Advice For Budge

[jeffpugh]

Why shouldn't we become Independent Baptists? Do you not enjoy that faith yourself? Would you not recommend it to others? Why not? If there is something better to recommend, then why are you THERE? How is being a born-again Christian sufficient? Why are you an independent Baptist again?

[Budge]

[quote]
If I didn't know any better I would think that the main tenant of your faith was bashing Catholicism!![/quote]Ill let a fav. online preacher answer that one..



[quote]

YOU ARE A HATEFUL CATHOLIC BASHER
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July 15, 1996 (David W. Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061-0368, fbns@wayoflife.org) - [b]During more than twenty years of publishing experience, I have been charged countless times with being a hateful Catholic basher. In commenting on an excerpt from our forthcoming book which traces the history of Roman Catholic persecutions against the Bible, a Roman Catholic reader gave this judgment: "One gets the impression that ANY enemy of Catholics is your friend and that you are more intent on attacking Catholics than on loving and serving the Lord Jesus Christ. Beware the bitter root that eats up common sense in an unreasoning hatred of Catholics. It will not serve you well and it will be a stench in the nostrils of God."

This false accusation will always be raised when one lifts the voice against error. I replied, "My friends are not 'any' enemy of Catholics. My friends are those who love the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word above man-made tradition. Psalm 119:128. The truly important thing is not what you or I believe about [historical Christian sects], but what you or I believe about Jesus Christ, the sole Mediator between God and men, and about the Bible, the sole Word of God to man. The Lord Jesus Christ, by His once-for-all sacrifice, "hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb. 10:14). The Bible is able to make the man of God "perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Tim. 3:16-17). That means we need nothing else."[/b]

I do consider Rome the enemy of true Christianity, but that is because of its doctrines and history. I did not make Romanism what it is; I simply document it. [b]I do not hate Roman Catholics; I hate the blasphemous Roman Catholic system. I hate it for the same reason that I hate Evolution or Communism or any other false system. I hate it because it is false yet it professes to be truth; I hate it because it stands between man and the truth; I hate it because its pompous claims have detracted from the exclusive mediatorship of Jesus Christ; I hate it because multitudes have gone out into eternity lost because of it's false gospel.

Does someone protest that it is wrong to hate even a system? The Psalmist disagrees: "Therefore I esteem all thy precepts concerning all things to be right; and I HATE EVERY FALSE WAY" (Psalm 119:128).[/b] The Lord Jesus Christ commended the churches for hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans, and He encouraged the churches that He also hated both the deeds and doctrine of the Nicolaitans (Rev. 2:6,15). The term "Nicolaitan" means "to conquer the people," and probably referred to the early stages of that proud hierarchical spirit which later resulted in the formation of the Roman Catholic Church.
[b]
It is a strange and fearful quirk of human nature to charge a man with being an enemy though his only motive is to preach the truth. Thus Paul inquired of the Galatians who were being led astray by false teachers: "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"[/b] (Gal. 4:16).[/quote]

[SJP]

Come on Budge, show the other side of the coin.

We know full well what you think of the Church, so tell us what the alternative is? What does it mean to be born again?

Imagine I wasn't a Catholic and you wanted to share [b]your[/b] faith with me, what would you say??

Edited April 5, 2007 by SJP

[jeffpugh]

Ironically, you are the one with false teachings because your 'tradition' came into being when you decided to be prod. I will be happily truthful to you. The baptist way is false, it is inconsistent, it stands between you and the truth and it is not the full truth. I do not hate you personally. Only your way. You like that? We have lots of it! But that is not the way we want to dialogue. You still need to present the reason why we should be independent, born-again baptists.

[Budge]

[quote]We know full well what you think of the Church, so tell us what the alternative is? What does it mean to be born again?

Imagine I wasn't a Catholic and you wanted to share your faith with me, what would you say??[/quote]

The same thing I tell unbeliever friends, how to be saved in Jesus Christ and He is the only way to salvation.

