Eucharist's Origins

[aalpha1989]

Today in Sacraments our book claimed that our Eucharistic liturgy today developed from early Christian 'love feasts' in which every family/person would bring food and everyone shared it and celebrated 'fellowship'. I asked my teacher just to make sure that was really what he was trying to teach us....then I told him I disagreed. I told him that I believed that the Eucharist had always been seperate from pot lucks and I know that they did have 'love feasts' from Paul's letters, but didn't he tell them to amke sure they were seperate celebrations? Paul is pretty early, and i'm pretty sure he only wrote it in one epistle. Sorry, can't remember verse or book even, just a vague memory . If anyone can help me out on that...

but anyway if that's the case i would assume that one community had an issue with mixing up Eucharistic celebrations and 'love feasts' and that paul corrected them on that......this issue is far less widespread than the book makes it look. the book says that EVERYONE celebrated it that way, that EVERYONE did the early 'mass' that way. Anyway the question for the poll is this;
was i right to discuss this with the teacher in front of the whole class?

if i'm incorrect on my information than that would be a 'no' vote...thanks a lot!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Sounds like someone has a skewed idea of what the early Eucharist was. It was a love feast, although an agape-love feast. Agape is the Greek word for the sacrificial love of Christ. A potluck isn't terribly sacrificial and certainly not worth being martyred over. Now it is possible that in the Early Church, the faithful brought bread and wine themselves for the priest to use (I don't know one way or the other), but the potluck theory is definitely off.

I recommend this: [url="http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Manna-Theology-Eucharist/dp/1586170767/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-4935116-6619924?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176501307&sr=8-1"]http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Manna-Theolog...1307&sr=8-1[/url]

It's a little lofty in the theology (I really only skimmed it, lest I get bogged down), but it's a good description of the development of Church teaching on the Eucharist.

God bless,

Micah

[thessalonian]

There was no HELL YAH! So I did the best I could. In the Catechism there is a quote from Justin Martyr that speaks about the Eucharist celebration. I have posted it below for your convenience. It sure sounds like a love feast but not the one your friend has in mind. It is the Mass. This was in the second century. Now if you friend is right that type of celebration didn't last long and has not the legs of tradition under it.

1345 As early as the second century we have the witness of St. Justin Martyr for the basic lines of the order of the Eucharistic celebration. They have stayed the same until our own day for all the great liturgical families. St. Justin wrote to the pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161) around the year 155, explaining what Christians did:

On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.
The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.

When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.

Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.

When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.

Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.

He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.

When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: 'Amen.'

When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the "eucharisted" bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.

[Era Might]

St. Paul specifically chastises them for treating the Holy Eucharist as a meal:

[quote]So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another -- if any one is hungry, let him eat at home -- lest you come together to be condemned.

--1Corinthians 11:20-22[/quote]I don't know the history of agape feasts. They may have had meals when they had the Eucharist, because they were coming out of the Passover tradition and that was the context of the institution of the Holy Eucharist, but I'm not sure. Anyway, St. Paul makes clear that the Lord's Supper is not just a common meal. He even tells them to eat at home if they are hungry, because the rite of the Eucharist is not about filling your belly. The Eucharist is the sacrifice of the New Covenant. It is the fulfillment of the sacrifice of Melchizidek, who offered a sacrifice of bread and wine. St. Paul says that Christ is a Priest according to the order of Melchizidek, which is why he told the Apostles to repeat his actions with the bread and wine which would become his body and blood.

[quote]For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."

In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."

For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.

--1Corinthians 11:23-29[/quote]

[aalpha1989]

double post

now should i present my teacher with this information (the st. paul quote was the one i was thinking of....) or just let it go? i would do it outside of class....he knows me pretty well, says he likes the guy that stands against the crowd 'even if that guy is dead wrong'. he's a lover of the jesuits, and mocked fus today (i was wearing a fus sweatshirt...)...so anyway we have discussions and i know i could bring it to him...should i?

[mod]Sorry, I accidentally deleted the other post, and all I had saved to my clipboard was this portion.[/mod]

Edited April 14, 2007 by Era Might

[Era Might]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1242070' date='Apr 13 2007, 08:00 PM']now should i present my teacher with this information (the st. paul quote was the one i was thinking of....) or just let it go? i would do it outside of class....he knows me pretty well, says he likes the guy that stands against the crowd 'even if that guy is dead wrong'. he's a lover of the jesuits, and mocked fus today (i was wearing a fus sweatshirt......so anyway we have discussions and i know i could bring it to him...should i?[/quote]
Is he Catholic? Maybe you should show him some of the clear teachings of the Church about the Eucharist, such as at Trent. Pope Paul VI also has an important document called "Mysterium Fidei" on the Holy Eucharist:

