Fornication Or Masturbation

[ttomm46]

Isn't it plain by those Scriptures and church teaching that there are different degrees of sin?
even just using comman sense it should be obvious..

[Hirsap]

On the poll topic; I have this to say (someone else was saying something very similar to this). I believe masturbation to be more grevious than fornication, because, in addition to being an illicit use of the sexual faculty; it is also more manifestly [i]unnatural[/i]. It frustrates the natural end of the procreative act in a much more serious way than does fornication (which is nevertheless grave matter). In fornication, at least the act is naturally performed (this presumes no birth control of course; yet even if so, it would still be less unnatural than is masturbation); whereas in masturbation it is not, hence it is more disordered.

I learnt this from reading the opinion of St. Thomas Aquinas on the subject a bit back. Makes sense too.

However viewed in another way, as someone else mentioned above, fornication is more serious in how it is two individuals committing mortal sin (hence two mortal sins are being committed), not one. Not to mention scandal - in its true sense.

[Sojourner]

My initial thought was that masturbation would be worse because of the reasons Hirsap notes. But maybe fornication is worse because it's encompasses two types of sins ... one that you choose to commit with your own body and one that you encourage and enable another to commit?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1242389' date='Apr 14 2007, 01:10 AM']I'm only going with what the spirit taught me. All sins put Jesus Christ on the Cross, and he died for all sins. So each sin is equal, because Jesus died on the cross for it.

Don't focus on the letter (Law - commandments), focus on the spirit of the law. Jesus Christ died for all sins, so that should be our cry. Masturbation/Fornication - its all the same, because it all lead to the saviour's death. So why focus on the sins, when we can focus on the one who died for our sins?[/quote]
All offend God. But Scriptures lists grave sins, but they don't cover every sin, therefore some sins must be worse than others.

[Guest JeffCR07]

I agree with thedude's initial post here. While it is most certainly true that both are grave sins, it seems to me that fornication is worse. Knight is correct to say that, from the standpoint of material sin, masturbation is the more disordered of the two actions. However, it seems to me that there does not need to be a one-to-one correspondence between disorder and gravity. Because we are called to love and serve one another in the spirit of Truth, and the answer to Cain's question of "Am I my brother's keeper?" is most assuredly "yes," then it follows that, on account of the fact that fornication involves not just grave sin for oneself, but also the leading of another into grave sin, it is the "worse" of the two.

Also, I would like to say that, while FullTruth is very, very wrong about the nature of sin, I do think we ought to be very careful when discussing theoretical distinctions such as this. Both are mortal sins, and too much discussion along these lines does bear with it the temptation towards legalism, which should always be rejected.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[tate4242]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1242274' date='Apr 13 2007, 10:05 PM']I believe both fornication and masturbation to be sins of grave matter; and I am a baptized person who believes professes all the Dogmata and Doctrine of the Holy Catholic Church, and participates in the Sacraments of our Holy Mother the Church, and acknowledges the Pope and the other Lawful Pastors.

I shall wait until later to state my opinion on whether masturbation or fornication is the more grievous sin.[/quote]

Shalom:

I am a Hebraic Roots Christian who hopes to convert to Catholicism and I personally do consider that both masturbation and fornications would both be considered sins...but masturbation only harms myself whereas fornication can begin the process to cause a woman to become callous, hardened, unbelieving that anybody is willing to marry her.

I personally had confronted this question quite early in life. I read "The Missing Dimension in Sex" by Mr. Herbert Armstrong when I was about fifteen years old. I was not thrilled to find out that fornication and masturbation were sins but I never masturbated until after my first marriage (which incidentally ended in divorce). Once everything had began working I decided that it was a vastly less serious sin to masturbate and as my ex-wife and I were separated I masturbated partly to be moreso in control....less easily tempted by other lady friends.

There is a Levitical law stating that if a man has an emission of semen he should wash with water and be unclean ceremonially until evening. I believe that an emission of semen is a serious thing....those little guys can really help start a human life....for them to be spilled and die may be kind of rough for them because after reading "The Secret Life of Plants" I believe that a case can be made that consciousness has been given to vastly smaller creatures/even cells....than we possibly could have imagined.

I believe that it is vastly less harmful to masturbate and take a shower than it is to fall into temptation and disappoint one of our lady friends who believes that we are the type of guys who try our best to be faithful within marriage.

Yahushua/Jesus mentioned "judgment" even before mercy and faith...I consider it very necessary to think of the laws as a heirarchy.....

In my opinion...when Yahushua/Jesus posed the question to the Pharisees: "Is it lawful on the Sabbath day to do good or to do evil...to save life or to kill" he was partly referring to the situation faced by the Machabee Jews...who decided to kill Greco-Syrian soldiers....even on the Sabbath... who were following an anti-Christ type of person....rather than to refuse to fight and be massacred as over a thousand of their fellow Jews had been.

To my thinking...this question by Yahushua/Jesus relates to all Catholics who may be in the armed forces or be police officers. They can take their shift and defend life....even if they have to kill to do it....even on the Sabbaths!

[tate4242]

oops...sorry..I almost posted the same thing twice.....

