whole familys were baptized [Acts 16:15, 16:33, 1 Cor. 1:16 and there's many more].

Reza