[quote]Just as Moses made the Old Testament sacred with the blood of calves, so too Christ the Lord took the New Testament, of which He is the Mediator, and made it sacred through His own blood, in instituting the mystery of the Eucharist. For, as the Evangelists narrate, at the Last Supper "he took bread, and blessed and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, This is my body, given for you; do this for a commemoration of me. And so with the cup, when supper was ended, This cup, he said, is the new testament, in my Blood which is to be shed for you." And by bidding the Apostles to do this in memory of Him, He made clear that He wanted it to be forever repeated. This intention of Christ was faithfully carried out by the primitive Church through her adherence to the teaching of the Apostles and through her gatherings to celebrate the Eucharistic Sacrifice. As St. Luke is careful to point out, "They occupied themselves continually with the Apostles' teaching, their fellowship in the breaking of bread, and the fixed times of prayer." The faithful used to derive such spiritual fervor from this practice that it was said of them that "there was one heart and soul in all the company of the believers."[/quote]

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1242683' date='Apr 14 2007, 09:54 AM']Is he Catholic? Maybe you should show him some of the clear teachings of the Church about the Eucharist, such as at Trent. Pope Paul VI also has an important document called "Mysterium Fidei" on the Holy Eucharist:[/quote]


yeah he's catholic....he's our sacraments teacher. he doesn't dispute that the Eucharist IS Jesus, he just says that it started with everyone bringing food, basically like a potluck...

i think the other part of my post i was just thanking you guys for answring. that paul passage was what i was looking for, and i'll check out the other stuff too.

[N/A Gone]

[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20040528_lineamenta-xi-assembly_en.html"]http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/do...ssembly_en.html[/url]

[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5985"]http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5985[/url]

[url="http://ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1.asp?rafile=iq_3487.ra&source=frmselectseries.asp&seriesID=&T1=eucharist"]http://ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1.asp...mp;T1=eucharist[/url]

[url="http://ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1.asp?rafile=iq_838.ra&source=frmselectseries.asp&seriesID=&T1=eucharist"]http://ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/dload1.asp...mp;T1=eucharist[/url]

[url="http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/eucharist.html"]http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/eucharist.html[/url]

[url="http://ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SHEEDEUC.HTM"]http://ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SHEEDEUC.HTM[/url]

"God is near us" by Cardinal Ratzinger is awesome.

Patristically?

Part 3 of "Crossing the Tiber" is awesome for this.

The best part?

Read this one..

[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html[/url]

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Well...

At one point (very early on)... as Raph mentioned, there was an "agape meal" celebrated by the early Christians. But the agape feast was later on in the evening, while the readings and "homily" took up most of the rest of the day starting in the morning.

Paul's letter to the Corinthians talks of this (cf. 1 Cor 11:17-33)-- and Paul admonishes them for not sharing with the poor among the community, and then again for not taking the memorial/sacrificial part of the meal seriously. This may have been the reason the early Church joined together the reading of Scriptures and the Eucharist... to emphasize the sacrificial character more clearly that all might take seriously the Body and Blood of the Lord.

Oh, I wanted to add... Blessed Adrian Fortescue talks of this in his book [u]The Mass: A Study of the Roman Liturgy[/u], and it's also mentioned in the anthology edited by Cheslyn Jones, [u]The Study of the Liturgy[/u].

Edited April 15, 2007 by Fides_et_Ratio

[Ziggamafu]

As I understand it, early mass gatherings had an extremely basic liturgical procedure of readings (a bigger part of liturgical celebration took place in continued visits to Jewish temples for awhile). Then there was a love feast, which was basically a potluck breakfast and social gathering (like our fish fry fridays, I suppose). Then they would take a break / "intermission" of some sort and re-gather for a basic liturigical breaking of bread; the eucharist. The structure of the mass was basically the same as today (lit. of Word, lit. of Eucharist) but nowhere near as complex and between liturgies there was a big meal.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1245505' date='Apr 16 2007, 06:32 AM']As I understand it, early mass gatherings had an extremely basic liturgical procedure of readings (a bigger part of liturgical celebration took place in continued visits to Jewish temples for awhile). Then there was a love feast, which was basically a potluck breakfast and social gathering (like our fish fry fridays, I suppose). Then they would take a break / "intermission" of some sort and re-gather for a basic liturigical breaking of bread; the eucharist. The structure of the mass was basically the same as today (lit. of Word, lit. of Eucharist) but nowhere near as complex and between liturgies there was a big meal.[/quote]


so the potluck thing is true of the universal church in the early days? what about all the era might stuff?