Something To Think About...

[cathoholic_anonymous]

The prominent Jewish convert to Catholicism, Rosalind Moss, describes Catholic churches as 'synagogues with Christ'. She is right. Jesus said, "I came not to abolish the law, but to fulfil it," and in the beauty of the Catholic liturgy you can see that fulfilment. A lot of fundamentalist Christians cling to the mistaken notion that it is somehow dangerous and wrong to adhere to a pattern in worship, which is blatantly false. Even fundamentalist and Evangelical churches adhere to a prescribed liturgy of sorts. I know this because I have prayed with friends in their non-denominational and Evangelical places of worship. One girl once asked me pityingly if I felt 'trapped' by the set prayers of Catholic prayer books - apparently not realising that the so-called 'spontaneous prayer' that is used at her service is much more repetitive than anything used at the Mass. "We really want to, uh, just come before you, Lord, and we really, err, trust you, yes, Lord Jesus, we want your Spirit, we're here to praise your holy name, we come before you Lord, and we, err, lift everything up..."

This prayer is repeated time and time again, to the accompaniment of many arms being raised into the air in unison. I don't want to disparage people's dialogue with God. I do believe that the prayer of my evangelical friends has real meaning and sincerity. What I [i]do[/i] want to point out is that all Christians create rituals and formulaic prayers for themselves, often without realising it. This is because human beings respond well to the rhythm of liturgy. It is a very good, strong framework for prayer - which makes a lot of sense, when you consider the way our brains work. The problem I have with many evangelical Protestant services is the mistaken impression that you must always be doing something new for God, putting on a show for Him, proving that you are playing the game properly. It's not enough to quietly recite the Glory Be over and over again, complete with the customary bows, as you ponder the blissful depths of the Trinity. You have to stage a concert for God, otherwise you may get accused of not praying 'in the Spirit'. The focus is too often on the act of praying rather than on prayer itself. If you are wrapped up in pure prayer, you won't notice what the person in the pew in front of you is doing.

[quote]I believe Catholics is very Judasized. Judaizers demanded circumcision for salvation--galations 5:2, the same way that Catholics now demand sacraments for salvation.[/quote]

Sacrament literally means 'sign of grace'. They are not tokens that you collect to buy a place in Heaven. They are beautiful gifts that enrich our lives, the grace and peace of Jesus Christ manifested amongst us in a tangible way. Catholics do not 'demand' sacraments for salvation in the same way that you might demand proof of purchase at a shop. We are just grateful to receive presents from Heaven.

Edited April 14, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1243143' date='Apr 14 2007, 04:46 PM']Judaizers are those who wanted to impose physical rituals of the Law on Christians or set up a particularly Jewish version of Christianity.

I believe Catholics is very Judasized. Judaizers demanded circumcision for salvation--galations 5:2, the same way that Catholics now demand sacraments for salvation.

A poster posted this on my board:
I suggest you read the book of Galatians to understand this.

IN fact the book of Galatians whjich I read while still in the Catholic Church is another thing that woke me up![/quote]
I've read the Book of Galatians, Budge. I only see Catholicism in it.

We don't believe in works-based salvation. I'm writing my thesis write now and just finished the part on Catholic justification theology.

Oh, and the Bible demands sacraments for salvation (Acts 2:38).

[Budge]

[quote]he prominent Jewish convert to Catholicism, Rosalind Moss, describes Catholic churches as 'synagogues with Christ'.[/quote]This is not a good thing, because there aer Christians who warn and are right that the Catholic Church is the contiuation of the Judaism temple system, when jesus was supposed to be the ultimate fulfilment meaning no rituals, rites and other sacrifices.

There are also warnings in scripture about the "synagogue of Satan" and those who 'say they are Jews but are not"

So be careful there CA, you are actually making things worse.

There is a difference in pattern in worship, Ie, I pray every night, as opposed to rituals that are taught as being "necessary for salvation"--thts right from the Catholic CC, or as "channels" of God's grace.
[quote]
Catholics do not 'demand' sacraments for salvation in the same way that you might demand proof of purchase at a shop[/quote].


[b]The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. "[/b]

[cmotherofpirl]

Yep, Baptism is necessary for salvation. If you commit sin after baptism you are bound to confess them. Jesus himself gave the Come to take and eat, and do THIS in remembrance of me.

