Catholic Thought Process

[phatcatholic]

how about you not tell us about you insulting the church and leading people away from it ever again

.............thanks,

phatcatholic

[God Conquers]

Jesus comes to the Pope every day, physically.

I think Bruce, that you have come here for a reason, and that you are able to break through works of scripture for other protestants based on Catholic beliefs for a reason. Jesus wants you back bro.

[ironmonk]

bruce,

You fail to realize that you can't prove anything you've claimed about the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church was the Church that Christ built. The Catholic Church is not a denomination. All non-Catholic churches that claim to be Christian are denominated from Catholicism.

You have contradicted yourself again. This is clearly seen when viewing some of you other posts. The baptist church started in 1605 in Amsterdam... the same Amsterdam that has major red light districts and legal drugs.

The 57 yr old you speak of left for one of three reasons:

1.) She didn't know the Catholic Faith

2.) She couldn't give up a sin

3.) She lost faith in God altogether - or rejected God

Those are the only reasons why anyone would leave the Catholic Church.

I find it amusing that the whole world of history shows that the Catholic Church was Christianity until 1517, and you feel you know more than Encyclopedia Britannica, Compton's Encyclopedia, Columbia Encyclopedia, Luther, Calvin, Knox, etc...

No matter what you say or want to believe, it will not change the FACT that the Catholic Church was first.

Roman Catholicism

Encyclopædia Britannica Article

Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?query=&ct=&eu=117868

Columbia Encyclopedia:

Divisions within the Religion

In the two millennia of its history Christianity has been divided by schism and roiled by heresy, based on doctrinal and organizational differences. Today there are three broad divisions, Roman Catholic, Orthodox Eastern, and Protestant; but within the category of Protestantism, there is a particularly large number of divergent denominations. Because of the complexity of these differences this article will describe the history of Christianity only to 1054, when the schism between Eastern and Western churches became final. Separate articles detail the history and doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church and Orthodox Eastern Church and of the other churches of ancient origin, the Armenian Church, the Coptic Church (see Copts), the Jacobite Church, and the Nestorian Church. In the 16th cent. another major schism took place in the Western Church with the Protestant Reformation. For the Protestant churches, see Protestantism and articles on the separate churches. For the 20th-century movement that seeks to end the divisiveness in Christianity and achieve reunion, see ecumenical movement.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/ch/Christia.html

catholic church [Gr.,=universal], the body of Christians, living and dead, considered as an organization. The word catholic was first used c.110 to describe the Church by St. Ignatius of Antioch. In speaking of the time before the Reformation in Western Europe, Catholic is technically used to mean orthodox (i.e., those who accept the tradition as mediated by the Roman Church). Today in English it usually means the Roman Catholic Church.

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0810874.html

What is Catholicism?

Catholicism is the oldest Christian religion in the world. With over one billion people, the Catholic religion remains a strong force despite opposition. Catholicism is over 2,000 years old. Through the years, the religion must be more than a human organization, but a holy one.

Catholicism is the only Christian religion that started during Christ's time.

All other Christian religions stemmed from it. The name "the catholic church" first started in the year 107 when Ignatius of Antioch used the title to describe Jesus' church. The term was old even then so it was probably known in the apostle's time. Catholicism has four main qualities. They are one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

One - Jesus designed only one church with one set of doctrines. These doctrines are often examined, but their true meaning always stays in tact. Jesus has one body so He only has one Church.

Holy - Jesus has made the church holy. No, not all the members act holy, but the church itself remains holy.

Catholic - The word Catholic means universal. Jesus told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of everyone. The Catholic religion is found all over the world.

Apostolic - Catholicism is apostolic because Jesus appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church. Successors were the future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops. Since the first century, there has been an unbroken chain of bishops that pass down the traditions and Scriptures.

http://catholicism.about.com/cs/theology/a/catholicism03.htm

It's time you start researching your resources... and stop contradicting yourself.

Is your love for Christ, or being right?

If someone could prove the Catholic Church wrong, then I would happily join the Church that they showed me to be True, because if the Catholic Church was wrong, and someone showed me the True Church, then I would be that much closer to Christ.... I'm just as happy with the Catholic Church being wrong as being right.... So far, no one, out of hundreds of people, has been able to prove the Catholic Church wrong... in fact, 99% of them attack the Church based on lies about the Church... this even shows that the Catholic Church is right.

You hit a wall because you put the wall there. Tear down the wall, and open up to the FULL Truth.

