Fornication Or Masturbation

[dairygirl4u2c]

SO some times mastubrating is worse, when the life that could come iwould not be in bad circumstances.
TO say masturbation is always worse because there's no potential for life is too simple statement to me. maybe usually or often. It'd seem fornicating when there's a possibility she might abort, or fornicating when having a kid that's in a very bad conditions is worse. I'm sure some say it's better to have kids even in sin despite the conditions, but it seems to me not having a kid and masturbating is better than that.

Edited April 16, 2007 by dairygirl4u2c

[Aloysius]

there's two lines of reasoning that could be followed here:

one: because sex is by nature something very good and beautiful, the more one twists that actual good into evil the more evil it is. something like: it'd be worse to desecrate a picture of Our Lord than of any other saint because a picture of Our Lord is more good and thus it is more evil to twist that good into evil. So to actually engage in the sex act, which is an objectively higher good because it is the incarnational mirror of the trinitarian embrace, whilst twisting it outside of its conext would be worse.

two: sex between man and woman is objectively a better thing than self-centered sex. therefore, masturbation would be listed as worse than actual sex because it is, by nature, less good and less natural; it does not express the greater good of sex between a man and a woman.

I would tend towards the first one; but this lends towards two different views of good and evil. evil doesn't actually exist, it's just a privation of good. so therefore, the higher the good that is perverted, the worse it is. so sex between a man and a woman is a higher good than masturbation or homosexuality; so when sex between a man and a woman is perverted it is worse; even though in a vacuum masturbation is worse than sex between a man and a woman out of its context.

the first one treats evil as a perversion better, the second one treats evil more like a positive reality. but they are both good perspectives.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i always like your way of thinking al. you're very original. i was getting down because no one's original, but i shouldn't forget a few folks here at pm.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1244953' date='Apr 15 2007, 07:41 PM']there's two lines of reasoning that could be followed here:

one: because sex is by nature something very good and beautiful, the more one twists that actual good into evil the more evil it is. something like: it'd be worse to desecrate a picture of Our Lord than of any other saint because a picture of Our Lord is more good and thus it is more evil to twist that good into evil. So to actually engage in the sex act, which is an objectively higher good because it is the incarnational mirror of the trinitarian embrace, whilst twisting it outside of its conext would be worse.

two: sex between man and woman is objectively a better thing than self-centered sex. therefore, masturbation would be listed as worse than actual sex because it is, by nature, less good and less natural; it does not express the greater good of sex between a man and a woman.

I would tend towards the first one; but this lends towards two different views of good and evil. evil doesn't actually exist, it's just a privation of good. so therefore, the higher the good that is perverted, the worse it is. so sex between a man and a woman is a higher good than masturbation or homosexuality; so when sex between a man and a woman is perverted it is worse; even though in a vacuum masturbation is worse than sex between a man and a woman out of its context.

the first one treats evil as a perversion better, the second one treats evil more like a positive reality. but they are both good perspectives.[/quote]
in response to the first, though, masturbation and homosexual sex are, along with fornication, both considered to be perversions of marital sex. So ... wouldn't masturbation be worse because it is more of a perversion than fornication, because it divorces the sex act from more of the characteristics of marital sex than fornication does? (unless that's what you're arguing and I'm misunderstanding you, which is entirely possible)

[Aloysius]

that'd be along the lines of the second line of thinking.

the first line of thinking is that the sex between a man and a woman is something sacred, and thus perverting that itself is perverting something more sacred. masturbation isn't, in this line of thinking, a perversion of the sex of a man and a woman, it's a perversion of the sexual organ of just one of them. perversion of sexual pleasure in this perspective is different than perversion of actual sex. sexual pleasure is not as high of a good as actual sex, therefore perversion of sexual pleasure would not be as bad as perversion of sex itself.

I see what you're saying, though. It would still fit in more with my second line of thinking, saying masturbation is more perverse because it has less of the good things in it (good things being procreation, unity, et cetera); because it has less of the good things in it and is less natural, that makes it more evil. that's a fine perspective; and works more in an objective sense. but I see how you're relating that increasing splitting of goods to the ultimate good sexual pleasure is ordered towards, and thus trying to apply it in the other paradigm. the crux of the other paradigm is that sex is a higher good than sexual pleasure.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1244767' date='Apr 15 2007, 07:49 PM']This is my opinion also.[/quote]
So lets go out and Fornicate, eh Thomas?

Both are equally distasteful, evil, and both sent Jesus Christ on the Cross. All of the replies I have read in this post make me wonder. You all look towards your own flesh, is this more wrong in my flesh, or is that more wrong in my flesh, and forget to look towards the spiritual.

Why debate sin, when we know who died and rose again to allow us to experience forgiveness for all the sins in the world!

[Aloysius]

Fulltruth, you would be right if all you were saying was that this is not the most important discussion that could be had. It has no practical application and all that; except some minor implications for pastoral care by priests.

