Accused Of Being A Pagan

[Budge]

There are many good Christians [people I believe are truly saved]out there, who simply do not know the true history behind Easter.

{I have no problem with a Christian celebrating the Resurrection...that should be done every day}

[quote]te:hristians Who Don't Celebrate Easter: What Do They Know?
Easter is the most important holiday for hundreds of millions of believers around the world. Yet thousands of Christians don't observe it. Do they know something that others don't?
by Jerold Aust

Every spring, the anticipation and excitement of Easter is electrifying for many people. Churches prepare elaborate Easter programs that illustrate the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Parents take time to color Easter eggs and hide them so their children can hunt for them.

It's typical for TV movies this time of year to depict Easter as an enjoyable occasion of renewed happiness. Television advertisements and commercial businesses also get very involved with Easter as they offer colorful Easter baskets, Easter costumes and chocolate rabbits to celebrate this great religious event.

Many churches advertise outdoor Easter sunrise services, with any and all invited. Weather permitting, the Easter celebration is visually reinforced by watching the sun rise in the east.

But what do bunnies and colored eggs have to do with Jesus' resurrection?

And if this celebration is so important, why didn't Jesus teach His apostles and the early Church to observe it? The books of the New Testament were written over a span of decades after Jesus Christ's death and resurrection, yet nowhere do we see so much as a hint of any kind of Easter celebration.

So where exactly did Easter and its customs come from? Why do hundreds of millions of people celebrate the holiday today?

Can we find Easter in the Bible?

Easter is considered the most important religious festival in today's Christianity. "The Easter feast has been and still is regarded as the greatest in the Christian church, since it commemorates the most important event in the life of its Founder" (The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, 1986, Vol. 2, "Easter" . Given its popularity, one would think that surely this observance is found in God's Word.

Some cite Acts 12:4 as authority for celebrating Easter. But there's a problem in that Easter isn't really mentioned there at all. The King James Bible translators substituted "Easter" for the Greek word Pascha, which means "Passover." "The word [Easter]does not properly occur in Scripture, although [the King James Version] has it in Acts 12:4 where it stands for Passover, as it is rightly rendered in RV" (ibid.).

The vast majority of Bible translations recognize this error in the King James Version and rightly translate the word as "Passover" in Acts 12:4. The truth is, "there is no trace of Easter celebration in the [New Testament]" (ibid.)

Where did Easter come from?

If Easter isn't found in the Bible, where exactly did it come from? And just exactly what does the name Easter mean?

It's important to review credible historical sources to understand the celebration's true history. For example, The Encyclopaedia Britannica tells us: "At Easter, popular customs reflect many ancient pagan survivals—in this instance, connected with spring fertility rites, such as the symbols of the Easter egg and the Easter hare or rabbit" (15th edition, Macropaedia, Vol. 4, p. 605, "Church Year" .

In the ancient world of the Middle East, people were far more connected to the land and cycles of nature than we are today. They depended on the land's fertility and crops to survive. Spring, when fertility returned to the land after the long desolation of winter, was a much-anticipated and welcomed time for them.

Many peoples celebrated the coming of spring with celebrations and worship of their gods and goddesses, particularly those associated with fertility. Among such deities were Baal and Astarte or Ashtoreth, mentioned and condemned frequently in the Bible, whose worship typically included ritual sex to promote fertility throughout the land.

It was only natural to the peoples of the ancient Middle East to incorporate symbols of fertility—such as eggs and rabbits, which reproduce in great numbers—into those pagan celebrations for their gods. As The Encyclopaedia Britannica notes above, Easter eggs and the Easter rabbit are simply a continuation of these ancient spring fertility rites.

Nineteenth-century Scottish Protestant clergyman Alexander Hislop's work The Two Babylons is still considered a definitive work on pagan customs that survive in today's religious practices.

On Easter, he wrote: "What means the term Easter itself? It is not a Christian name. It bears its Chaldean origin on its very forehead. Easter is nothing else than Astarte, one of the titles of Beltis, the queen of heaven, whose name, as pronounced by the people of Nineveh, was evidently identical with that now in common use in this country. That name, as found by [early archaeologist Sir Austen Henry] Layard on the Assyrian monuments, is Ishtar" (1959, p. 103).

