Building Your Own Church.

[cmotherofpirl]

You do NOT pick a church that conforms to your current your beliefs [ whatever they currently are this month or year].
You pick a church because it contains the fullness of TRUTH.

[zdog042]

And right there is the difference between Protestants and Catholics.

The correct church for Catholics is the one which has the most correct theology. They will be able to bring you along and help you grow the best.
To Protestants, the best church is that which is within the style which they need to learn the best. As the person grows, they may need a different style and thus a different church within Christianity.

With one, the dogma is the focal point, within the other, teaching. With one, you must be prepared before starting, with the other, you can learn as you go along. With one, you need the guide rope, with the other, you forge your own path. These two are completely separate worldviews, and as this tiny exchange has shown, they speak past one another. Within my post, I said nothing about beliefs, I mentioned learning styles. Additionaly, within Protestant circles, (this may come as a shock to many who frequently deal with fundis like budge) we tend to believe that we are all equally Christian. We are all Christian, belong to the same body, and so can share people who attend our churches. If our church building is not helping a person grow in their spiritual faith, we tend to be quick to let them go to a place that they can grow. We would rather see them grow into a healthy christian than to stay within the boarders of our particular church. This is very different from Catholics, and I don't even know if everybody on this board could understand what I am saying. I am afraid that I am speaking past people because of the wording I use. A valid fear.

Because of this difference, and because you can not phrase your response in a way that doesn't completely contradict everything the majority of protestants hold dear, you leave me no room to actually respond. You have laid down an ultimatum, and left no room for response, we only have the option of hitting each other with words until one of us budges. What can I say to what you say? If I say no, then I lose. If I say yes, then I lose. If I try to clarify my response, I have avoided the question and not answered. YES/NO questions are misleading, and the only response to that statement is a YES/NO. Of course, this could be because we may be speaking past each other.

When two opposing viewpoints are at a standstill, when they are locked and there seems to be no way out, synthesis is the only option. The major philosophical strides happen with synthesis. A major component of this is being able to talk to both sides, in language that both understand. To say what you say just speaks over the head of most Protestants, they will look at you like you just swore because they do not understand what you just said. They will look at you like you are crazy, because they didn't even mention their beliefs. Their beliefs have stayed the same, they just looked for a different school.

To clarify, within the people I was talking for (not my full viewpoint), I was not talking about beliefs. I was talking about learning styles. As you grow, the way that you best absorb data changes. When you are a child, you may want to touch everything. As an adult, you may prefer to read about it. This style changes, but what you believe does not have to.

I am not even getting into the discussion of who is right and who is wrong. According to what I read on this thread, you wanted to know why Protestants thought the way they thought. Do you think I am going to defend their point of view? I am very against the planting of churches when you plan for their death in 40-80 years. This is the favored form of evangelism of one of my professors, and I fought him tooth & nail (good record company) about it because I do not believe that we should be planting churches as fast as we can.

Language is the hardest thing in inter-Christian dialogues. We mean different things by the same words. This takes time to work out, but when we do it is very rewarding.

[Paddington]

Akalyte,

I'll try to give a Prot answer....

1. Luther was just trying to reform. (don't ask me how true this is)
2. Politics and war got in the way of Christian unity as it had before there were Protestants. (don't ask me for details, because I don't know them. But I still think this one is pretty big.)
3. What about people who believe in Jesus and don't agree with all the Pope's teachings? Why not build a church? And then why not make a denom for practical reasons afterwards?
4. What about people who believe in Jesus and won't consider the Catholic Church, because of contradictions and obscurities in the history of the Church's teaching? Why not just build a church and then.....a denom?

There are Prots who believe just this.
There are also Prots who (might as well) believe that the complete, bound Bible fell in mass quantities from the sky in all tongues on the completely literate earth with explicit instructions to only follow the perspicuous Bible coming from a burning bush that was heard by all people of all time.

Peace,
Paddington

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Budge' post='1244839' date='Apr 15 2007, 04:40 PM']Was the guy casting out demons wrong for building "his own church"?

