Example Of Taking Mary

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]"Most holy, immaculate Virgin and my Mother Mary! To you who are the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the world, the Advocate, the Hope, and the Refuge of sinners, I have recourse today, I who am the most miserable of all. I render you my most humble homage, O great Queen, and I thank you for all the graces you have conferred on me until now, especially for having delivered me from hell, which I have so often deserved. I love you, O most amiable Lady; and for the love which I bear you, I promise to serve you always and to do all in my power to make others love you also. I place in you all my hopes; I confide my salvation to your care. Accept me for your servant and receive me under your mantle, O Mother of Mercy. And since you are so powerful with God, deliver me from all temptations; or rather, obtain to me the strength to triumph over them until death. Of you I ask a perfect love for Jesus Christ. Through you I hope to die a good death. O my Mother, by the love which you bear to God, I beseech you to help me at all times, but especially at the last moment of my life. Leave me not, I beseech you, until you see me safe in heaven, blessing you and singing your mercies for all eternity. Amen. So I hope. So may it be."[/quote]

[Groo the Wanderer]

She was good enough for God, therefore she is good enough for you and me.

You just simply have to understand the context of each phrase. It might be more fruitful to pick out a single phrase/sentence that give you problems and let the phamily explain the meaning behind it.

[Mateo el Feo]

The author is St. Alphonsus Liguori. Quoting from the prayer:

"Of you I ask a perfect love for Jesus Christ."

True Marian devotion always points to Our Lord.

As for whether Liguori was too focused on Mary in general, I think it is worth noting that the order he founded was "Congregation of the Most Holy Redeemer" (not a terribly Marian name for a religious order).

Finally, while the text might not make sense to most modern Christian eyes, there is a strong Biblical precedent for appealing to the mother of a king. It happens quite a bit in the Old Testament. In this light, a similar appeal is being made to the Queen Mother, Mary, to intercede with the "King of kings."

Edited April 16, 2007 by Mateo el Feo

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]She was good enough for God, therefore she is good enough for you and me.[/quote]

[i]So I hope. So may it be.[/i]

[thessalonian]

Nope. Her Son, Jesus Christ earned the grace. She is the dispenser and our mother. She interceeds for us if we ask and she will ask right up to the end. She is our most sure way to heaven because as the mother of God she has a special place of honor and he will hear her and we will recieve the graces neccessary for salvatoin. In the Catholic context the prayer recognizes that Mary can do nothing for us except pray/interceed. The grace is what Christ earned on the cross and we can recieve it by her prayers. She only brings what we ask about through Christ.

In the context in which you and other protestants think the prayer is out of line and even blasphemous. But what you folks think isn't of much consequence. The Jews prayed through the Ark of the Covenant, a holy and pure vessel to God. (see Josh 7). They even bow down before it. Protestants would have condemned them as idolaters by looking at them that day. But God, who knew their hearts granted them victory the next day. Catholics pray through Mary, the ark of the new covenant, a holy and pure vessel in which the Christ Child resided for 9 months physically and her whole life and through the rest of eternity spirtuall, the God bearer, to Christ. God knows our hearts and the context in which we pray. What goes on in the neurons of protestant minds is of little consequence.

Blessings

Edited April 16, 2007 by thessalonian

[Justin (Wiccan)]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1245699' date='Apr 16 2007, 01:14 PM']What goes on in the neurons of protestant minds is of little consequence.[/quote]

Remember charity, my friend--and I must admit that in reminding you, I also admonish myself.

[Era Might]

The thing about poetic prayers to Our Lady is that they are written in a context where we understand what we are saying. It's like if a married couple has pet names for each other that they use in private but not in public, because it would sound weird. When a mother stretches her arms out and says to her child, "I love you this much," the stretching of the arms is not a literal measurement, and prayers should not necessarily be taken as literal, precise theology, because they are more related to poetry. For most of Christian history, both East and West understood why we used strong language and imagery to express our love for the Mother of God. After Protestant theology gradually separated Our Lady from Christian piety, it may seem strange for Protestants, but it is what it is. These prayers are words of tenderness to our mother, and we understand that everything is seen in relation to God. Also, another thing is that when we venerate the Saints, we are in a sense entering into the honor God himself has given them, by crowning them with eternal life. He says that in Heaven we reign with him, which means that the Saints are royalty. If we know nothing of Heaven, then we will find it hard to understand why the Saints are honored as they are. We see around us a world struggling with sin and imperfection, but the Saints are perfect, and have received the crown of life. It is through our icons and statues and prayers that we make Heaven present on earth.

[Anomaly]

I voted yes. I was raised as a Catholic, spent 12 years in Catholic education, and taught it for a few years, so I don't consider myself some reactionary protestant.

[quote]Most holy, immaculate Virgin and my Mother Mary! To you who are the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the world, the Advocate, the Hope, and the Refuge of sinners, I have recourse today, I who am the most miserable of all. [/quote]Don't have a problems with this at all.