The name Easter, then, comes not from the Bible. Instead its roots go far back to the ancient pre-Christian Mesopotamian goddess Ishtar, known in the Bible as Astarte or Ashtoreth.

Ancient resurrection celebrations

What did worship of this goddess Ishtar involve? "Temples to Ishtar had many priestesses, or sacred prostitutes, who symbolically acted out the fertility rites of the cycle of nature. Ishtar has been identified with the Phoenician Astarte, the Semitic Ashtoreth, and the Sumerian Inanna. Strong similarities also exist between Ishtar and the Egyptian Isis, the Greek Aphrodite, and the Roman Venus.

"Associated with Ishtar was the young god Tammuz [mentioned in Ezekiel 8:14], considered both divine and mortal . . . In Babylonian mythology Tammuz died annually and was reborn year after year, representing the yearly cycle of the seasons and the crops. This pagan belief later was identified with the pagan gods Baal and Anat in Canaan " (Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, 1995, "Gods, Pagan," p. 509).

Alan Watts, expert in comparative religion, wrote: "It would be tedious to describe in detail all that has been handed down to us about the various rites of Tammuz . . . and many others . . . But their universal theme—the drama of death and resurrection—makes them the forerunners of the Christian Easter, and thus the first 'Easter services.' As we go on to describe the Christian observance of Easter we shall see how many of its customs and ceremonies resemble these former rites" (Easter: Its Story and Meaning, 1950, p. 58) .

He goes on to explain how such practices as fasting during Lent, erecting an image of the deity in the temple sanctuary, singing hymns of mourning, lighting candles and nighttime services before Easter morning originated with ancient idolatrous practices (pp. 59-62).

Another author, Sir James Frazer (1854-1941), knighted for his contributions to our understanding of ancient religions, describes the culmination of the ancient idolatrous worship this way: "The sorrow of the worshippers was turned to joy . . . The tomb was opened: the god had risen from the dead; and as the priest touched the lips of the weeping mourners with balm, he softly whispered in their ears the glad tidings of salvation.

"The resurrection of the god was hailed by his disciples as a promise that they too would issue triumphant from the corruption of the grave. On the morrow . . . the divine resurrection was celebrated with a wild outburst of glee. At Rome, and probably elsewhere, the celebration took the form of a carnival" (The Golden Bough, 1993, p. 350).

A new celebration with ancient idolatrous roots

In various forms, worship of this god under the names Tammuz, Adonis and Attis, among others, spread from the outer reaches of the Roman Empire to Rome itself. There a truly remarkable development took place: Early Catholic Church leaders merged customs and practices associated with this earlier "resurrected" god and spring fertility celebrations and applied them to the resurrected Son of God.

The customs of the ancient fertility and resurrection celebrations weren't the only ones morphed into a new "Christian" celebration, but they are among the most obvious. After all, many historians readily admit the origin of the name Easter and the ancient fertility symbolism of rabbits and decorated eggs (which you can verify yourself in almost any encyclopedia).

Frazer observes: "When we reflect how often the Church has skilfully contrived to plant the seeds of the new faith on the old stock of paganism, we may surmise that the Easter celebration of the dead and risen Christ was grafted upon a similar celebration of the dead and risen Adonis" (p. 345).

He goes on to note that the desire to bring heathens into the Catholic Church without forcing them to surrender their idolatrous celebrations "may have led the ecclesiastical authorities to assimilate the Easter festival of the death and resurrection of their Lord to the festival of the death and resurrection of another Asiatic god which fell at the same season . . . the Church may have consciously adapted the new festival [of Easter] to its heathen predecessor for the sake of winning souls to Christ" (p. 359).

Surprisingly, the celebration of Easter didn't finally win out until A.D. 325, nearly 300 years after Jesus Christ's death and resurrection!

As the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains in the section titled "The Liturgical Year," "At the Council of Nicaea in 325, all the Churches agreed that Easter . . . should be celebrated on the Sunday following the first full moon . . . after the vernal equinox" (1995, p. 332).