[url="http://www.gospeltracts.com/GospelTractsView/GospelTracts/GospelTract320.htm"]http://www.gospeltracts.com/GospelTractsVi...pelTract320.htm[/url]

I share my faith with others constantly, speaking of how Jesus Christ changed my life.

My biggest fear for Catholics, is they are in a worse situation then some unbelievers, because they bleive they are CHRISTIANS, when they have been given only a fascimile of Christianity that is truly another gospel, one of works, sacraments, purgatory that DOES NOT SAVE.

When I was a Catholic, I was sincere and well intentioned like many here are, seeking after God, but I know I was told the same lies your leadership tells you, that their sacraments is what leads to your salvation, that other religions hold truths, and lead to God.

Actually one fruit of salvation, I believe is a LOVE for Gods Word. After I was saved, the FIRST day I picked up a BIble, I was blown away, and realized I was being shown truth by the Holy Spirit, the words read differently even. One thing that worries me here is the constant refrain against Gods Word {I truly believe it has been chained away from the Catholic heart} the Bible wasnt in one piece, the Bible wasnt written by then, the Bible cannot be understood, the bible didnt fall from the sky--keep hearing that one. For me this is the biggest shame on this board.

[Budge]

Also please quit hammering the BAPTIST thing..

{Some Baptists churches ARE fallen away; example Rick Warren}

I am a Christian first and foremost, I just happened to attend an indpt Baptist church for many happy years. I could end up in a different brand of a church, who knows in this new community.....but denomination does not save anyone.

[Azriel]

Budge, please answer Thess's posts.

[Budge]

[quote]AND in the CCC,[u]its way down in paragraph 4 a sub mention if there ever[/u] "[/quote]

[Knight of the Holy Rosary]

Ummmm....Thess just showed you that that it is in the first paragraph.

[Groo the Wanderer]

*** apologies in advance to any bipolar peps out there. the following question is not meant to demean or insult you ***

Budge - are you bipolar? Seriously. It would explain a lot if you were.

First you claim that the CCC shows this in the 4th paragraph, then Thess shows it is in the first paragraph, then you claim you never referred to the CCC, then you reassert it is in the 4th paragraph of the CCC.



Make up your mind please. Stop lying...to us and yourself. The 8th commandment (9th in yer 'list') expressly forbids this. Please, for your own sake, stop this madness.

[thessalonian]

I am afraid we are simply encouraging our separated sister to sin. She simply can't admit to us an error. This is very sad. I will not post in this thread anymore and will definitely pray for her as she definitely, and I say this with charity, has a serious illness.

[Akalyte]

TEN COMMANDMENTS



"To what is the difference between the Roman Catholic and Protestant versions of the Ten Commandments attributed? Whatever the answer may be, don’t you think the Commandments are out of date?"

The Ten Commandments can not be amended or abrogated. They are ten God-expressed, eternal words. Therefore they will never be out of date, though the conditions to which they apply change from generation to generation. They are basic religious and moral obligations, the seed from which every virtue emanates. Every sin committed by man is either explicitly or implicitly embodied in them.

While the Commandments in the Decalogue came to man from Mt. Sinai in definitely expressed orderly written form, they did not originate there. They were written by God into the very nature of man, being in their hearts and consciences from the beginning of human creation.

While this covenant of God with man was given through Moses to the Jews, it was intended for all the people, of all the world, during all time. That is why, as the Jews say, they were given to man in the wilderness, which belongs to the whole world, instead of Palestine, the land of Israel.

The difference between the "Catholic and Protestant version of the Commandments" is only in their numerical divisions. The Protestant (Lutherans excepted) divide the first commandment into two, and unite the 9th and 10th Commandments into one. Thus the Catholic 2nd Commandment becomes the Protestant 3rd, and so on until the Catholic 8th becomes the Protestant 9th, and the Catholics 9th and 10th, united, becomes the Protestant 10th.

