Amway, Scam Or Great Investment?

[RezaMikhaeil]

What's your thoughts on this? Was Amway a great investment or was it a scam?

[Guest T-Bone]

And a cult to boot!

[Guest T-Bone]

And a cult to boot!

[RezaMikhaeil]

Could you explain further?

[Guest T-Bone]

[url="http://www.cocs.com/jhoagland/amcult.html"]Is Amway a Cult?[/url]

[Budge]

Havent you all figured out the Amway scene by now?

[Guest T-Bone]

Your point?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Budge' post='1240528' date='Apr 12 2007, 07:01 PM']Havent you all figured out the Amway scene by now?

[/quote]

There was another post [in the movie section] that suggest we start this thread and he didn't believe that Amway was a scam, so I began this thread and thought that maybe more agreed with that particular poster.

[Groo the Wanderer]

Methinks Amway should merge with that other scam cult that Tom Cruise belongs to....it would at least add to their product line

[dUSt]

I don't think it's a scam. My parents had an Amway business for about 5 years, eventually ended up giving up--but had moderate success.

Like any business or money making scheme, you get what you put into it. If you are good and know how to succeed, you can succeed in Amway. If you get a job at McDonalds, and are good enough, you can end up owning a chain of 'em. It's all about you.

I think Amway is better for people who are extremely personable, good salesmen, persuasive and have a ton of energy.

If you don't fit ALL the above criteria, I wouldn't really even try.

It is kinda cult-like, in that a bunch of money is made off of "motivational" tapes, but honestly, the tapes are very motivational and would probably do you a lot of good no matter what you were trying to accomplish. haha

[zdog042]

I know that everybody who already has made up their mind will not be swayed by this, but my wife and I am an involved in a Quixtar/Amway business and have been so for 3 years.

I agree with dUSt, the motivational tapes have helped me a lot through many places in my life, and have even applied to my theological life. Some are pure motivation, but others are training for life, finances, committment, time management, money management, etc. Additionaly, the conferences, where they touch on a lot of the same topics, are priced at about $120 for a weekend + hotel and food, which is about the same for a lot of other conferences, and a lot cheaper than any other professional conference that I have seen.

As far as being a cult, I can't say that I have seen cult type activity. In my line of sponsorship, I have been encouraged to think for myself, come up with ideas and plans, and do as I wish for my business. All of my uplines have been available for counsel, but this is more of a mentorship model than a cult model. They will help, but are very careful not to push you farther than what you ask for.

Also, the meetings I have attended have been more school-type than cult-type. Lots of note taking, not a ton of emotion grabbing. I have learned a lot, and have taken many notes. Yes, there is singing at the big regional gatherings, but anybody who has been to a managerial level meeting for any corporation knows that each company has their own song. My manager at Dominos used to complain about the Dominos song, and every walmart is supposed to start off each shift with their employees singing the walmart song. My wife is very glad that her store doesn't make them do that.

Also, I can not say it is a scam. 1st, the products are priced competatively. I spent a long time pricing items, and some are more expensive and some are less expensive. It really differs on the product, much like any other store. 2nd, I can't say that I have ripped my Grandpa off when he bought vitamins and they helped his joints out. He has heart trouble, is overweight, and on oxygen and several meds. But when he took the vitamins I talked to him about, it helped his joint pain tremendously. I didn't force him to buy, he bought, and I made a bit of money.

Again, that isn't a scam. Family members own businesses all the time and make a profit off of their family and friends. I offer a discount to my family, and frequently price my goods to them down to at-cost. So, I don't think I am scamming them, and they enjoy the products even if they pay full price. They are happy and I make some money.

The ability it has given me to connect with people of all ages and stages of life, to make money while helping others through products and counseling, has really made it worthwhile to me. The only way I can see it being a scam is if a person scammed you. And, that happens everywhere. I've had co-workers and managers investigated for fraud, so because one person did it doesn't make the system a scam, just makes that person a scammer.

As far as people making money from CDs and books, I figure, why not? John Maxwell and Robert Kiyosaki make money from their motivational and training stuff, so why not people that I enjoy listening to? Additionaly, I pay $50/month to have my website hosted and maintained with unlimited bandwith and a full featured shopping service. That is cheap, and along with that I am able to purchase CDs for $2 a piece. My training organization closely monitors the prices, and makes them widely available, so if somebody charges you more, you can get your money back, (or even better) don't buy it at the inflated price. If they want to make a few cents off of a CD that I enjoy listening to, I say more power to them. They aren't making much off of $2 per CD.