Up until this time, many believers had continued to commemorate Jesus' death through the biblical Passover as Jesus and the apostles had instructed (Luke 22:19-20; 1 Corinthians 11:23-26). Now, however, with the power of the Roman Empire behind it, the Catholic Church enforced its preference for Easter. Those who wished to continue to observe the biblical Passover had to go underground to avoid persecution.

Would Jesus Christ celebrate Easter?
[u][b]
The record of the New Testament is clear: The faithful members of the early Church continued to observe all that the apostles taught them, as they were taught by Jesus Christ. The record of history is equally clear: In later centuries new customs, practices and doctrines were introduced that were quite foreign to the original Christians, forming a new "Christianity" they would scarcely recognize.[/b]
[/u]
So a key question is, should a Christian follow what Jesus taught or what later religious teachers taught?

It's always a good idea to ask the question, what would Jesus do?
[u][b]
If Jesus were in the flesh today, would He celebrate Easter? The simple answer is No. He does not change. "Jesus Christ is the same, yesterday, today, and forever," as Hebrews 13:8 tells us (emphasis added throughout). Jesus never observed Easter, never sanctioned it and never taught His disciples to celebrate it. Nor did the apostles teach the Church to do so.
[/b][/u]
Today, Jesus would observe the biblical Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread as Scripture teaches and as He practiced and taught (John 13:15-17; 1 Corinthians 5:7-8) . In fact, He specifically said that He anticipated observing the Passover with His true followers "in My Father's kingdom" after His return (Matthew 26:26-29).

The feasts of Passover and Unleavened Bread have deep meaning to Christ's true disciples. They reveal aspects of God's plan for the salvation of humanity—commemorating the fact that Jesus died for us and lives in us and for us (1 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:20; Colossians 3:3-4).

Should you observe Easter?

If you want to be a true disciple of Christ Jesus, you need to carefully examine whether your beliefs agree with the Bible. It is not acceptable to God to merely assume that He approves of or accepts non-biblical celebrations, regardless of whether they are done for proper motives.

The fact is that God says, "Learn not the way of the heathen"—those who don't know God's truth (Jeremiah 10:2, King James Version).

His Word gives us explicit instructions regarding worshipping Him with practices adopted from pagan idolatry: "Do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.' You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods . . . Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it" (Deuteronomy 12:30-32).

Jesus Christ now commands everyone to repent of following all man-made religious traditions: "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:30; compare Matthew 15:3).

Will you honor Christ's lifesaving instructions so that God can bless you? He said: "If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor" (John 12:26).

God wants you and me to obey His life-giving Word. When we do, we can serve Christ as His ambassadors on earth. There is no greater calling on earth and throughout time. For your ongoing happiness and security, turn to God now and seek His complete and perfect way. GN[/quote]

[url="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1811163/posts"]link[/url]

[Mateo el Feo]

I always found the "Ishtar-Easter" connection to be one of the most laughable and intellectually-bankrupt of the many fundamentalists' many conspiracy theories.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

For clarification, ttom, Budge is an anti-Catholic and probably anti-Orthodox person. I suggest placing no credence in anything she says, as most of it is made up and designed specifically to tick you off, ignore the truth, and bash your faith.

Welcome to Phatmass. I've only met a few Orthodox people in my life. Good to have you here. I'm sure we can have some interesting discussions.

I'd take the time to help you answer your friend, but I'm a bit busy with end of year projects for school.

God bless,

Micah

[NewReformation]

Sounds like a "sacred-namer."

[ttomm46]

Here Budge

read the truth:

One occasionally hears the accusation that early Christians derived Christmas and Easter from pagan celebrations, and that these feasts are therefore pagan (though overlaid with a thin veneer of Christianity). How much truth is there in this assertion?



Christmas

Since the Western Christmas (25 December) falls near the Winter Solstice (21 December), it occurs at the same time of the year as certain pagan solstice feasts. One such feast was the Roman celebration of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti (Nativity of the Invincible Sun), which commemorated the birth of the sun god Mithra. After Emperor Aurelian declared Mithra/Sol Invictus to be the patron of the Roman Empire in 274 AD, this feast in his honor became very popular.