I've study from a scientific point of view... I don't get mad when proven wrong, I change my view... I change for Christ... that is why I am Catholic, because Christ wants me to be... Christ wants everyone to be in His Church... but we have free will... so some reject the ones He sent.

The Catholic Church is the only church that can stand up to all attacks on doctrines and win... ALL others fall under real scrutiny.

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

Edited January 28, 2004 by ironmonk

[IcePrincessKRS]

Oh most beauteous editing, Mr. Mediator of Meh. ;)

[Dave]

And you would be wrong on that.

Jesus came and died  for ALL....

Not for a denomination.

Bruce, how many times do we have to tell you that Catholicism is NOT a denomination but rather the one true Church Jesus established? Your church does NOT fit that description; it's man-made!

As for Catholics being blinded by pride and never conceding a single point, look who's talking, sir!!!!! We have shown you clearly why you're wrong, and yet you refuse to admit that you're mistaken.

And you're comment about Jesus blowing up the Vatican has crossed the line. If you claim to be a Christian, you sure don't act like one! I see no love in any of your posts, just hate and self-righteous judgment. May God have mercy on you, for I get the feeling you're traveling along a very dangerous road!

The biggest cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and then deny Him by their lifestyle. What if someone whose faith is weak came to this board and saw you being all hateful and stuff while calling yourself a Christian? I shudder to think about it! You need to check yo'self before you wreck yo'self!

Edited January 28, 2004 by Dave

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Well Bruce has a point..Christ doesnt know anything about a Denomination. Its foreign to Christ. Because Christ didnt create a Denomination, He only wanted ONE Church, believing and teaching in the SAME Thing, Praying the SAME way. When others come into the mix its foreign to Christ and it disappoints him. Seems man knows more than God does when it comes to creating a church.

But congrats Bruce for chasing yet another person away from Christ. Im sure satan's well pleased..May God have Mercy on your poor soul.

[Paladin D]

Her family is Catholic, she was too, and has become a Born Again Baptist. She couldn't understand why so many things she once embraced [she is 57] now seem so foreign to her, and why she now can't even communicate with her Catholic family on these issues.

I walked her through the AUTHORITY thing, the difference in the Catholic mindset as to where to turn for the answer, versus the way a Protestant will think.

It was as if a giant lightbulb went off in her head. Even though, she, like others, had BEEN a Catholic most of her life, she never understood this because she relied on local authority for direction, and never got into the historical and thinking behind why a Catholic will ultimately think on a different path than a Protestant.

Reverse that, and you got my conversion from Protestantism to Catholicism. My former Pentecostal/AOG beliefs seem more foriegn and false now.

[ironmonk]

For Bruce... please click this.

[jmjtina]

I was at a catholic teen site and a non-catholic girl wrote in about her friend.

She needed help persuading him to stay in his Catholic faith, because he was doubting so much. Since she wasn't Catholic, she couldn't answer his questions yet could (and I quote) "see he couldn't find peace unless he returned to his Catholic faith". She needed our help.

This was a true friend. Helping them find peace and knowing that he left for the wrong reasons.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Instantly, the passages in Romans made sense to everyone, the blindness of the Jew brought on by his trying to find favor with God by HIS action, not by mere Grace. Thanks for that insight, it has helped me immensely with Romans, and Galations.

Bruce,

What is your personal or denominational theological position on soteriological issues? And in my opinion you are hardly a good spokeman for Catholicism since judging from your posts on this site you either do not know, or understand the Church's teachings. I also doubt that you actually understand what Paul is saying in Romans and Galatians. Remember how Peter talks about the difficulty of interpreting Paul, many twist what he was saying.

Despite the popular protestant misconception, the Judaizers of Paul's day were not preaching salvation by works as they [prots] understand it, nor was Paul condemning works as having no part in the Christian life (this would contradict Jesus Christ, Peter, James, and even Paul himself). What Paul is saying is that works of the law (ie. circumcision) are not what justifies man. The works and precepts of the Mosaic law are not the precondition of the life of Grace (life in the Spirit) offered through the blood of Jesus Christ in the New Covenant. The precondition which brings about justification (in the sense of entry into that covenant whereby we experience the forgiveness of sin and live by the Spirit, not the Law) is a true, living Faith in Jesus Christ.

I can support this interpretation with protestant biblical scholarship as well.