Pretty much orders from the Boss Himself

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]This is not a good thing, because there aer Christians who warn and are right that the Catholic Church is the contiuation of the Judaism temple system, when jesus was supposed to be the ultimate fulfilment meaning no rituals, rites and other sacrifices.[/quote]You have just taken Ms Moss's description out of context and discarded the rest of my paragraph for your own purposes. Read the rest of it, and write a reply to that - if you can.

As for 'no rituals'...Jesus commanded us to celebrate the Eucharist 'in remembrance of Me'. Like it or not, that is a ritual, in the same way that raising your arms in the air at a non-denom service to the accompaniment of the same repeated supplications is a ritual. I know which one I would rather celebrate.

[quote]There are also warnings in scripture about the "synagogue of Satan" and those who 'say they are Jews but are not"[/quote]

Catholics do not claim to be Jewish. Instead, we believe that Catholicism is Judaism fulfilled. The evangelical Protestant view of Judaism seems to be of a religion that has outlived its usefulness and can now be razed to the ground while we all go off and reinvent the wheel. The Catholic view of Judaism is of a bare tree that came to fruition in Christ.

The reference to 'the synagogue of Satan' comes in Revelation and refers specifically to hypocrites in the church at Smyrna, who claimed to be Jews but weren't. This is extremely obvious if you read the passage in question. Was that why you didn't cite chapter and verse references? You have taken Scripture out of context in the same way that you dislocated one of my sentences from its setting.

[quote]So be careful there CA, you are actually making things worse.[/quote]Only if my readers insist on seeing what they want to see and ignoring the rest.

[quote]There is a difference in pattern in worship, Ie, I pray every night, as opposed to rituals that are taught as being "necessary for salvation"--thts right from the Catholic CC, or as "channels" of God's grace.[/quote]

I repeat again: "Catholics do not 'demand' sacraments for salvation in the same way that you might demand proof of purchase at a shop." God sends us gifts in the form of His sacraments and we accept them joyfully. You see them in very legalistic terms - a betrayal of your contractarian view of salvation. We see them as part of a covenant rather than as clauses in a contract. A covenant is a loving exchange of persons, such as we see in marriage; a contract is a business deal in which you do specific things to earn a specific result. The Eucharist, Reconciliation, anointing, marriage, holy orders, baptism, even Last Rites - they are all an exchange of persons rather than an exchange of a particular currency. And this is why they are life-giving. This is the way God has chosen to come to us. It is not your place to criticise His ways of giving.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1241810' date='Apr 13 2007, 03:05 PM']"False apostles," of course, implies the opposite, i.e. true apostles. And BTW, the text you cite was written by St. Paul, [i]who wasn't even one of the original twelve.[/i] Shall we consider him a "false apostle?"

Please, answer the question: without authoritative preaching and teaching, what makes Budgianity any "truer" than the Branch Davidians?[/quote]

Please, answer the question, Budge: what makes Budgianity any "truer" than the Branch Davidians? What makes your Magisterium "truer" than the Catholic Magisterium?

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1241489' date='Apr 13 2007, 12:41 PM']Every man / woman for him / her self then? How can there even [i]be[/i] a Church if there is no one with preaching and teaching authority subsequent to the "original" Apostles? Your view reminds me of the US Army advertising campaign, an "Army of One." In your case, it's a "Church of One." Without an authoritative preaching and teaching authority, it's anyone's best guess, and your opinion is as good as mine or David Koresh's.[/quote]

Maybe this is what Budge believes Jesus means when He prays: "I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father"

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1244240' date='Apr 15 2007, 10:14 AM'][b]The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation. "[/b][/quote]

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." -John 3:5, KJV

Notice Jesus says that not only the Spirit, but also water, are necessary.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

The Eucharist, too.

"Jesus said to them, 'I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me." John 6:53-57.

