Fornication Or Masturbation

[Resurrexi]

I believe both fornication and masturbation to be sins of grave matter; and I am a baptized person who believes professes all the Dogmata and Doctrine of the Holy Catholic Church, and participates in the Sacraments of our Holy Mother the Church, and acknowledges the Pope and the other Lawful Pastors.

I shall wait until later to state my opinion on whether masturbation or fornication is the more grievous sin.

Edited April 14, 2007 by StThomasMore

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I believe both to be grave matter. I consider fornication to be more grave, however, as it always directly involves another person in the sin.

Edited April 14, 2007 by thedude

[FullTruth]

How about Option 3,

Both are equal.

are you saying either one is a lesser sin than the other St. Thomas? If you are, I will remind you of this scripture.

[quote name='"Matthew 5:18-20' date=' KJV"']For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

[b]Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven[/b]: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.[/quote]

Even posing this question, without an option 3, suggests you think one is better than the other, which is unbiblical.

Jesus would have died on the cross to forgive one person for sinning one sin throughout all of time. So no matter what sin we talk about, Jesus died for it. So if it has the same cost, Jesus' death on the cross, than each is equally wrong, because it murdered someone!

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

[quote]I believe both to be grave matter. I consider fornication to my more grave, however, as it always directly involves another person in the sin.[/quote]

I could definitley see your point of view...but may I offer another?

Fornication, while mortally sinful, still obtains the unitive purpose of sexuality (though maybe not the procreative). Yet, maybe it would be correct to say that masturbation is of greater disorder, as it is not 1.) Open to life (obvioulsy) 2.) Not an expression of love 3.) It [i]requires[/i] lust (of the imagination) 4.) It lacks the unity or mutual love that intercourse offers.

It's hard to contemplate which grave sin is the most grave. Yet, we can still speculate as to which of the two is a greater contradiction to God's order.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Knight of the Holy Rosary' post='1242288' date='Apr 14 2007, 12:26 AM']I could definitley see your point of view...but may I offer another?

Fornication, while mortally sinful, still obtains the unitive purpose of sexuality (though maybe not the procreative). Yet, maybe it would be correct to say that masturbation is of greater disorder, as it is not 1.) Open to life (obvioulsy) 2.) Not an expression of love 3.) It [i]requires[/i] lust (of the imagination) 4.) It lacks the unity or mutual love that intercourse offers.

It's hard to contemplate which grave sin is the most grave. Yet, we can still speculate as to which of the two is a greater contradiction to God's order.[/quote]
I'm going to High Jack this thread, because I want to drill this into people.

Both murdered Jesus Christ, because he went to the cross to redeem all man kind!

Who cares about vain philosophies - which is better, and which is worse. Both put Jesus Christ on the CROSS! IS IT THE SIN YOU ARE FOCUSED ON, OR IS IT JESUS CHRIST, AND HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS!

THIS IS A VERY VAIN, VAIN, VAIN, VAIN, VEXATION OF THE SPIRIT THREAD. I AM GRIEVING IN THE HOLY GHOST EVEN THINKING ABOUT THIS THREAD.

How can any of you, professing to love Jesus Christ, debate such a thing. Both put Jesus Christ on the cross?

Edited April 14, 2007 by FullTruth

[prose]

I think they are both grave matters, and that it doesn't matter what [i]I[/i] think is worse.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1242297' date='Apr 13 2007, 10:36 PM']I'm going to High Jack this thread, because I want to drill this into people.

Both murdered Jesus Christ, because he went to the cross to redeem all man kind!

Who cares about vain philosophies - which is better, and which is worse. Both put Jesus Christ on the CROSS! IS IT THE SIN YOU ARE FOCUSED ON, OR IS IT JESUS CHRIST, AND HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS!

THIS IS A VERY VAIN, VAIN, VAIN, VAIN, VEXATION OF THE SPIRIT THREAD. I AM GRIEVING IN THE HOLY GHOST EVEN THINKING ABOUT THIS THREAD.

How can any of you, professing to love Jesus Christ, debate such a thing. Both put Jesus Christ on the cross?[/quote]


Why so harsh? Just weeks ago did you not argue that masturbation was not sinful? Now you question the faith of another.

"Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." -Jesus Christ

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1242297' date='Apr 13 2007, 11:36 PM']I'm going to High Jack this thread, because I want to drill this into people.