Mar 9:38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, [u]we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
[/u]
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, [b]Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.[/b][/quote]

that quote often reminds me not to condemn our christian brothers and sisters as well. however, you seem to know much about church history and the Catholic Church, so it seems many would hold you more accountable for knowing the truth. but then again, you don't fully understand it to be the true church so..

afaik, if you knew the Catholic Church is the true church, but turned to islam because you loved your muslim girlfriend so much, that would be the grave sin we're talking about.

i feel the most sorrow for the little ones and most of the younger generation who don't even know about church history and are raised to despise the Church. best question evar i've heard many times, "Catholics are christians?"

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1246787' date='Apr 16 2007, 09:45 PM']You do NOT pick a church that conforms to your current your beliefs [ whatever they currently are this month or year].
You pick a church because it contains the fullness of TRUTH.[/quote]

You don't think that Roman Catholics [and every other Catholic including Orthodox for that matter] join their churches [referring to converts] because it conforms to their beliefs? I'm gonna say that I wouldn't have been Christmated and taken the Eucharist as Jesus' Body and Blood if it weren't for the Catholic Church conforming to my beliefs. My beliefs were that I wanted to worship God as he desired to be worshiped and belong to the church that the Early Church Fathers and Saints belonged to, so I'd chosen The Church because of that, it conformed to my beliefs.

Reza

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1246945' date='Apr 17 2007, 08:30 AM']You don't think that Roman Catholics [and every other Catholic including Orthodox for that matter] join their churches [referring to converts] because it conforms to their beliefs? I'm gonna say that I wouldn't have been Christmated and taken the Eucharist as Jesus' Body and Blood if it weren't for the Catholic Church conforming to my beliefs. My beliefs were that I wanted to worship God as he desired to be worshiped and belong to the church that the Early Church Fathers and Saints belonged to, so I'd chosen The Church because of that, it conformed to my beliefs.

Reza[/quote]

No, we [converts] had to conform our own will and beliefs to the Catholic Church. There are ways in which I would prefer to interpret scripture differently than the Church, but I do not have a personal guarantee that my interpretations are protected by the Holy Spirit.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I think for a lot of converts (keeping in mind that I'm not a convert, but a revert), they saw something that did conform to their thinking, but then also saw things that they would have to conform to. For me, I chose the Catholic Church because, although at one time I didn't agree with many of her teachings, I did truly believe that God guaranteed the Catholic faith. Finding that the Church was in union with my personal thought in that regard, I came to conform myself to the Catholic Church in all other regards, because really, who am I to argue with the Holy Spirit?

God bless,

Micah

[Anomaly]

Good grief.

What Reza meant was that everybody is most likely choosing their religion according to what best is in line with their conscience, which, according to the current RC Catechism, is where God speaks directly to each man. Nobody should be choosing to act in conflict with what they believe their conscience is telling them. God did not intend us to be automotons. Agree with Reza and add qualifications, don't just quibble.

Right or wrong (we are imperfect) people should be trying to listen and follow their conscience. Being narrowminded is not being open to correction from your conscience. Yes, it's an involved process to pray, learn, listen to others (including those who you have a high regard), and for Catholics (the Church).

That's why the Catholic Church doesn't condemn people who may not be Catholic because they believe they are following God's guidance via the conscience. We aren't infallible and have a merciful and omniscient God to judge us and (thankfully) not each other. You may (and the RC Church does) firmly committed to the belief others are in error, but that is a smaller wrong than purposely acting against their conscience.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Anomaly

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1246945' date='Apr 17 2007, 06:30 AM']You don't think that Roman Catholics [and every other Catholic including Orthodox for that matter] join their churches [referring to converts] because it conforms to their beliefs? I'm gonna say that I wouldn't have been Christmated and taken the Eucharist as Jesus' Body and Blood if it weren't for the Catholic Church conforming to my beliefs. My beliefs were that I wanted to worship God as he desired to be worshiped and belong to the church that the Early Church Fathers and Saints belonged to, so I'd chosen The Church because of that, it conformed to my beliefs.