So, I can't say it is a scam. Everything I have had told to me, saturation, CD and motivational materials, price gouging, all don't make any sense to me. Maybe in other lines of sponsorship it is a problem, but where I have been, I have only had contact with people who want to help me grow and make some money.

So, if you already made up your mind about Amway/Quixtar being a cult, I probably didn't say anything to change your mind, but I enjoy learning and bettering my life and the lives of others through my business. I have not met anybody who came from my line of sponsorship (including those who quit) who thought that Amway/Quixtar was a scam, it just isn't a problem with my sponsors and training group.

[RezaMikhaeil]

Here's a wikipedia article, not that I think wikipedia is "the only sources that matters" or that I agree with the article but I thought it would be interesting to see people's responses:

[quote]FTC investigation
In the 1979 In re. Amway Corp. (93 F.T.C. 618) ruling,[8]the Federal Trade Commission found that Amway does not qualify as an illegal pyramid scheme since the main aim of the enterprise is the sale of product and money is paid only for business volume, personal and group. It did, however, order Amway to change several business practices and prohibited the company from misrepresenting the amount of profit, earnings or sales its distributors are likely to achieve. Amway was ordered to accompany any such statements with the actual averages per distributor, pointing out that more than half of the distributors do not make any money, with the average distributor making less than $100 per month. The order was violated with a 1986 ad campaign, resulting in a $100,000 fine.[9]

Amway (and its American online incarnation, Quixtar) have been controversial due to allegations that these companies are pyramid schemes or cults, despite the 1979 FTC ruling (93 F.T.C. 618 (1979))[10] that legitimized the Amway business. The case revealed that, as of 1979, most of the products sold by Amway were to the Independent Business Owners (IBOs) themselves for personal consumption rather than to retail consumers who weren't enrolled as IBOs. Buying products or directing clients to buy from Amway or Quixtar gives IBOs points and they are paid back on the number of points that they generate from personal consumption or from client volume. An existing IBO can sponsor others to get an IBO number so that they can help others divert their buying habit from other stores to Amway or Quixtar. Thus, the business grows as a greater number of people join the group. The share of profit is based on the volume that an IBO is responsible for each month, therefore an IBO may actually make more money per month than the IBO who sponsored them into the Business.


Other legal cases
In 1983, Amway pleaded guilty to criminal tax evasion and customs fraud in Canada, resulting in a fine of $25 million CAD, the largest fine ever imposed in that country. The company was fined another $45 million CAD in 1989 to settle a suit brought by Canada's trade office.[11][12][13] In an 1994 interview, Amway co-founder Rich DeVos stated that this incident had been his greatest "moral or spiritual challenge", first in "soul searching as to whether they had done anything wrong" and then for pleading guilty for technical reasons, despite believing they were innocent of the charges. DeVos stated he believed that the case had been motivated by "political reasons".[14]

The Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA), as part of its anti-piracy efforts, sued Amway and several distributors in 1995. The RIAA alleged that copyrighted music was used on "highly profitable" training videotapes.[15] Amway settled the case out of court for $9 million.[16] In a related lawsuit initiated by the distributors involved, the Court established that Mahaleel Lee Luster, who had been contracted to make the videotapes, had violated copyright without the knowledge of three of the five of those distributors.[17]

Amway grew quickly in China starting from 1995. In 1998, after abuses of illegal pyramid schemes led to riots, the Chinese Government enacted a ban on all direct selling companies, including Amway.[18] After negotiations, some companies like Amway, Avon, and Mary Kay continued to operate through a network of retail stores promoted by an independent sales force. Although multi-level payments were still banned, it is alleged that Amway didn't significantly alter its pay scheme, and justified them as payments for services. [19] In 2006 Amway was one of the first companies to receive a license to resume direct sales. At the time they had a reported 180,000 sales representatives, 140 stores, and $2 billion in annual sales.[20] Multi-level marketing (commissions on sales of new sales persons recruited) is still forbidden.

Contraversey:

Several groups including those associated with the anti-cult movement have expressed concern that tactics of AMOs may constitute cult-like activity. Steven Hassan's Freedom of Mind Center lists the practices of AMOs as potentially abusive according to his "BITE" Model of mind control.[39] Other similar organizations that have expressed concern with the activities of AMOs in practice include FACTnet,[40] Cult Awareness and Information Centre (Australia),[41] and others. The Rick Ross Institute keeps a collection of related material in its website.[42]

