Something To Think About...

[Budge]

[quote]It's called "Apostolic Succession" and its perfectly Biblical.[/quote]

Yeah, the Bible warns of it.

[b]2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
[/b]

What other worldwide church [its not the Mormons] have transformed themselves into the apostles of Christ?

[Guest T-Bone]

The First Church of Budge?

[Budge]

[quote]wonder if Budge is secretly Dust trying to keep our apologetics up[/quote]

Arent the Fuzzy Wuzzy Bunnies out of practice?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1241732' date='Apr 13 2007, 02:35 PM']Yeah, the Bible warns of it.

[b]2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
[/b]

What other worldwide church [its not the Mormons] have transformed themselves into the apostles of Christ?[/quote]
Budge, when did our bishops transform themselves into Christ? They received authority from those who held it before, all the way back to the apostles. This is what the Scriptures indicate was supposed to happen. When did any man claim to be an apostle and was acknowledged by the Church as an apostle without actually receiving the authority of an apostle? None. However, since the Catholic Church hands on authority as God commanded, you have nothing to attack.

God bless,

Micah

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1241732' date='Apr 13 2007, 02:35 PM']Yeah, the Bible warns of it.

[b]2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
[/b]

What other worldwide church [its not the Mormons] have transformed themselves into the apostles of Christ?[/quote]

"False apostles," of course, implies the opposite, i.e. true apostles. And BTW, the text you cite was written by St. Paul, [i]who wasn't even one of the original twelve.[/i] Shall we consider him a "false apostle?"

Please, answer the question: without authoritative preaching and teaching, what makes Budgianity any "truer" than the Branch Davidians?

[CatholicCid]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1241705' date='Apr 13 2007, 01:58 PM']I don't think it will. [/quote]

Then I suppose that means Budge accepts it as true

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

I find it amusing that Budge condemns the authority of the Bishops and yet claims this same authority for herself.

The Magesterium doesn't bare the authority to interpret Scripture; I do.
The Pope isn't infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit; I am.

What's the difference between Budge and the Pope/Magesterium?

[quote]And how shall they preach [b]unless they be sent[/b], as it is written: How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, of them that bring glad tidings of good things! (Romans 10:15)[/quote]

She wasn't sent.

[Starets]

[quote name='Budge' post='1241732' date='Apr 13 2007, 04:35 PM']Yeah, the Bible warns of it.

[b]2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
[/b]

What other worldwide church [its not the Mormons] have transformed themselves into the apostles of Christ?[/quote]

Apples and Oranges, Budge. For the third time today.

The Bible does no such thing. On the contrary it shows Apostolic Succession in practice in the Early Church. See, for example Acts 1:15-26:

15In those days Peter stood up among the believers[a] (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."

18(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

20"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms,
" 'May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,'[b] and,
" 'May another take his place of leadership.'[c] 21Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."

23So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Here you have St. Peter leading a group of 120 believers, and giving some scriptural warrant for replacing Judas. Not only that, the community prays for divine guidance in choosing a successor. Not only that a successor was chosen. And that is not the only scriptural passage that bears witness to the biblical doctrine of apostolic succession. It simply is the one that shows it in practice.


Other passages that allude to apostolic succession or apostolic authority include the following:
1 Thessalonians 2:6-7. Here we find two other man being called "Apostles", Timothy and Sylvanus, who were ordained as Bishops and were considered to have apostolic authority.
And that's not all. Here are more verses that allude to the practice:
Acts 14:23; 20:28.
1 Corinthians 12: 27-29
Ephesians 4:11; 2:20
1 Thessalonians 1:1-2:12
1 Timothy 3:1-8; 4:13-14; 5:17-22
2 Timothy 2: 1-2
This pattern of passing down the office and teaching authority was followed in the post-Apostolic age as well. the following webpages provide further evidence for that. Not only that, they provide historical evidence that "apostolic succession" was one of the ways the early church used to determine who "was sent" and who "was not sent".
[url="http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/apostol.htm"]Apostolic Succession[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/apostolic_succession.asp"]Apostolic Succession[/url]

[Winchester]

[quote name='Budge' post='1241340' date='Apr 13 2007, 09:26 AM']Hey I was talking about the Magisterium here too, a council is part of the Magisterium is it not?

All men claiming power for THEMSELVES, with no accountability, measuring themselves by themselves.[/quote]
You didn't quote the passage about them having no accountability. This is hurting your presentation.

[carrdero]

[quote name='Budge' post='1241732' date='Apr 13 2007, 03:35 PM']Yeah, the Bible warns of it.

[b]2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
[/b]

What other worldwide church [its not the Mormons] have transformed themselves into the apostles of Christ?[/quote]
Actually their presidents, apostles and elders claim that they are infallible too. It's all very confusing.

[Winchester]

If God cannot protect men from teaching error, then the Bible cannot be completely free of theological error, for it was written by men. By extension, one could not claim the ability to interpret the now admittedly flawed Bible correctly because man, being incapable of infallibility regardless of God's grace, would at some point err or at least be subject to error. If one says the Holy Spirit extends protection against this, then one admits to God's grace being able to protect one from error and thus admits to the possibility of infallibility.

If the Bible is free of error, then God can indeed protect men from teaching theological error and therefore, one must disprove in particular the Catholic explanation of infallibility. One cannot hold to the perfection of the Bible and at the same time ridicule the very notion of infallibility.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1241340' date='Apr 13 2007, 08:26 AM']Hey I was talking about the Magisterium here too, a council is part of the Magisterium is it not?

All men claiming power for THEMSELVES, with no accountability, measuring themselves by themselves.[/quote]
Okay, so councils are evil, and they impose on the faithful? Would you have said that to St. James if you were a Judaizer in the Church at Jerusalem in the first century? They held a council and determined that the Judaizers were wrong. What would you say to that council?

[Budge]

That meeting was biblical, Romes councils are not.

speaking of Judasizers that apostles were trying to head off errors that are now in your church.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1243108' date='Apr 14 2007, 04:08 PM']That meeting was biblical, Romes councils are not.

speaking of Judasizers that apostles were trying to head off errors that are now in your church.[/quote]
Just because we don't put them in the Bible doesn't mean they aren't valid, Budge. The point is that the Scriptures indicate that the bishops have the power to come together and hold councils.

As for the Judaizers' errors, which of them do we hold to?

[Budge]

Judaizers are those who wanted to impose physical rituals of the Law on Christians or set up a particularly Jewish version of Christianity.

I believe Catholics is very Judasized. Judaizers demanded circumcision for salvation--galations 5:2, the same way that Catholics now demand sacraments for salvation.

A poster posted this on my board:
[quote]
the understanding that "fall from grace" was intrinsically wrapped around the re-Judaism of the "free grace" gospel and was being introduced by the Judaizers.

In actuality they WON, and although Paul marveled at how FAST they fell back into mans efforts to be worthy, over time, they grew into the Greek Orthodox church and that in turn, became the Roman Catholic church.

MOST of the "Christians" in the world today, are those who Paul was condemning of in Galatians.
[b]More than 60% of the believers today are in works based systems that THINK they are honoring Paul and his gospel, but in truth, are nothing more than modern, reconstructed Judaizers incarnate[/b].[/quote]

I suggest you read the book of Galatians to understand this.

IN fact the book of Galatians whjich I read while still in the Catholic Church is another thing that woke me up!