Some say that the Christians invented Christmas, a feast in honor of Jesus' birth, as an alternative to this popular feast of Mithra's birth. Others claim that Christmas was never a separate feast, but is the feast of Sol Invictus itself, continued and adapted by pagan converts in the fourth century, after Constantine forced them to become Christians. Unwilling to abandon their beloved Mithraism, they changed Dies Natalis Solis Invicti into a feast of Christ's Nativity (since no one knows for sure what day Jesus was born).

This common theory has a few problems. First, careful study shows that Western Christians were celebrating Christmas on 25 December in the late third century, before the Sol Invictus festival was widely celebrated in the Empire 1. So Christians did not create this feast to oppose a popular Roman one. As far as Christmas being a "continuation" of a pagan festival, this seems unlikely when one considers the abhorrence many Christians felt toward paganism. Believers of Jewish descent did not suddenly lose their deep aversion to idolatry after Baptism, and converts from paganism often despised the religions which they left behind. Thousands of Christians died during the Romans persecutions rather than engage in pagan rites. Why would they embrace the hated celebrations of their persecutors?

So how did Christ's birth come to be celebrated on 25 December? Early Christians believed that Jesus was crucified on 25 March (according to the Julian Calendar, that is). They also believe that this was the very same day that He was conceived in Mary's womb about thirty-four years earlier. It seemed most fitting to them that the first day of His earthly mission be the same day as his last, thus connecting the mystery of the Incarnation with that of the Redemption.

So Christians celebrated 25 March as the Feast of the Annunciation, a commemoration which continues today. Since 25 December falls exactly nine months after the Annunciation, it seemed the most natural day on which to celebrate Jesus' birth (although Eastern Christians, following a different tradition, opted for 6 January, twelve days later than their Western brothers and sisters).

There may even be a strong basis for 25 December as the actual, historical date of Christ's nativity. In a recent issue of "Osservatore Romano" (the Vatican's official newspaper), Professor Tommaso Federici, Professor at the Pontifical Urbanian University and consultant to two Vatican Congregations, says that recent archaological discoveries in the Holy Land shed light on when Jesus was born:

"As long ago as 1958, the Israeli scholar Shemaryahu Talmon published an in-depth study on the calendar of the Qumran sect, and he reconstructed without the shadow of doubt the order of the sacerdotal rota system for the temple of Jerusalem (1 Chronicles 24, 7-18) in New Testament times. Here the family of Abijah, of which Zechariah was a descendent, father of John the herald and forerunner (Luke 1,5) was required to officiate twice a year, on the days 8-14 of the third month, and on the days 24-30 of the eighth month. This latter period fell at about the end of September. It is not without reason that the Byzantine calendar celebrated 'John's conception' on September 23 and his birth nine months later, on June 24. The 'six months' after the Annunciation established as a liturgical feast on March 25, comes three months before the forerunner's birth, prelude to the nine months in December: December 25 is a date of history" 2.
Even the common argument that shepherds would not have been in the fields in December is inaccurate. That is the time of the year when sheep naturally begin giving birth ("lambing"), and the shepherds would typically stay with the sheep at night to take care of the newborn lambs. In fact, the lambing season would have been the only time of the year in which the shepherds would have stayed with the flocks during the night (see Luke 2:8).
This information seems to confirm that Jesus could well have been born on or near 25 December, perhaps even 6 January (considering the many possible normal fluctuations of gestational periods). So either of these traditional dates may be - or at least come very close to - Jesus' real birthday! The fact that December 25 happens to fall four days after the Winter Solstice is a coincidence of history (and the Eastern Christmas is sixteen days removed from the solstice, so it's harder to see a connection there).

Easter

Easter is said to be pagan because it falls near the Vernal Equinox and because many believe that the word Easter comes from "Eostra" or "Ostara", an Anglo-Saxon goddess of Spring. This would seem to make Easter a remnant of some pagan Spring festival in honor of Eostra3.

