Hell

[thessalonian]

Yes, I was speaking with regard to Catholics. Non-Catholic Christians are apostates for denying other essential doctrines that are in the Catholic fold as well, such as God. No offense but I think your probably coved. You can't back out on truth. Therea are consequences if you do.

Edited April 16, 2007 by thessalonian

[Aloysius]

without Mary, there would be no salvation. she is the necessary component to the work of salvation. now, one could create all sorts of wild speculations that if it weren't Mary, God would have set up another means of salvation. but that's irrelevant because He didn't, He did it all through Mary.

as the reality stands now, Mary is an absolutely necessary part of our incarnational understanding of Christ. She magnifies Christ; and looking at her and and of herself still helps us know more about Christ.

can one be saved without ever praying to Mary? yeah, but it's far less likely. Mary helps us avoid hell, simple as that. Mary obtains grace for us; because Mary is full of Grace, Mary is filled with Christ.

without being united to the body of Christ, which includes all Christians living and dead, salvation is impossible. the whole mystical body of Christ is necessary for salvation; and that includes Mary.

One cannot have God as Father who does not have Church as mother, who does not have Mary as mother. Any beloved disciple of Christ is a beloved son of Mary. These things are inseperable; you cannot take away Mary from the equation. There is no possible way that any Christian would not have Mary to pray to; they would no longer be Christian if they were not a son of Mary. And since salvation only comes from being Christian, Mary saves us in this way.

Mary's heart was peirced with a sword so that the hearts of many might be revealed to God, Mary magnifies God and Christ.

could I see an ant without a magnifying glass? yeah, but I couldn't really get the whole thing.

could I be saved by Christ without Mary? yeah, perhaps, but I wouldn't have any understanding of Christ without an understanding of Mary. I wouldn't be fully saved unless I had sonship to Mary.

Could someone in the Davidic kingdom be helped without the intercession of the Queen Mother? sure, I suppose in theory; but that's not the way things were set up. The Queen Mother brought the people's concerns to the priest more often than not.

[Justin (Wiccan)]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1246042' date='Apr 16 2007, 06:15 PM']No offense but I think your probably coved.[/quote]

Absolutely no offense taken.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1246042' date='Apr 16 2007, 04:15 PM']Yes, I was speaking with regard to Catholics. [b]Non-Catholic Christians are apostates for denying other essential doctrines that are in the Catholic fold as well, such as God.[/b] No offense but I think your probably coved. You can't back out on truth. Therea are consequences if you do.[/quote]
*confused*

[N/A Gone]

Could you believe in the marian theology (hehe, acting like 90% of believers of any community understand theology) without ever participating in marian practices? For myself I have read numerous books on the marian dogmas, (including the 5th issue) yet the only marian thing I do is pray the rosary. Would you argue that I am not satisfying the soteriological needs of my faith?

Seperated breathen, (im speaking evan proto) have so much polemic information built into their very DNA when it comes to mary that the possibilitiy of a protestant working towards a marian theology is more impossible to imagine than an acceptance of moral theology or eucharistic need. It is my view that the heart is judged here, unknown to man, when it comes to the salavic situation of protestants in this regard. there are some that are saved because their soul thirsts for truth, and they desire the love that is direct to an experience of God. But there are some who are bitter and caught up on their own ways that they wont Budge from the self focus and submit to the ways of the divine.

/rant

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]For myself I have read numerous books on the marian dogmas, (including the 5th issue) yet the only marian thing I do is pray the rosary. Would you argue that I am not satisfying the soteriological needs of my faith?[/quote]

St Terese of Avila knew an elderly woman whose only prayer was the Our Father. Whenever she prayed she would simply recite Pater Nosters, often spending an hour or more over the first two words alone. She was a very holy person, and St Teresa was touched by her love for God. She wrote that this woman's practice of prayer shouldn't be criticised for being so stark and simple. It is no doubt possible to understand Mary's role in the Church through the Our Father - in fact, it is probably possible to understand everything through the Our Father. Some things we don't learn overtly.

I also think it's impossible to say that the 'only' Marian thing you do is pray the rosary. When you pray the rosary you have your entire life in your hands. It is a big prayer.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1245904' date='Apr 16 2007, 03:56 PM']no she's right

the article on subjunctive mood in wikipedia explains it. I never knew about it until I took Spanish, which helped me learn English grammar better.[/quote]

[jeffpugh]

The first thing I thought about this question (after reading) was there would be no salvation. Basically, I clicked null vote because I wanted to read further for more specifics on the topic. Personally, I know Mary helps a lot and I know her role as Queen as reflected in the OT. I wish protestants would get this. In fact, I am trying to get a prod friend to Join Phatmass... he doesn't understand the reasoning for joining a 'Catholic' forum. He would prolly enjoy this thread. Or maybe not.