[quote]I render you my most humble homage, O great Queen, and I thank you for all the graces you have conferred on me until now, especially for having delivered me from hell, which I have so often deserved.[/quote]
BIG problem. 1- I have a problem saying she conferred Graces on me. Obtained graces from her son, asking on my behalf, is okay.
2- Saying she delivered me from hell.
[quote]I love you, O most amiable Lady; and for the love which I bear you,[/quote]No problem.
[quote]I promise to serve you always and to do all in my power to make others love you also. I place in you all my hopes; I confide my salvation to your care.[/quote]Huge problem. Yes, you can seek to serve Mary, keeping in mind she is serving God, but the way it is written, it seem ambiguous. I'm feeling uncomfortable. Reading on, "I place in you all my hopes;" changes the uncomfortable feeling to extreme negativity. You can have some hope that Mary may intercede on your behalf to obtain graces, but it goes to far to say you place ALL your hope in her. Finally, putting icing on the cake, confiding your soul's salvation to her care seems a bit extreme as well. Especially reading it after the Divne Mercy Sunday. Which sounds better, theologically? Jesus, I trust in You? or Mary, I trust in you alone?
[quote]Accept me for your servant and receive me under your mantle, O Mother of Mercy.[/quote]Okay.
[quote]And since you are so powerful with God, deliver me from all temptations; or rather, obtain to me the strength to triumph over them until death.[/quote]Messy. We ask God to deliver us from temptation and then the prayer corrects itself by asking Mary to obtain strength. It's too much.
[quote]Of you I ask a perfect love for Jesus Christ. [/quote]I'm not sure that Mary can grant this. Your asking her to give you perfect love. I'm not comfortable at all with that.
[quote]Through you I hope to die a good death. O my Mother, by the love which you bear to God, I beseech you to help me at all times, but especially at the last moment of my life. Leave me not, I beseech you, until you see me safe in heaven, blessing you and singing your mercies for all eternity. Amen. So I hope. So may it be[/quote]This I have no problem with. It honors Mary as a channel of Grace, not as a source of Grace. It asks for her advocacy in obtaining graces and places hope in the graces she has recieved from God and hope in her kind nature to provide help in obtaining graces.

[bonoducchi]

"and I thank you for all the graces you have conferred on me until now, especially for having delivered me from hell, which I have so often deserved."

Can someone explain how Mary delivered me from Hell? Is it by virtue of her bearing the redeemer? Is it by virtue that she has prayed for me? It seems a bit convoluted to praise her for that - Christ saved me from hell by dying and rising. I don't pray to other saints thanking them for saving me from hell. Thoughts? Am I missing a piece of doctrine here? Or is it just the nasal decongestants?

In my understnading, she is co-redemptrix, but not co-redemptive. SHe merely unites herself fully to Chirst's redemptive work, but has no redeeming power of her own.

Edited April 16, 2007 by VaticanIILiturgist

[Justin (Wiccan)]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1245727' date='Apr 16 2007, 01:40 PM']After Protestantism was founded, and separated Our Lady from Christian piety, it may seem strange to some, but it is what it is.[/quote]

Additionally, the culture has changed to the point that even the common courtesies between one person and another that was acceptable--or even seen as necessary--then would seem excessive now.

Case in point: if I talk to my Mom on the phone, and Dad's not there, I might say "Tell Dad I love him" before I hang up. During the life of St. Alphonsus Liguori, if I was writing a letter to my mom, the equivalent greeting to Dad might be "I pray you, dear Lady, to remit to my esteemed Father the admiration and courtesy that is His due from His son." This was not seen as "excessive"--indeed, my father would have been highly insulted if I took an informal tone with my mother, or with him.

[Era Might]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1245734' date='Apr 16 2007, 12:46 PM']"and I thank you for all the graces you have conferred on me until now, especially for having delivered me from hell, which I have so often deserved."

Can someone explain how Mary delivered me from Hell? Is it by virtue of her bearing the redeemer? Is it by virtue that she has prayed for me? It seems a bit convoluted to praise her for that - Christ saved me from hell by dying and rising. I don't pray to other saints thanking them for saving me from hell. Thoughts? Am I missing a piece of doctrine here? Or is it just the nasal decongestants?[/quote]
I know someone who says his wife saved his life, that he would have become an alcoholic if he had never met her. Did she literally and directly save his life? No, and neither does the idea negate the fact that God ultimately is our savior. But it is still true that meeting her saved his life in a way, because it turned him away from something destructive. The prayers of Our Lady are great and powerful before her Son, and she is not an impersonal relation, but she is truly our mother.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1245739' date='Apr 16 2007, 01:51 PM']I know someone who says his wife saved his life, that he would have become an alcoholic if he had never met her. Did she literally and directly save his life? No, and neither does the idea negate the fact that God ultimately is our savior. But it is still true that meeting her saved his life in a way, because it turned him away from something destructive. The prayers of Our Lady are great and powerful before her Son, and she is not an impersonal relation, but she is truly our mother.[/quote]But you didn't answer his question (or mine). Does Mary actuall control Grace to the extent it's accurate to say she 'confers' Grace? I too can say my wife saved my life, but because she was/is a channel of God's Grace, not because she is so HOLY that she bestows salvifica grace upon me (though she might be willing to discuss that possibility ) .