Yet this theory is disputed. Some philologists say that Easter comes from the word "east", referring to the rising of the sun, a metaphor for the Resurrection of Christ (see Malachi 4:2). The Dictionary of Bible and Religion mentions yet another possible origin:

More recent studies seem to indicate that Easter may be derived from the Latin phrase hebdomada alba, the old term for Easter week based upon the wearing of white robes by the newly baptized. The octave of Easter, the following week, was known as post albas, the time when the white robes were put away....Easter may thus mean "white" and be named from early Christian baptismal practices. 4
The statement above regarding early Christian hostility toward paganism also fits well in this case. Why would Christian missionaries tolerate the syncretistic mixing of the feast of Christ's Resurrection with a spring fertility festival dedicated to a pagan goddess?
Even if Easter is derived from Eostra/Ostara, that would only prove a pagan influence on Christians who spoke Germanic tongues. For not all Christians call the Feast of the Resurrection "Easter". Byzantine Christians use the Greek term Pascha, a transliteration of the Hebrew word Pesach, or Passover. Pascha is also the name of this feast in Latin, the official language of the Roman Rite. The Romance languages reflect this usage; the Italian word Pasqua, the French Paques and the Spanish Pascua each derive from Pascha, and ultimately from Pesach.

Thus the Feast of Christ's Resurrection has two names among Christians: Pascha, or Passover, and Easter, which may connote "sunrise" or "white". Either way, the feast is truly Christian, not pagan.

A final problem remains: some who believe in the pagan origin of these holidays actually state that any Christian who celebrates them is unknowingly worshipping pagan deities. We can answer this by pointing out that a Christian who celebrates Easter does not intend to worship the goddess Eostra, but to commemorate the Resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ. God looks upon the heart and sees His child's intention to worship Him, so He does not mistake it for idolatry.



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Works Cited

Greg Dues, Catholic Customs and Traditions, A Popular Guide, (Mystic, CN: Twenty-Third, 1989) 61.
Tommaso Federici, Osservatore Romano 24 Dec 1998.
Contrary to one popular opinion, Easter does not derive from "Ishtar", who was a Middle Eastern goddess. The word did not originate in the Middle East; it is definitely of northern European origin.
"Easter", The Dictionary of Bible and Religion, (Nashville, TN: Abingdon, 1986) 287.

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[FullTruth]

If you guys don't mind my thoughts.

I really enjoyed Easter Turkey this year. It was delicious, and I was truly thankful for it. The fact I had it on Saturday, instead of Sunday, was not a bother for me. I fasted on Sunday, until I prayed and finished my prayer at about 6:30. That is 10-11 hours of fasting.

I love turkey.

Here's the thing, I didn't go to one 'Christian' Easter concert, even though First Pentecostal Church has the best Easter Concert in my city. They usually take the new Theatre in town over that night, and there is a 1,000 people to listen to them singing praises to our lord Jesus Christ.

I made my decision not to be involved in those holidays anymore, in a religious way. They are just nice family holidays which I can spend time with my family and the ones I love. However, God's word forbids me from saying - if you follow after Easter, you're damned.

[quote name='"Quote=1 Corinthians 8' date='KJV"']Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.

But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.

But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?

But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.[/quote]

Easter is pretty much the same thing to me. I don't care if anybody here wants to celebrate Easter. I celebrate Easter every single year, as I praise my father which is in heaven.

[quote name='"Isaiah 9:5-7' date='KJV"']For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, [b]The everlasting Father[/b], The Prince of Peace.

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.[/quote]

[quote name='"Isaiah 9:5-7' date='JPS"']For every boot stamped with fierceness, and every cloak rolled in blood, shall even be for burning, for fuel of fire.For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele- joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom;That the government may be increased, and of peace there be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it through justice and through righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts doth perform this.[/quote]

Even though, I no longer believe in Modalism, it is scriptures like these that make me sit back and think, God is truly mysterious. The Son is the Father. . .

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='FullTruth' post='1236981' date='Apr 9 2007, 08:52 PM']The Son is the Father. . .[/quote]
Well, it's a mystery of the Christian religion that all that the Father is, the Son is, and yet, the Son is not the Father. It is because they have the same nature...not only that the nature of one is identical with the nature of the other, but that there is one nature which both completely have, yet they are two persons having it. I think the prophet's point was that the Everlasting Father, i.e. God, would be incarnate. It's a beautiful thing. There's another passage, I think in Jeremiah, in which God says that He will raise up a shepherd for His people...then later, He says that He Himself and no one else will shepherd His people, the implication being, of course, that He will be the shepherd, which means that He must become incarnate.

The Incarnation is truly a beautiful mystery.