Here is a great link to read about what the Machabees faced:

[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/45001.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/45001.htm[/url]

[quote]36 But they answered them not, neither did they cast a stone at them, nor stopped up the secret places, 37 Saying: Let us all die in our innocency: and heaven and earth shall be witnesses for us, that you put us to death wrongfully. 38 So they gave them battle on the sabbath: and they were slain with their wives, and their children, and their cattle, to the number of a thousand persons. 39 And Mathathias and his friends heard of it, and they mourned for them exceedingly. 40 And every man said to his neighbour: If we shall all do as our brethren have done, and not fight against the heathens for our lives, and our justifications: they will now quickly root us out of the earth.[/quote]

I personally believe that there is some truth to the evolutionary theory..but I believe that Intelligent Life evolved in the Super Force/Super Energetic Matter tenth or eleventh space - time dimensional continuum where electromagnetism, gravity, weak and strong nuclear force are all unified....This force/wave environment would always have existed and always will exist....The Creator/YHWH is foremost an inventor/scientist...and only after He Created Other Life forms did He have to get into legislation/laws and theology....If we think in terms of The Creator as a scientist first....it is much easier to grasp the concept of heirarchy of laws.....and realize that all of us exist within an epic reality film designed to test all of us to see if we have at least two or three clues to rub together before The Creator can entrust us with more and more information/knowledge....

It is intriguing to me that Sir Richard Branson and those with him seem to have a much better grasp of the gravity facing humanity through global warming...whereas many fundamentalist Christians are viewing global warming as a hoax???!!!!!

"the children of this world are wiser in their generation than the children of light"

Edited April 14, 2007 by tate4242

[FullTruth]

[quote name='JeffCR07' post='1242765' date='Apr 14 2007, 12:06 PM']I agree with thedude's initial post here. While it is most certainly true that both are grave sins, it seems to me that fornication is worse. Knight is correct to say that, from the standpoint of material sin, masturbation is the more disordered of the two actions. However, it seems to me that there does not need to be a one-to-one correspondence between disorder and gravity. Because we are called to love and serve one another in the spirit of Truth, and the answer to Cain's question of "Am I my brother's keeper?" is most assuredly "yes," then it follows that, on account of the fact that fornication involves not just grave sin for oneself, but also the leading of another into grave sin, it is the "worse" of the two.

Also, I would like to say that, while FullTruth is very, very wrong about the nature of sin, I do think we ought to be very careful when discussing theoretical distinctions such as this. Both are mortal sins, and too much discussion along these lines does bear with it the temptation towards legalism, which should always be rejected.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff[/quote]

Hmmm...

I'm wrong about the nature of sin? That all Sin was paid for by the Cross. Interesting. . .

The more I read from you Jeff, the more I have to disagree with you.

At least your last statement shows you know that there is a leaning towards legalism. I hate legalism, because the word killeth and the spirit maketh alive.

Both put Christ on the cross, and both are equal because they had the same cost.

Show me, other than profaning the holy spirit, any sin that is not forgivable.

Edited April 14, 2007 by FullTruth

[toledo_jesus]

I believe them to be of equal gravity.

However, this is only when they are done with complete knowledge of wrong and a willing decision to carry them out. Masturbation can be especially difficult for young men who are swimming in hormones to their eyeballs.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Hirsap' post='1242620' date='Apr 13 2007, 11:49 PM']On the poll topic; I have this to say (someone else was saying something very similar to this). I believe masturbation to be more grevious than fornication, because, in addition to being an illicit use of the sexual faculty; it is also more manifestly [i]unnatural[/i]. It frustrates the natural end of the procreative act in a much more serious way than does fornication (which is nevertheless grave matter). In fornication, at least the act is naturally performed (this presumes no birth control of course; yet even if so, it would still be less unnatural than is masturbation); whereas in masturbation it is not, hence it is more disordered.

I learnt this from reading the opinion of St. Thomas Aquinas on the subject a bit back. Makes sense too.

However viewed in another way, as someone else mentioned above, fornication is more serious in how it is two individuals committing mortal sin (hence two mortal sins are being committed), not one. Not to mention scandal - in its true sense.[/quote]

This is my opinion also.

[matthew1618]

There both mortal sin and very bad. When it really comes down to it, It doesn't matter which is worst because there both mortally sinful. If you're reading this I wouldn't encourage you to commit these sins nor telling others that one of these sins are better than the other one.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHGi_1r6qZk&feature=PlayList&p=30D51C8C8AD7F53D&index=32"] : [/url]

[cathoholic_anonymous]

I agree with Matthew. Mortal sin is mortal sin! Rather than wondering which is worse, I will solve the problem by steering clear of both those things...

[Socrates]

Masturbation is considered [i]objectively[/i] more disordered, as it is contrary to the natural order of procreation.
St. Thomas ranked it behind only bestiality and homosexuality in level of disorderdness.
However, there are other mitgating factors which come into play when judging the sinfulness of an individual act - mastubation can be a very hard habit to break.

However, both are objectively mortal sins, and should be discouraged.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1244876' date='Apr 15 2007, 06:02 PM']Masturbation is considered [i]objectively[/i] more disordered, as it is contrary to the natural order of procreation.
St. Thomas ranked it behind only bestiality and homosexuality in level of disorderdness.
However, there are other mitgating factors which come into play when judging the sinfulness of an individual act - mastubation can be a very hard habit to break.

However, both are objectively mortal sins, and should be discouraged.[/quote]

Is this in Summa or one of the Angelic Doctor's other works?

[Socrates]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1244878' date='Apr 15 2007, 07:03 PM']Is this in Summa or one of the Angelic Doctor's other works?[/quote]
Summa Theologica, I beleive. Unfortunately, I don't remember the exact book. I found it while researching for one of the debates on homosexuality.