Chaucer And Goes Against The Church?

[desertwoman]

Ok folks. Who all has read Chaucer, and who here believes that he is actually speaking out against the Church, or is he for it and is just showing the hypocrisy of it?

I'm going to do a paper on either the Clerks Tale or the Prioress Tale.

[Lena]

I think that much of the literature back in Chaucer's time, and especially in Spenser's [i]Faerie Queene[/i] for example (which is a little more modern than Chaucer) used their writing as a political tool to convey religious or social commentaries...I think Chaucer did want to explore the hypocrises of the church, especially with his character the Pardoner. That story had a lot of moral overtones "avarice is the root of all evil"....a very ironical character....most of it seemed didactic, pretty disruptive though-- the wife of bath was my favorite.

[desertwoman]

I have to re read the Wife of bath. She is an interesting character indeed. I might focus on the Clerks tale and how Gris is a symbol of the Church, and her husband is
Christ.

I also want to focus on the anti-semitic overtones in the Prioress Tale.

[Starets]

Ive read it but it was a couple decades ago now. Yes, he certainly pointed out the hypocrisies of the Chruch, especially with the Summoner and Pardoner. But also with the priest's tale, as he descibed what the priest did NOT do. But, I did not get the impression that he was attacking the Church itself.

[Socrates]

Chaucer was Catholic (as were most Englishmen in the middle ages prior to the Reformation). He critiques and satyrizes the sins and corruption or clergy as well as laity, but his goal was not to attack the Church as such.

Edited April 6, 2007 by Socrates

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='desertwoman' post='1231694' date='Apr 5 2007, 08:54 PM']I have to re read the Wife of bath. She is an interesting character indeed. I might focus on the Clerks tale and how Gris is a symbol of the Church, and her husband is
Christ.

I also want to focus on the anti-semitic overtones in the Prioress Tale.[/quote]
It would not have been anti-semitic to their day. I disagree with judging the past with current values.

[desertwoman]

Thanks for the responses folks. I really appreciate it. My teacher has told me to focus on the Prioress' Tale. She says that the CAtholic Church in the Middle Ages didn't think of veneration as worship, and there were plenty of church services for the veneration of Mary.

So my paper topic has to deal with Catholic liturgy and how it relates to the tale, and what is the signigicance of liturgy in the tale and what does it reveal about the Prioress.

I...of course... know nothing of Catholic liturgy.


I think we mentioned before how worship and veneration are two different things, but why were services held just for Mary?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1232185' date='Apr 6 2007, 11:02 AM']Veneration is not worship.
Mary is the greatest human that ever lived, because her fiat gave us the birth of Jesus and our possibility of salvation. She is the first witness of Christianity. When Jesus gave Mary into the keeping of St John, he makes us her children as well. Why would we NOT venerate her. Why would we NOT ask her to pray for us?[/quote]

[desertwoman]

Thanks for the response Cm. Mary is important for she gave birth to our Lord and Savior, and like you said, because she was full with faith and grace she accepted her duty that was bestowed upon her.

What I don't get, are the services that were done for her. With my mindset (that of a Protestant) when I think of services done in Church I automatically think of worship. If anyone came to a Protestant and mentioned that there were services held for Mary in the sancutuary, then worship will automatically come to mind and not veneration.

Are services different in Catholic Churches than in Protestant Churches? Do they invoke different meanings?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='desertwoman' post='1232191' date='Apr 6 2007, 11:18 AM']Thanks for the response Cm. Mary is important for she gave birth to our Lord and Savior, and like you said, because she was full with faith and grace she accepted her duty that was bestowed upon her.

What I don't get, are the services that were done for her. With my mindset (that of a Protestant) when I think of services done in Church I automatically think of worship. If anyone came to a Protestant and mentioned that there were services held for Mary in the sancutuary, then worship will automatically come to mind and not veneration.

Are services different in Catholic Churches than in Protestant Churches? Do they invoke different meanings?[/quote]

The primary service in a Catholic Church is always the Mass, but not the only one.

Yesterday was Holy Thursday Mass were we celebrate after the sun sets in memory of Passover. The priest washes the feet of 12 people to indicate his job as a servant of God. This is the night of the Passover and the Last Supper. The altar is stripped and Jesus is carried to the tabernacle.

Last night we had the seven church walk, where we go as a parish from church to church and pray for the world. All the Catholic Churches are open til about 11 oclock, and Jesus is exposed on the altar for our worship. In this way we keep watch as the Apostles were supposed to do in the Garden.

Today is Good Friday Service of the Lords Passion and Death, the only day of the year when there is not a Mass, today there will be prayers and readings and dirges during the hours of the Crucifixion. No organs, no decorations, the church has been stripped. [url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/goodfriday.shtml"]http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/goodfriday.shtml[/url]

Tonight we will have the Living Stations, where the parish reenacts the stations of the Cross. On Holy Saturday father will bless all the Easter baskets

Tomorrow the vigil of Easter, the most glorious Mass of the year.
It starts with Genesis in darkness and procceds to Jesus the Light of the World: we hear the whole history of salvation. THe Alleluia is sung for the first time since before the beginning of Lent. [url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/eastervigil.shtml"]http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/eastervigil.shtml[/url] This is the night of Baptisms and Confirmations. We rejoice!

Various other services take place during the year.
In May we will have a Mary crowning when little girls in white dresses process before a statue of Mary, who is crowned as the Queen of the Universe [ a logical extension of her being the Queen of Heaven and the new Ark of the Covanant]. We say the Rosary and ask for prayers.

In October we will have the Blessing of animals to honor St Francis.

We also have Holy Adoration where people simply sit and pray and adore Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

[desertwoman]

Thanks for the information Cm. I've heard of churches blessing animals, but I just thought that it was just us weird Charlestonians doing it.


I've always heard that focusing on Mary allows folks to focus on Jesus. How is this so?

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='desertwoman' post='1232596' date='Apr 6 2007, 10:39 PM']I've always heard that focusing on Mary allows folks to focus on Jesus. How is this so?[/quote]

I can't give any great theological answers, just a personal one. When I focus on Mary, I'm amazed at her faith, and I remember her instruction at the wedding at Cana, to "do whatever He [Jesus] tells you". So when I focus on her, I remember to follow Jesus in His instructions, and therefore focus on Him. I see it kinda like St. Paul telling people to imitate him because then they'll be imitating Christ, only more so, if that makes sense.

[Era Might]

Haven't read anything by Chaucer. I'm taking English Lit next semester though and he's on the list of authors covered.

[desertwoman]

There are translations online for you to do cross reference from middle to modern english.

I think you will enjoy it Era. And if you need any help, give your sista a holla!!!

[Era Might]

Cool. Yah, I've been falling in love with the English language. There's something really powerful about good English prose. Probably because it's my native language. If I spoke Russian, I'd probably love to read Russian literature. But I don't, so I get to read English literature! :