But just because something isn't of primary importance, doesn't mean it should not be inquired about and debated about. God gave us rational souls and this is an exercise of them.

We could discuss the morality of burning ants or how many angels can dance on the tip of a needle if we so wished, and no one should tell us "stop discussing that, it has no importance", it has importance to people of rational curiosity.

both are mortal sins. both aided in crucifying our Lord (one moreso than the other, to some extent even if that extent is minute) and both are evil and ought to be condemned.

what is basically taken for granted among all who are replying is that this is an unimportant matter, but understanding it can help us understand the nature of sin better and thus help to fight sin better.

when it comes to our own personal sins, we should never view those comparatively; we should view them absolutely, only subjective in relation to their circumstances.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1247665' date='Apr 17 2007, 11:38 PM']Fulltruth, you would be right if all you were saying was that this is not the most important discussion that could be had. It has no practical application and all that; except some minor implications for pastoral care by priests.

But just because something isn't of primary importance, doesn't mean it should not be inquired about and debated about. God gave us rational souls and this is an exercise of them.

We could discuss the morality of burning ants or how many angels can dance on the tip of a needle if we so wished, and no one should tell us "stop discussing that, it has no importance", it has importance to people of rational curiosity.

both are mortal sins. both aided in crucifying our Lord (one moreso than the other, to some extent even if that extent is minute) and both are evil and ought to be condemned.

what is basically taken for granted among all who are replying is that this is an unimportant matter, but understanding it can help us understand the nature of sin better and thus help to fight sin better.

when it comes to our own personal sins, we should never view those comparatively; we should view them absolutely, only subjective in relation to their circumstances.[/quote]

Now if we want to turn this post around, I would be more than happy to detail how one can fight sin ultimately and powerfully.

I think I should post this up tonight, to help people.

[Aloysius]

this thread is to talk about the difference between these two specific sins. it may be unimportant to some extent; but that doesn't mean it should be ignored or that you should sidetrack the topic at hand. if you don't have anything to contribute to this particular subject, then don't contribute.

[kateri05]

[quote name='JeffCR07' post='1242765' date='Apr 14 2007, 09:06 AM']I agree with thedude's initial post here. While it is most certainly true that both are grave sins, it seems to me that fornication is worse. Knight is correct to say that, from the standpoint of material sin, masturbation is the more disordered of the two actions. However, it seems to me that there does not need to be a one-to-one correspondence between disorder and gravity. Because we are called to love and serve one another in the spirit of Truth, and the answer to Cain's question of "Am I my brother's keeper?" is most assuredly "yes," then it follows that, on account of the fact that fornication involves not just grave sin for oneself, but also the leading of another into grave sin, it is the "worse" of the two.[/quote]

what about when the person who masturbates is married? although it is not causing the spouse to sin, it is indeed harming the spouse.


because masturbation is inherently selfish, because its so disordered, i'm leaning towards meaning "more" wrong, although really they both require confession and we only have to distinguish between mortal and venial, so thas usually where i stopping thinking too hard

[johnnydigit]

seems clear to me that fornication is worse. take yourself to gehenna by yourself vs. taking another soul with you.

the weapon of choice for me is Mary. she's our mommy in army boots and i can't think one lustful thought while tugging on her mantle and her looking at me.

[dspen2005]

both fornication and masturbation are mortal sins -- there isn't a level of grievousness to this... they equally cut one off from the DIvine Life....

it's the same question as... which is the worse sin -- fornication with a man, fornication with a woman -- the answer is neither -- they are both mortal sins

[Pontifite 7 of 10]

Both are really bad, I mean REALLY, REALLY BAD! But Fornication is a bit worse because you are betraying the trust of your husband or wife so thats sorta two sins.

Edited April 22, 2007 by Pontifite 7 of 10

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Pontifite 7 of 10' post='1253395' date='Apr 22 2007, 05:20 PM']Both are really bad, I mean REALLY, REALLY BAD! But Fornication is a bit worse because you are betraying the trust of your husband or wife so thats sorta two sins.[/quote]

Fornication is premarital sex. You're thinking of adultery.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='dspen2005' post='1253118' date='Apr 22 2007, 01:17 PM']both fornication and masturbation are mortal sins -- there isn't a level of grievousness to this... they equally cut one off from the DIvine Life....

it's the same question as... which is the worse sin -- fornication with a man, fornication with a woman -- the answer is neither -- they are both mortal sins[/quote]

you just gave examples within the context of fornication. thus whether it is a man or woman is probably irrelevant as to the severity of the act alone. in general, you have sinned yourself, as well as helped another to sin. and what if it is a minor? you inflicted wounds on yourself as well as on the minor.

masturbation is within it's own and separate context, imo. *how* you may do it i guess is mostly irrelevant (no i'm not going to get into those details), but the wounds are generally on yourself.

both are mortal sins and equally cut you off, but i think what we're trying to get at is, which will you have to pay more for in purgatory, which is the more severe one.

Edited April 23, 2007 by johnnydigit