Fornication Or Masturbation

[ironmonk]

[quote name='the 13th papist' post='1505281' date='Apr 21 2008, 04:12 AM']Both are grave, all sin is has a communal nature. Masturbation is more disordered by its very nature.[/quote]


But when one masterbates, they only cause themselves to sin... a single soul in grave sin... when one commits fornication, they cause another person to sin in addition to their own sin. Two souls in grave sin instead of one.

I would have to say that fornication is the greater sin, even though both are grave.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='thedude' post='1242279' date='Apr 14 2007, 12:14 AM']I believe both to be grave matter. I consider fornication to be more grave, however, as it always directly involves another person in the sin.[/quote]
I second that.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1483260' date='Mar 24 2008, 06:13 PM']It made me cry to think of all the things my future wife will be ashamed that I have done, and rightfully so. It makes so much sense though. Even to think that say my future wife has French kissed a man makes me deeply sad in my heart. Not to mention fornication or masturbation. I think when it comes to the wedding night if I discuss these things with my wife. If one has slept with another person, and if the other has masturbated, I won't feel like one saved anything for marriage that the other hasn't.[/quote]

On your wedding night, you shouldn't be mourning over your past failures...if both of you have been to confession (which you should before receiving the Sacrament of Marriage) ALL your sins, regardless of how bad they were are forgiven. You are given new life. You shouldn't keep thinking about your past sins, nor of your future wife's sins...because God Himself has forgotten them.

To allow your past sins to do this to you would be allowing sin to triumph over your lives and your happiness. God is the ONE who triumphs after you have received absolution for all your sins. Your sins have lost! God is the winner!

To hold on to past sexual sins would drive you crazy! Remember St. Augustine? If he held on to his past, he probably would not have persevered in the Religious life! He would have probably allowed his past sins to conquer his mind, and make him feel that he wasn't worthy of anything anymore!

In keeping with the subject at hand, I feel fornication is the worst because it involves two souls mortal sinning as masturbation involves only one.

[Apotheoun]

Both are grave sins.

That said, I hold that masturbation is worse because it is an unnatural use of the generative organs, so it is both gravely sinful and unnatural; while fornication is gravely sinful, but the act in question is [i]per se[/i] natural.

[HisChildForever]

This might have been said before, but...

Just because fornication involves two people, doesn't mean it's worse than masturbation. In fornication, the pair shouldn't be seen as a pair but as [b]individuals[/b]. Just as an [b]individual[/b] masturbates. In fornication, each person willingly commits to the act. Whether or not one claims to have been "seduced" the truth is that both take responsibility for their own actions.

I think both (fornication and masturbation) are on the same page.

Edit:

[quote]when one commits fornication, they cause another person to sin in addition to their own sin.[/quote]

How does one individual cause another individual to sin? We all have free will. You can't force someone to sin. Random names here: Mike may want to "fool around" with Michelle, but Michelle, being a good Catholic, doesn't want to sin or lead Mike into sin. That's the reasoning here, right? Well, Mike can just go on out and "fool around" with Melanie. He brings himself into the sin. It's completely his decision.

Edited July 6, 2008 by HisChildForever

[XIX]

Causing sin =\= forcing one to sin

Causing sin is more like placing temptation before the weak.

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1592455' date='Jul 5 2008, 10:15 PM']This might have been said before, but...

Just because fornication involves two people, doesn't mean it's worse than masturbation. In fornication, the pair shouldn't be seen as a pair but as [b]individuals[/b]. Just as an [b]individual[/b] masturbates. In fornication, each person willingly commits to the act. Whether or not one claims to have been "seduced" the truth is that both take responsibility for their own actions.

I think both (fornication and masturbation) are on the same page.

Edit:
How does one individual cause another individual to sin? We all have free will. You can't force someone to sin. Random names here: Mike may want to "fool around" with Michelle, but Michelle, being a good Catholic, doesn't want to sin or lead Mike into sin. That's the reasoning here, right? Well, Mike can just go on out and "fool around" with Melanie. He brings himself into the sin. It's completely his decision.[/quote]

I agree with this.

Which mortal SIN is more grevious to God, done willingly by each individual? Perhaps the individual gravity is judged by each situation and where the person's heart/conscience/knowledge/understanding is at the time, and how hardened they may be toward God and his/her neighbor. In fornication, for example, He may judge one of the people involved more harshly than the other for each of their sins, depending on "where they are." In a marriage, a man is cheating on his wife by masturbating to pictures of other women, and perhaps he also causes her to gravely sin as a result of the pain and despair he knowingly causes her.

I doubt God generalizes in his judgments or carries such a legalistic view of sin that would make it a simple cut and dry comparison.

Edited July 12, 2008 by lilac_angel

[Deb]

I think God judges sin by what is or was in our hearts and also by the gravity of the sin.

[color="#800000"]"Our Lord said to Pilate ([i]John 19:11[/i]): 'He that hath delivered me to thee, hath the greater sin."

The above indicates that there are different degrees of sin.

[/color][color="#000000"]"And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous..." Hmmmm, I think there was a lot of fornicating going on there. All kinds.

I found a fantastic read about sin on this web site. The part on the loss of sense of sin and the personal and social sins are very good.

[url="http://www.catholic-pages.com/morality/sin.asp"]http://www.catholic-pages.com/morality/sin.asp[/url][/color]

[lilac_angel]

Masturbation can be considered either mental fornication or adultery of the mind, depending on whether one is married or not.

The term sodomy, an unnatural sexual act, came out of Sodom, and masturbation is one of the most unnatural sexual acts.

Both Jesus and the Old Testament teach that God's law is concerned not only with external and outward actions but also with the attitudes of heart and mind that lead to the actions. The action as well as the intent to carry out the action are both condemned as violations of God's law. In the seventh commandment Jesus includes the lustful look and the sinful imagination. There is adultery of the body and adultery of the mind. Job spoke of making a covenant with his eyes, and not gazing at a virgin (31:1). Peter also makes reference to those who have "eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin" (2 Pet. 2:14).

James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

2 Peter 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

Persistent or recurring sin jeopardizes spiritual life much as a gangrenous infection threatens physical health. In a way, since masturbation can be a more persistent, recurring, addictive sin always centered on pure selfishness, it could potentially be more grevious (causing great sorrow) to God in the respect that it can kill a soul more deceptively, if not because it is the more unnatural act. Perhaps it causes more of a gradual death of the soul, but death nonetheless.

Bottom line... I guess we can speculate which mortal sin will get us to a potentially less hot part of hell, since there are degrees of sin, but speculation is pretty much all it will be, and both sins obviously should be avoided like the plague.

Edited July 13, 2008 by lilac_angel

[Deb]

I guess I pretty much have concluded that whichever of these sins I might partake of (hopefully neither will come to pass) and that I have to confess, will be the worst.

[Balthazor]

You know I really can't tell you.
I mean, I have done both and they both make you feel like croutons equally.

However.
I think that the actual acts greivousness depends on intent. For example: you fornicate because you boyfriend pressures you into it and you love him and want to please him so you say ok. Or say you are caught up in passion... I think that then if you end up in the sack becasue you are in love and passion that is less of a sin especailly if you fully intend marriage than masterbation because masterbation is purely selfish.
However if you go out and just use people...... then you might as well be masturbatinig, it is also selfish only it is worse because you can really hurt someone else.