Perhaps this quote would be helpful:

"Contrary to the pronouncements of popular preachers, first century Judaism did not believe in salvation by works. They believed that they were God's elect people by grace; lawkeeping was their response to God's grace. Salvation was understood to be granted by God's electing grace, not according to righteousness based on merit-earning works. But most protestant scholars since Luther have read Paul as saying that Judaism misunderstood the gracious nature of God's covenant with Moses and perverted it into a system of attaining righteousness by works. Wrong! Luther's experience was not Paul's. New Testament scholars [protestant], for the most part, now understand 'works of the law' not as synonymous with human effort but as the activities by which the Jews maintained their distinct status from the Gentiles... For Paul, these boundary-defining features distinguished Israel in the flesh (Romans 2:28) and encouraged Jews to boast in their national identity (Rom 3:27-29; Gal 2:16; 6:13). They were obstructing the extension of God's grace to the nations through Christ. In so doing, they were undermining their very purpose of existence: all the nations were supposed to be blessed by the offspring of Abraham (Gen 12:3; Deut 4:6; Isa 66:20). So when Paul says of the Jews that 'they sought to establish their own righteousness' (Rom 10:3), he doesn't mean that they were trying to earn their salvation through human exertion but that they arrogated to themselves the authority to set the conditions by which believing Gentiles could be regarded as full members in the new covenant community. They rejected the authoritative apostolic teaching that the Jews and Gentiles constituted one body (Acts 15:1,24; Gal 1:7; 2:12; 5:10; Eph 2-3:13) and they sought to thwart God's inclusion of the Gentiles by insisting that Gentiles first become Jews through circumcision, etc [the works of the law], rather than through faith in Jesus, who is the 'end' or 'aim' of the law (Phil 3:2; Gal 5:6; 6:15; 1 Cor 7:19; Rom 10:4). They were retrogressive..."

As I've said before, the protestant traditions tend to absolutize a handful of misinterpreted verses and use these, even against the words of Christ, to form a theology (which was already preconcieved) that is not harmonious with Scripture as a whole. I would assert (and I can back it up) that the Catholic teachings on grace, justification, sanctification, etc. are the most consistent with Scripture and alone harmonize all of Scripture.

And please Bruce, tell me in a somewhat systematic way, what you think the Church teaches about faith, works, salvation, justification, sanctification, etc..

Also if you reveal precisely what you hold (it would be enough to say 'calvinism' or 'arminianism') then we could have a more in depth dialogue.

Peace

Edited January 29, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[Winchester]

So the fact that Peter's issues were sttled by local authority mean...?

Please Bruce, explain it to me. Explain why a relatively small number of Christian authorities discussed this matter and Peter then declared the decision. Plretty please, since the "history" you want people to get past is also what makes the Bible what it is today...

[PatrickRitaMichael]

And you would be wrong on that.

Jesus came and died for ALL....

Not for a denomination.

So if Jesus died for All, then all go to heaven right? One could say, Christ didn't die for one RELIGION, He died for EVERYONE. I'm sure that a Muslim would think that you're being very exclusive and narrow-minded by saying that only Christians can go to heaven. It's all in perspective. Everything is intolerance unless it's about the TRUTH. And the truth is, Christ established one Church and that Church is still around by God's grace and it's called the Catholic Church.

Ironmonk said: Is your love for Christ, or being right?

I am wondering this myself.

Just want to put a plug in here for Ironmonk. Thanks for all your great posting! I always learn something new and I am always amazed that you can be so unbending about the faith without arrogance -- only love for God. It's a rare but beautiful combination and something I'm trying to learn to do myself.

[Laudate_Dominum]

And you would be wrong on that.

Jesus came and died for ALL....

Not for a denomination.

Bruce,

Jesus didn't found denominations, men did. Jesus founded the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Any validly Baptized Christian is Baptized into this Church, it IS the Body of Christ. Every person in Heaven is a Catholic regardless of their religion here on earth. There is no salvation outside the Church. The various fractures of Christianity (denominations) are wounds on His Mystical Body. And while these various groups have the truths of the Gospel in different degrees, the Catholic Church has the fullness of the Faith. The divisions are caused by the sinfullness and infidelity of man. While you are a protestant now, you will be a Catholic in Heaven. You will honor and love Christ's Mother as your own Mother, you will realize what you were missing in the Holy Eucharist, etc.

I pray that the Mediatrix of All Grace will guide you swiftly back to the Eucharistic Heart of Jesus made truly present in the tabernacles of the world. Ad Jesum Per Mariam!