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1245739' date='Apr 16 2007, 12:51 PM']I know someone who says his wife saved his life, that he would have become an alcoholic if he had never met her. Did she literally and directly save his life? No, and neither does the idea negate the fact that God ultimately is our savior. But it is still true that meeting her saved his life in a way, because it turned him away from something destructive. The prayers of Our Lady are great and powerful before her Son, and she is not an impersonal relation, but she is truly our mother.[/quote]

With all due repsect, that doesn't really convince me. You illustration doesn't seem to relate how Mary has saved me from hell in a way that merits thanking her. She bore the redeemer, but it was indeed the redeemer who engaged in the saving act. Thanking her for saving me from hell seesm to equalize her actions with the redeemers. It aslo does not seem to point the prayer towards a Christological understaing of redemption, which is a characterisitc of all true Marian devotion (cf. Marialis Cultus). Thanking one person for the actions of another doesn't make sense to me. If the prayer was "And I thank theee, dear Mother, for thy humble obidience and unity with the work of your Redeeming Son, by whom all men escape the fires of hell and gain eternal life with you forever, and ever" that's a prayer I could get behind, becuase it very clearly directs the faithful towards the redeemer.

[Era Might]

[quote name='VaticanIILiturgist' post='1245747' date='Apr 16 2007, 12:59 PM']With all due repsect, that doesn't really convince me. You illustration doesn't seem to relate how Mary has saved me from hell in a way that merits thanking her. She bore the redeemer, but it was indeed the redeemer who engaged in the saving act. Thanking her for saving me from hell seesm to equalize her actions with the redeemers. It aslo does not seem to point the prayer towards a Christological understaing of redemption, which is a characterisitc of all true Marian devotion (cf. Marialis Cultus). Thanking one person for the actions of another doesn't make sense to me. If the prayer was "And I thank theee, dear Mother, for thy humble obidience and unity with the work of your Redeeming Son, by whom all men escape the fires of hell and gain eternal life with you forever, and ever" that's a prayer I could get behind, becuase it very clearly directs the faithful towards the redeemer.[/quote]
You cannot separate Christ from his Saints. When Saul of Tarsus was persecuting Christians in the Book of Acts, Our Lord says to him "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" Christ obtained the grace of salvation by his paschal mystery, but the history of salvation is not ended. This grace must be applied throughout time, and he uses his Saints and his Church to do this. We pray for sinners for a reason, because God takes our prayers and our sacrifices into account, because we share in his plan of redemption. Our Lord told St. Faustina that many souls are lost because they have no one to pray for them. The prayers of Our Lady and all the Saints, and indeed, the entire Church, keep us on the path to salvation. St. Alphonsus specifically refers to the many times he was in danger of hell. He is not giving a theological treatise on the atonment, he is expressing the fact that every moment we have a choice to make between Heaven and Hell, and among the Saints there is no advocate more powerful than Our Lady. The prayers of Our Lady truly do save us from falling into mortal sin, and thus from hell, because the Saints are cooperators in the plan of redemption.

"The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects." --James 5:16

When a Priest confects the Holy Eucharist, it is true that Christ is acting through him, but the Priest is also acting personally, so that it is not incorrect to say a Priest has the power to change bread and wine into the body and blood of Our Lord. In the same way it is not incorrect to say the prayers of the Saints save us from hell, because they act personally, and not as impersonal agents, even though it is always Christ acting in and through them.

[bonoducchi]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1245753' date='Apr 16 2007, 01:04 PM']You cannot separate Christ from his Saints. When Saul of Tarsus was persecuting Christians in the Book of Acts, Our Lord says to him "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?" Christ obtained the grace of salvation by his paschal mystery, but the history of salvation is not ended. This grace must be applied throughout time, and he uses his Saints and his Church to do this. We pray for sinners for a reason, because God takes our prayers and our sacrifices into account, because we share in his plan of redemption. Our Lord told St. Faustina that many souls are lost because they have no one to pray for them. The prayers of Our Lady and all the Saints, and indeed, the entire Church, keep us on the path to salvation. St. Alphonsus specifically refers to the many times he was in danger of hell. He is not giving a theological treatise on the atonment, he is expressing the fact that every moment we have a choice to make between Heaven and Hell, and among the Saints there is no advocate more powerful than Our Lady. The prayers of Our Lady truly do save us from falling into mortal sin, and thus from hell, because the Saints are cooperators in the plan of redemption.

"The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects." --James 5:16[/quote]

St. Alphonsus prays "especially for having delivered me from hell, which I have so often deserved." He seesm to imply hell itself, not in danger of. If you are correct, I woulld have prayed differently.

We are not redemptive. Not me, not you, not Mary, not the saints. We can pray for redemption, and can unite ourselves to the plan of salvation, but it is the Father's alone to give through the Son. Mary cannot be a provider of redemption - she can mearly aid, albeit greatly, in procuring it from the Father through her Son.

The prayer of righteous men may be powerful, but they are certainly not more powerful or important than the work of Christ.

How do you respond to the concern that the prayer we are discussing does not properly frame Mary's role as redemptrix in a Christological context?