Reza[/quote]

Nope. I certainly didn't. I am catholic because the Catholic Church is the one founded by Jesus Christ. The Church is the pillar of truth, NOT my personal interpretation. If it had been up to me I would have picked something much easier to live with. But God doesn't ask our opinion of His rules, HE simply asks for obedience and faithfulness.

So you pick what is TRUE, not with is comfortable.

read my little caption below

[Justified Saint]

The Catholic Church doesn't teach that one's conscience is infallible, or that, right or wrong, you follow it always because you cannot do otherwise. There is such a thing as an informed conscience, and that is what everyone should strive for.

[Katholikos]

One God (1 Tm 2:5), one lawgiver and judge (James 4:12), one Lord, one faith, one baptism (Ephesians 4:5), one narrow gate that leads to life (Mt 7:14), one flock, one shepherd (John 10:16), one church (Mt 16:18-19). And Jesus prayed, ". . . may they [his followers] all be one, so that the world may believe that you sent me" (John 17:20).

The greatest obstacle to belief in Christianity and evangelization efforts is the thousands of competing and conflicting Protestant denominations, all claiming to offer the truth. "Get the correct interpretation of the Bible here," they all shout.

Yeah, what we really need is more of them. No two alike. Choose your own truth.

Likos

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1247009' date='Apr 17 2007, 08:39 AM']Nope. I certainly didn't. I am catholic because the Catholic Church is the one founded by Jesus Christ. The Church is the pillar of truth, NOT my personal interpretation. If it had been up to me I would have picked something much easier to live with. But God doesn't ask our opinion of His rules, HE simply asks for obedience and faithfulness.

So you pick what is TRUE, not with is comfortable.

read my little caption below [/quote]

Weather you accept it or not, this is what conformed to your beliefs. You believe that the Roman Catholic Church is the only church founded by Jesus Christ, which is why you chose it. If it went against everything you believed in, then you wouldn't be Roman Catholic because you wouldn't believe or have faith in it.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1246631' date='Apr 16 2007, 11:42 PM']No, and you understand that is not the case. Lets say a specific church to reach young couples, or a specific church to reach asian immigrants. Not polygamist.
It makes me sad to hear such polemic words from you friend
Your own family?

Words are beyond me. But you guys all pretty much smell of elderberries right now. I pray to God and to all the saints that I never have the perspective that you display here. If saying this makes me never a militant, or it even gets me a phisy that is fine. Heck, a mod might edit this. But you guys... I dunno. Why would you ever say that? Are protestants unintellgent hippies? Children on a lil bus? Are they less than you? For a protestant to have a legit faith takes so much time, and so much commitment to the scriptures and to love. To council and hold the weak. My own convinctions of the sacraments and the authority of history led to my conversion. But dont think for a second I felt protestantism lacking. (I felt there was plenty of idiots involved, but I think the same for catholicism) I have spent the better part of 3 years now on this website, i have spent countless hours reading posts from you guys. I have spent time in dialogue with you guys. I have grown to respect and love you as brothers. But to see you beat down and dehumanize someone who is for me an example of heartfilled faith that I have spent numerous parts of the last 4 years desiring to be like, it just leaves me overwhelmed.[/quote]

First of all, my comment "divided and conquerable..." was not a thought of taking up proverbial swords and conquering the proverbial churches, but an observation that there is vulnerability in there communities. I know that they are real people with real dignities and real intellects. But these people have a real fallen nature too, and there is fallibility in their communities. There are many a time a community splits over a small detail; the devil wanders around with a chisel in his hand... or an axe... chose your analogy (chisel stone in two or chop wood in two... ) . I was a protestant once and I chose The Church (ultimately) because of the Full truth. Not because I felt it was my way of interpreting the bible.

My apologies to those offended. God Bless you all and Our Lady keep.

Edited April 18, 2007 by Sacred Music Man