[Akalyte]

The Seven Sacraments are Biblical and are needed:




1. Baptism = is the initiation of a person into Christianity
* Forgiveness of sins & reception of the Holy Spirit (Ezekiel 36:25-27 ("All scripture…": 2 Tim 3:16), Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16)
* Baptized into one body (1 Corinthians 12:13, Galatians 3:27, Colossians 2:11-12)
* Baptism necessary for salvation (1 Peter 3:20-21, John 3:5 (also note verse 22)
* Instituted by Christ (Matthew 28:19)

2. Reconciliation (also known as Confession) = The means by which God forgives sins after baptism
*

Confess your sins to men (Leviticus 5:5-6 ("All scripture…": 2 Tim 3:16), (Law is a shadow: Hebrews 10:1), 1 John 1:9, James 5:16)
*

Can men forgive sins? Only God has the power to forgive sins but He exercises this power through men. (Mark 2:7, Matthew 9:1-8)
*

Instituted by Christ (John 20:21-23)
3.

Eucharist = Communion is an intimate encounter with Christ, in which we sacramentally receive Christ into our bodies
*

A perfect offering shall be made (Malachi 1:11 ("All scripture…": 2 Tim 3:16)
*

Flesh & Blood (John 6, Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24,Luke 22:19-20, 1 Cor 11:23-26, 27-29)
*

Many disciples leave (John 6:66, Usually Jesus explains parables to avoid confusion as in: Matthew 13; 15:15; 17:10-19; & chapter 19)
*

Instituted by Christ (Luke 22:19)
4.

Confirmation = is a sacrament of initiation into the Christian life by confirming your faith
*

Laying of the hands (Acts 8:14–17, 9:17, 19:6)
*

Christianity's basic teachings (Hebrews 6:2)
*

Instituted by Christ (John 3:5)
5.

Matrimony = is the union between a man and a woman as a whole with God's blessings
*

As a constitution between a man and a woman (Luke 16:18; cf. Mark 10:11–12, Rom 7:2-3)
*

Instituted by Christ (1 Cor. 7:10-11)
6.

Holy Orders = is the sacrament by which a person decides to dedicate their entire lifes to serve the Lord
*

Bishops (1 Tim. 5:19–22; 2 Tim. 4:5; Titus 1:5)
*

Priests (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15)
*

Deacons (Acts 6:1–6)
*

Instituted by Christ (2 Tim. 2:2)
7.

Anointing of the Sick = is administered to bring spiritual and even physical strength during an illness, especially near the time of death
*

Strength from the Holy Spirit (Matt. 8:17)
*

Healing powers (Mark 6:13)
*

Forgiveness of sin (Jas. 5:14–15)
*

Instituted by Christ (Mark 6:13; Jas. 5:14-15)

Edited April 16, 2007 by Akalyte

[Akalyte]

Here are some more scriptural goodies:


Isa. 35:8, 54:13-17 - this prophecy refers to the Church as the Holy Way where sons will be taught by God and they will not err. The Church has been given the gift of infallibility when teaching about faith and morals, where her sons are taught directly by God and will not err. This gift of infallibility means that the Church is prevented from teaching error by the power of the Holy Spirit (it does not mean that Church leaders do not sin!)

Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 - the early Church is identified as the "Way" prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where geniuses will not err therein.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.

Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift.

Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Edited April 16, 2007 by Akalyte

[Winchester]

BUMP.

[Budge]

Thanks for bumping up my topics Winchester.

You know I was looking for a couple that are older, there was one on the Dalai Lama, can you go find it for me and bump it up?

[Budge]

Thanks for bumping up my topics Winchester.

You know I was looking for a couple that are older, there was one on the Dalai Lama, can you go find it for me and bump it up?

[Winchester]

Sincere, not intentionally condescending or insulting:

I only wanted to go two pages; I'm not your butler. I think you're spreading yourself too thin and not really advancing your arguments. Certainly your arguments are worthy of debate--they're not new, but they are unique and driven by what I choose to believe is an authentic passion for truth. Of course, as a Catholic (not a particularly good or faithful Catholic, mind you, but an informed one) I believe the debate if pursued properly will strengthen our resolve in the Catholic faith.

I believe heavily in God's Forgiveness and His Understanding. I don't think mere human defenciencies condemn us. He sees into our hearts, as it were, and knows what we intend apart from our foibles. I'm going somewhere with this, trust me (and it's not all humans go to Heaven; that's not Biblical in the least.)

The upshot: You are quite convinced in your beliefs and you're stubborn. I don't see you changing, nor do I see myself changing. Some have advanced the hypothesis that you're here to bring you back into the Church; I think perhaps you are here to keep us in the Church. Or maybe both; God's a good multitasker so we could probably say both and be safe.

I'll be returning to my usual self, now.