[FullTruth]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1237004' date='Apr 9 2007, 11:11 PM']Well, it's a mystery of the Christian religion that all that the Father is, the Son is, and yet, the Son is not the Father. It is because they have the same nature...not only that the nature of one is identical with the nature of the other, but that there is one nature which both completely have, yet they are two persons having it. I think the prophet's point was that the Everlasting Father, i.e. God, would be incarnate. It's a beautiful thing. There's another passage, I think in Jeremiah, in which God says that He will raise up a shepherd for His people...then later, He says that He Himself and no one else will shepherd His people, the implication being, of course, that He will be the shepherd, which means that He must become incarnate.

The Incarnation is truly a beautiful mystery.[/quote]
I love that mystery.

Great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh.

[A Yearning Heart]

Our Good Friday litergy was not a concert but a re-enactment of the Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ according to John. Very sombre and reflective experience.
No tickets sold (free entry to all). The church though, was packed to overflowing. Our Saturday night mass celebrated Our Lords Resurrection. Again, the church was full. Overjoyed experience-Christos Anesti! Christ has Risen!

[RezaMikhaeil]

This is a great discussion, I myself was raised in a church with a heavy Messianic Jew influence [from about 5th grade till 7th, and about 5 of my family members still are]. I often have discussions with messianic jews and what I'm going to say is that they don't know nothing about History of the Church. Everything that these people say about history is said from a very bias Jewish lean and in my opinion are the greatest pagans. I'm orthodox now, but I was once duped into their propaganda, which is what turned me to Muslim family members for a while...

1.) These people say that we're still under the Old Covenant and the New Covenant and that the Old never became obsolete but rather both covenants are but "one covenant" and therefore we're still bound by the Old Covenant.

Now I'm going to dig deep so forgive me: M.J's believe that we should obey the old covenant but that some elements were changed [such as we're allowed to eat pork, etc]. This itself has no doctrinal basis, because everyone knows that covenants can never be broken, altered, changed, etc. until they're fulfilled. Why can Christians eat pork? Because we're under a completely different covenant, the old was fullfilled by Jesus Christ and has become obsolete. M.J's will never admit that a Covenant cannot be altered, because their very theology suggests that the old covenant has been altered. M.J's often claim that the Apostles altered the covenant [such as eating unclean foods] but the truth is that the Apostles don't have the ability [and never had the ability] to fulfill the covenant, to alter it, etc. ONLY GOD, JESUS CHRIST INCARNATE OUR LORD AND SAVIOR THAT DIED FOR OUR SINS AS THE PERFECT SACRIFICE CAN DO THAT!

2.) Messianic Jews often never quote from Hebrews, and if approached on it, twist the words written in order to fit their agenda. As everyone knows, if you use a biblical concordance to translate greek to english, the meaning could be expansive, that in order to translate it properly, you have to find the right meaning that fits within the context. Messianic Jews ignore the hardline view taken by the majority of Christians [including most Protestants] and translate the text according to their own interpretation

Believing that Jesus Christ fulfilled the Old Testament Law, and the Old Covenant becomming obsolete doesn't work for their agenda, so they twist the scriptures to fit their agenda [not unlike lots of protestants groups]. M.J's often say that Jesus didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it [as the scriptures say] but translate the text improperly. They say that the old covenant couldn't have become obsolete, or that would be "abolishing the law", the problem with this translation is that Hebrews says that the Old Covenant has become obsolete, and even quotes the Old Testament as saying that a New Covenant would one day be created by God to replace the Old Covenant. What's the difference between abolish and obsolete? If the covenent were simply "abolished", it wouldn't have been fulfilled but rather would have been done away with, despite having not been fulfilled or completed. Since we know that the covenant was completely by our Lord Jesus Christ, we can be sure that it's been fulfilled and the New Covenant can begin, since the old has been fullfilled and no longer needs to be practiced.