[Socrates]

Stupid question.

If there was no Mary, there'd be no Jesus to save us.

We are not saved by "praying to Mary" (despite what Budge may tell you Catholics believe) but through Christ, who came through Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Socrates

[dairygirl4u2c]

well it's about praying to mary and not whether we needed her as we obviously did, and there's two people who clicked yes.
and many more who don't click yes have said that mary saves people by her intercession and so wouldn't find someone clicking yes to be wrong.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1246536' date='Apr 16 2007, 10:32 PM']Stupid question.

If there was no Mary, there'd be no Jesus to save us.

We are not saved by "praying to Mary" (despite what Budge may tell you Catholics believe) but through Christ, who came through Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant.[/quote]As you have demonstrated, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers.

So are you saying that God's will could have been thwarted by human whim? All mankind's salvation for all eternity depended upon Mary's acceptance? I do believe the nuance is that Mary's acceptance of God's grace was the pivotal moment of Man's Salvation, but it must be acknowledged that God's will would eventually be fulfilled.

[Aloysius]

speculations like that are superfluous and only serve to trivialize Mary's decision when, in fact, it was her decision that brought salvation.

God did, in fact, wager all of mankind's salvation on Mary's choice; in the same way He wagered all mankind's destiny on the choice of Eve and then Adam, he wagered everything on the human choices of Mary and Jesus. there is no "if Mary said no", but if there was, sure okay God's Will is done in some way... but the fact of the matter is God put everything into whether Mary would say yes. If she had not said yes, there was no backup plan. He knew she would say yes (though He did not make her say yes) and never thought up any backup plans or anything.

~"the only marian prayer I pray is the rosary"... uh... that's just EVERYTHING. haha... but the other answers were good too, I just want to point out that that's anyone who prays the rosary is not lacking anything in the marian devotion department as far as I'm concerned (they could go further, if they wished)

Catholics cannot understand your question, dairy. Because the fact is that Mary is in heaven and she does help to save us by her prayers and her magnifying of God and of Christ. Yes, we Catholics love to speculate alternative timelines and possibilities, just as much as the next guy, probably moreso, but when it comes to this specific speculative question, there just is no answer. If Mary existed and bore the saviour, then she is in heaven. If she is in heaven, she is magnifying God's Grace and helping to save us. The speculation "if you didn't have Mary to pray to" basically says to our mindset "if Mary wasn't in heaven, wasn't magnifying God"... which necessarily means to us that Mary had either never existed or never bore the Saviour. There is no situation in our mindset where there would be a Christ to pray to but not a Mary, they're inseperable.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1246599' date='Apr 16 2007, 11:18 PM']God did, in fact, wager all of mankind's salvation on Mary's choice; in the same way He wagered all mankind's destiny on the choice of Eve and then Adam, he wagered everything on the human choices of Mary and Jesus. there is no "if Mary said no", but if there was, sure okay God's Will is done in some way... but the fact of the matter is God put everything into whether Mary would say yes. If she had not said yes, there was no backup plan. He knew she would say yes (though He did not make her say yes) and never thought up any backup plans or anything.[/quote]Wager? That certainly seems to be a poor choice of words. It infers gambling on something you don't know the outcome.
I don't believe in predestination, but I don't believe it was a wager to God, that if Mary said no, all mankind was doomed. God had already promised salvation, it wasn't a conditional promise, waged and dependent on the whims of a single human. I think it is more telling and illuminative that God entrusted humanity to fulfill His will and confirms the basic Goodness He created humanity with.

[Aloysius]

I'm not trying to be precise with "wager" just poetic.

As regards predestination; there is some type of predestination according to the scriptures, there is just a question of how it is done. Mary's choice was Mary's choice, she had the ability to choose one or the other; but she chose to accept Christ and God always knew that she would choose that way. God knew what the outcome would be of Mary's choice and God knew what the outcome would be of Eve's choice.

This line of speculation is ridiculously irrelevant. If Mary said no, there could have been many more millenia without Christ, or God could have arranged for the immaculate conception of some other Jewish girl, or God could have just ended the world right then and there and been done with the whole endeavor. These are ridiculous speculations: as it stands, God did put all of humanity's fate in Mary's capable hands knowing full well that it was the way to bring about His greater glory.

it's like the choice Eve made. God staked the entire salvation of humanity on Eve's choice. okay, so He went to a backup plan. I'm not saying He wouldn't have gone to another backup plan if Mary had said no, I'm just saying as it stands, there is no such backup plan and there is no purpose served by such speculation.