One controversy that Amway was involved with was an urban legend that the (old) Procter & Gamble service mark is in fact a Satanic symbol or that the CEO of P&G is himself a practicing Satanist (in some variants of the urban legend, it is also claimed that the CEO of Procter & Gamble donated "satanic tithes" to the Church of Satan[43]). Procter & Gamble alleged that several Amway distributors were behind a resurgence of the urban legend in the 1990s and sued several independent Amway distributors and the parent company for defamation and slander. After more than a decade of lawsuits in multiple states, by 2003 all allegations against Amway and Amway distributors had been dismissed, with the trial judge declaring "Throughout this and its related protracted and duplicative litigation, P&G has tried to evade the law of the case doctrine, and has squandered scarce judicial resources".[44][45] However, in October 2005 a Utah appeals court reversed part of the decision dismissing the case against one Amway distributor, Randy Haugen, and remanded it to the earlier court for further proceedings.[46] On 3/20/2007 P&G was awarded $19.5M by a jury. The U.S. District Court jury in Salt Lake City found in favor of the Cincinnati-based consumer products company in a lawsuit filed by P&G in 1995. It was one of several the company brought over rumors alleging a link with the company's logo and Satanism.[47][/quote]

I'm also interested in seeing those that are against Amway, give a more detailed response [mine will come later].

Reza

Edited April 13, 2007 by RezaLemmyng

[N/A Gone]

wikipedia is not a source. The consider Quixtar to be a multi-level when anyone with an economic background or in the business community would not do that.

As a catholic you know the majority of internet cites are worthless and lack in credibility. Instead of citing one of them why dont you deal with my post? My extensive experience with the business model? Every company in the world gets lawsuits. The majority of the ones listed on wikipedia are either based on china or individuals doing dumb stuff. My training group has not been sued and we are not doing anything illegal. Please, read my post and respond to that. Or even Zdog's

You could try actual websites such as

www.thisbiznow.com (what our partners are saying, such as Barnes and noble)
www.prodeji.mychoices.biz (my website)
www.wwdb.com (my training compaines site, put username "guest" and password "dream")
www.internetretailer.com (search for quixtar)
www.emarketer.com
www.hsdent.com (read key concepts section)

[N/A Gone]

oh, one more thing I was thinking of. I put this together as a college student without a credit card and I did not go into debt with it.

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='T-Bone' post='1240460' date='Apr 12 2007, 07:45 PM']And a cult to boot![/quote]

You should really know what you're talking about before you start posting. Or, if you don't and you're relying on sources, make it a credible source. The site that you posted is "Cellar of Comics". Here's some links that matter:

Better Business Bureau - on Quixtar:

[url="http://www.bbbonline.org/cks.asp?id=102102811384627218"]http://www.bbbonline.org/cks.asp?id=102102811384627218[/url]


The legality of Amway was settled in 1979:

[url="http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/cases/mlm/ftc/amway.htm"]http://www.mlmlaw.com/library/cases/mlm/ftc/amway.htm[/url]

I am no lawyer, but I can read what was written there. Part of the problem with siting violations against the Amway is that the franchising company, Amway, cannot force nor closely monitor franchisees. If laws are broken and become known, the franchising organization will terminate their franchising license. The single problem (and one of the greatest advantages) of this business model is the great freedom given to the franchisees. This is why Amway and Quixtar encourage the use of Personal Development Programs, which help ensure that franchisees operate ethically and legally. Again, however, PDPs can emerge very rapidly and do great damage on their own (they are also seperate businesses from Amway and Quixtar). Sticking with a well established PDP with some longevity can help one avoid legal and ethical abuse; still, that is not a guaruntee.

There's a lot of testimony out there from other businesses, such as Microsoft, Barnes and Nobles, NASCAR online, etc. telling how much they've benifited working with Quixtar and, Quixtar's parent company, Alticore. The lawyers at these companies would not allow them to do business with an illegal or unethical company, let alone publicly announce doing business with them. [url="https://www.quixtar.com/Documents/IWOV/VIS/010-EN/PDF/PSSQuotes.pdf"]https://www.quixtar.com/Documents/IWOV/VIS/...F/PSSQuotes.pdf[/url]

There are some people out there who have had bad experiences with Quixtar, Amway and Alticore, and they do the same thing that other people who fail at their jobs. They whine and complain and rail against their previous employer. They don't give a fair or balanced interpretation. Now, there are some people out there who have been genuinely harmed by an unethical franchisee or PDP. Unfortunately, some of these people cannot recognize the difference between individual franchisees and the franchise that they attain their license from.

Here are some other sites that explain better what I've said:

[url="http://www.quixtarfacts.com/"]http://www.quixtarfacts.com/[/url]
[url="http://www.ibofacts.com/"]http://www.ibofacts.com/[/url]