3.) Messianic Jews like to demonize the Early Church, particularly St. Constantine. Their words regarding him are often insulting and uneducated at that. Messianic Jews spill propaganda that Roman Catholics, Orthodox, etc. are oppressors to Jews, that the Early Church persecuted the Jews but that the Apostles worshipped in synagogues, and were Messianic Jews themselves. They deny that someone, such as St. Contantine, that made poor choices earlier in life, but repented is possibly. You won't find a single Messianic Jew that will ever give St. Constantine the benefit of the doubt, that will acknowledge his baptism and christmation, etc. Messianic Jews don't believe that it was possible for St. Constantine to repent of his sins and be cleansed by the power of Jesus Christ. If you asked them, "can God's universal sacrifice atone for everyone" the answer will be "yes" but if you asked for St. Constantine, they'll say that his repentance was political, that it wasn't sincere, etc. despite the opposing facts.

4.) Messianic Jews are considered the most threatening cult by the modern nation of Isreal itself, and are the only group of Jews that have been denied the right of return. Messianic Jews have been denounced by "Jews for Jesus" [protestant organization, dedicated to ministering to Jewish people], etc.

5.) Messianic Jews like to say that the Gregorian Calender was used by Constantine, but after corrected are in denial for a while and then attempt to justify their lack of knowledge with a cover-up [try it and you'll see].

6.) I'd once not celebrated Christmas because I thought it was "pagan", but then my father of confession had told me, that a great amount of the customs of Christianity were not originally Christian but were "baptised". After my daughter was born, she had to wait 40 days to be baptised, why and what's the history behind that? The History is that it was part of the ancient Jewish culture, that was baptised by the Church and adopted into Christianity. There are countless other customs that Christianity has baptised and made Holy.

7.) You might notice that everyone that goes against Messianic Jews theology is labeled as "anti-semetic", equivilent to adolph hitler [one once said that believing that Jews aren't God's Chosen people but the Christians are, that I'm equivilent to hilter], the president of Iran [who's words they mistranslate because they don't know farsi] that's because they don't like people that object to them and this is a way of keeping people under their umbrella. What I like to mention to them, once they do this, is that these Zionist views that they're holding, were originated by Benjimin Theodore Hertzl, a Jewish Atheist and his decendants [the Lehi] fought side by side with Hitler [against the british common wealth forces], in an attempt to steal the land of Palestinie [and argentina, among other land], and after WWII were given amnesty in Palestine after the creation of the modern nation of Isreal.

Reza

[ttomm46]

here is where most of His info comes from :
[url="http://www.tzemach.org/index.htm"]http://www.tzemach.org/index.htm[/url]

Edited April 10, 2007 by ttomm46

[Starets]

Alexander hislop's book has been debunked so many times its not even funny. Including by one of its most eager 20th century supporters.

[123]

After hearing this, it strengthens my theory that there must be some mystic bridge linking all religions together, of course in a good way.

I doubt your religion having its roots in paganism, since it's Christianity it cannot be pagan. Simple accusation, simple hypothosis...Very dumb argument. Catholics realize that we dont' have a monopoly on symbols, and sometimes for other Christians, mostly Fundamentals or right wing Protestans, that's a very jagged pill to swallow. Even thought they are still our spiritual brothers, it's still hard for them to digest it. Why? I probably will never know why fundamentalists have a beef with Catholics.

Edited April 10, 2007 by GloriaIesusChristi

[Winchester]

Believing that certain days have an innate meaning that cannot be altered, even by the Almighty, strikes me as truly pagan.

[Budge]

[quote]After hearing this, it strengthens my theory that there must be some mystic bridge linking all religions together, of course in a good way.

I doubt your religion having its roots in paganism, since it's Christianity it cannot be pagan. Simple accusation, simple hypothosis...Very dumb argument. Catholics realize that we dont' have a monopoly on symbols, and sometimes for other Christians, mostly Fundamentals or right wing Protestans, that's a very jagged pill to swallow. Even thought they are still our spiritual brothers, it's still hard for them to digest it. Why? I probably will never know why fundamentalists have a beef with Catholics.[/quote]

All false religions do have a mystic bridge connecting them.

its called MYSTERY BABYLON.

Youre talking to the ex-Unitarian Universalist remember?

I have a beef with Catholics who have no qualms with promoting Buddism on their avatar.

It definitely shows the UNIVERSALIST mine set.

There are two religions in the world essentially, one where you become born agian in Christ and let God save you, or you try to "work" your way to heaven.

Catholicsm is in the latter boat.