Are Angels Made Of Pure Spirit Or Subtle Matter?

[Resurrexi]

hmmmmmmmmmm

[Proud2BCatholic139]

I say and have faith Angels are pure spirit.

CCC I. The Angels
[b]The existance of angels--a truth of faith[/b]
328 "The existance of the spiritual, non-corporeal beings that Sacred Scripture usually calls "angels" is a truth of faith. The witness of Scripture is as clear as the unanimity of Tradition."

330: As purely [i]spiritual[/i] creatures angels have intelligence and will: they are personal and [b]immortal[/b] creatures, surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, as the speldor of their glory bears witness."

[Guest T-Bone]

What she said.

[Templari]

I put pure spirit, i believe that would fall under what St. Thomas would consider "matter" because they are made of "things" not "nothings" even if the "things" they are made of are purely spiritual.

Then again i could be saying nothing because i don't know what "subtle matter" would be defined as.

[Lounge Daddy]

hmmm... I'll simply be checking back to see the stats on the answers.
great thread.

[Sanvean]

I'm broadly Augustinian in my theology(and, formally, a Neo-Platonist of sorts in my Philosophy).

Very, very briefly, as I understand it, spirit is a substance(as is anything that is "matter" for the "composition" of something in existence), and nothing that exists is without matter. As such, I consider angels to be beings composed of a sort of subtle, incorporeal, matter.

[N/A Gone]

Where would metaphysics come into play? Would you say "purely spiritual"=metaphysical?

I think you need to define terms sir.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Revprodeji

[Sanvean]

I certainly wouldn't presume knowledge of what was intended in the OP.

However, the debate as to the material/immaterial nature of angels dates back to the Middle Ages, and means more or less precisely what it implies. You could rephrase the question as one of the nature of "spiritual." Is spirit matter? If it is not a form of matter, then what is it? Regardless, there really is no authoritative answer; the debate is purely speculative in nature(at least on this side of the veil).

I am, however, curious as to your question regarding the role of metaphysics in this matter. How are [i]you[/i] defining the term?

More properly, I would wonder how, exactly, metaphysics would [i]not[/i] be involved in a question of being, existence and substances; by definition, metaphysics is that branch of study involving First Principles. As such, what exactly do you mean by asking whether or not "purely spiritual" = metaphysical?

[N/A Gone]

Metaphysical, not metaphysics. Meta-physics being the branch of science. Meta-physical being "beyond physical" it is neo-platonic in form. Im sure it is the same as purely spiritual, just a proto/catholic term problem for me.

[Sanvean]

[quote name='Revprodeji' post='1237953' date='Apr 10 2007, 04:46 PM']Metaphysical, not metaphysics. Meta-physics being the branch of science. Meta-physical being "beyond physical" it is neo-platonic in form. Im sure it is the same as purely spiritual, just a proto/catholic term problem for me.[/quote]


I use the term "metaphysical" to describe problems relating to the discipline of metaphysics, as I was always taught.

I appreciate your clarification of terms; most disagreements, I think, could probably be resolved(or at least, simplified) if semantic difficulties could be overcome.

I'm not sure, though, that we can say that "beyond physical" is identical to "purely spiritual." At least, not without determining what it means for something to [b]be [/b] spiritual. Something that is more than physical, after all, is not necessarily not physical at all, just as something that is supernatural is not unnatural.

The term "subtle matter," for example, was actually used by figures like Bl. Duns Scotus, St. Augustine, St. Origen to describe the nature of angels. St. Thomas of Aquinas, conversely, argued that angels were pure Being(which I suspect is what is meant by the term 'purely spiritual'), and that it is impossible for spiritual things to have matter.

[Sanvean]

Oops. Double post.

Edited April 10, 2007 by Sanvean

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Having taken a course on Angelology, pure spirit.

Oh, and Bonaventure has an interesting take on this, but I see you didn't add him to the poll.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1237980' date='Apr 10 2007, 02:29 PM']Having taken a course on Angelology, pure spirit.

Oh, and Bonaventure has an interesting take on this, but I see you didn't add him to the poll.[/quote]

What was St. Bonaventure's opinion?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I'd have to get out my notes, but I do believe he thought angels had a material aspect to them (one of the few things I don't agree with him about).

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1238085' date='Apr 10 2007, 05:31 PM']I'd have to get out my notes, but I do believe he thought angels had a material aspect to them (one of the few things I don't agree with him about).[/quote]

I kinda like the idea that angels have a material aspect (subtle matter) to them... but then again, I prefer St. Thomas' theology in almost everything else.