Both murdered Jesus Christ, because he went to the cross to redeem all man kind!

Who cares about vain philosophies - which is better, and which is worse. Both put Jesus Christ on the CROSS! IS IT THE SIN YOU ARE FOCUSED ON, OR IS IT JESUS CHRIST, AND HIS DEATH ON THE CROSS!

THIS IS A VERY VAIN, VAIN, VAIN, VAIN, VEXATION OF THE SPIRIT THREAD. I AM GRIEVING IN THE HOLY GHOST EVEN THINKING ABOUT THIS THREAD.

How can any of you, professing to love Jesus Christ, debate such a thing. Both put Jesus Christ on the cross?[/quote]
You are correct, they are both grave sins. My involvement in the thread is mostly out of boredom/procrastination and my attraction to speculative things.

[ttomm46]

So Is Fulltruth saying all sins are the same?

[KnightofChrist]

Adultery is fornication, both masturbation and "fornication" are adultery. One has an partner, the other does not have a physical partner but a mental one. They are the same sin, only in one form the person is alone in his/her sin, the other form they are not.

Edited April 14, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[FullTruth]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1242331' date='Apr 14 2007, 12:48 AM']Why so harsh? Just weeks ago did you not argue that masturbation was not sinful? Now you question the faith of another.

"Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." -Jesus Christ[/quote]
Knight of Christ, the smote has been taken out of my eye, and I see more clearly in this realm now.

I did a 7-day purification right, and a 1 day fast, as described in the book of Leviticus, and God took it entirely away from me. That's where the zeal came from. When you put away sin with great wrath, by being totally submitted to God in that area, Zeal always happens.

[quote name='2 Corinthians 7:10-12' date=' KJV'][b]For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of[/b]: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

[b]For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort[/b], what [b]carefulness it wrought in you[/b], yea, what [b]clearing of yourselves[/b], yea, what [b]indignation[/b], yea, what fear, yea, what [b]vehement desire[/b], yea, what [b]zeal[/b], yea, what [b]revenge[/b]! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Wherefore, though I wrote unto you, I did it not for his cause that had done the wrong, nor for his cause that suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear unto you.[/quote]

Lets break this down. Repentance brings carefulness - and I am very careful about old things now. It clears yourself - and I haven't had the desire for 12 days now.

[url="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/indignation"]Indignation - Anger aroused by something unjust, mean, or unworthy[/url]

[url="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/vehement"]Vehement - marked by forceful energy[/url]

[url="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/Zeal"]Zeal - eagerness and ardent interest in pursuit of something[/url]

[url="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/revenge"]Revenge - to avenge (as oneself) usually by retaliating in kind or degree[/url]

So don't go, hey wait a minute. He's a Hypocrit. Don't make that assumption. Be an optimist, God could have changed my heart concerning this, and now you get to reveal in my revenge against an old sin!

Edited April 14, 2007 by FullTruth

[FullTruth]

[quote name='ttomm46' post='1242347' date='Apr 14 2007, 12:55 AM']So Is Fulltruth saying all sins are the same?[/quote]
I'm only going with what the spirit taught me. All sins put Jesus Christ on the Cross, and he died for all sins. So each sin is equal, because Jesus died on the cross for it.

Don't focus on the letter (Law - commandments), focus on the spirit of the law. Jesus Christ died for all sins, so that should be our cry. Masturbation/Fornication - its all the same, because it all lead to the saviour's death. So why focus on the sins, when we can focus on the one who died for our sins?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Here is some relevant scripture. From the [url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/index.htm"]New American Bible[/url]:

"All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly."
[url="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/1john/1john5.htm"]1 John 5:17[/url]

Verse 16 (the previous verse) seems to be saying there is a difference in how to handle the two types when you find a brother comitting one or the other. God bless!

Edited April 14, 2007 by thedude

[ttomm46]

Thanks Dude

Or these:
I Jn 5:16-18

16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.

17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. 18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.



Heb 9:14

14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (NIV)



Heb 6:1-2

1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,

Edited April 14, 2007 by ttomm46

[dUSt]

Not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign is breaking the law, therefore a sin, but isn't as bad as murdering someone. There are different levels of sin. This is Biblical and what the church teaches us.