The object of this change was to emphasize the Protestant groundless charge that Catholics are image worshipers. The first Commandment, based upon the enumeration of the Hebrew text by St. Augustine in the 5th century, contains a positive and negative declaration which form one whole. It enjoins the worship of the one true God and Him alone, and therefore prohibits the making of images to be adored as idols. The Protestant "version" divides this first Commandment to read, in abbreviated form:

1st Commandment – Thou shalt have no other God before me.

2nd Commandment – Thou shalt not make to thee any graven image.

The Catholic 9th and 10th Commandments are united into the Protestant 10th my making "thou shalt not covet (Deuteronomy says desire) thy neighbor’s wife" equal to the sin of coveting thy neighbor’s goods. Our Lord Jesus Christ did not declare the unlawful desire for a man’s wife to be equal to the sin of coveting thy neighbor’s goods. Our Lord Jesus Christ declared the unlawful desire for a man’s wife, adultery, to be a distinct sin:

"... But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart" (St. Matt. V. 28).

If the species of the sin of covetousness is not determined by the object coveted; if there be no difference between coveting, desiring a man’s wife and stealing his goods, then the Protestant 7th Commandment – "Thou shalt not commit adultery" – and its 8th Commandment – "Thou shalt not steal" – ought to be united into one Commandment.

The modern Jews "follow the division in the Talmud," written between "the 3rd and 6th centuries" of the Christian era, says Valentine’s Jewish Encyclopedia (1938). The Jewish authorities generally named by Protestants are Philo and Josephus, Greek writers of the first century of the Christian era. Against them stands "The whole weight of Rabbinical tradition," says the Catholic Dictionary (Addis and Arnold’s p. 196) on the side of the Catholic enumeration: "It is the only one consistent with the Hebrew text, as usually found in MMS and printed editions. The text is divided into ten sections, which correspond precisely with our Catholic division. These sections are admitted to be very ancient, older even than the Masoretic text, and the Protestant scholar Kennicott found them to be marked in 470 out of 694 MMS which he collated." It is ignorance of the Ten Commandments, their profundity and immutability, that even suggests the thought that they are "out of date." They are eternal principles that may be outvoted and disobeyed, but they will never be obliterated.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Budge' post='1230986' date='Apr 5 2007, 06:43 AM']Also please quit hammering the BAPTIST thing..

{Some Baptists churches ARE fallen away; example Rick Warren}

I am a Christian first and foremost, I just happened to attend an indpt Baptist church for many happy years. I could end up in a different brand of a church, who knows in this new community.....but denomination does not save anyone.[/quote]

Why don't you like Rick Warren?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Budge' post='1230985' date='Apr 5 2007, 09:40 AM']The same thing I tell unbeliever friends, how to be saved in Jesus Christ and He is the only way to salvation.
I share my faith with others constantly, speaking of how Jesus Christ changed my life.

My biggest fear for Catholics, is they are in a worse situation then some unbelievers, because they bleive they are CHRISTIANS, when they have been given only a fascimile of Christianity that is truly another gospel, one of works, sacraments, purgatory that DOES NOT SAVE.
When I was a Catholic, I was sincere and well intentioned like many here are, seeking after God, but I know I was told the same lies your leadership tells you, that their sacraments is what leads to your salvation, that other religions hold truths, and lead to God.
Actually one fruit of salvation, I believe is a LOVE for Gods Word. After I was saved, the FIRST day I picked up a BIble, I was blown away, and realized I was being shown truth by the Holy Spirit, the words read differently even. One thing that worries me here is the constant refrain against Gods Word {I truly believe it has been chained away from the Catholic heart} the Bible wasnt in one piece, the Bible wasnt written by then, the Bible cannot be understood, the bible didnt fall from the sky--keep hearing that one. For me this is the biggest shame on this board.[/quote]
Budge I have read the entire Bible 5+ times in the last 40 some years. I have read many of the Church Fathers and some of the early commentaries. The Bible is entirely Catholic in nature and indeed is indeed the Church's own book, and has been since the church put it together 1600 years ago. THe only reason there is a Catholic Church IS the protection and blessing of the Holy Spirit.
I am really sorry you are so lost. You still have no clue about catholics, and I am sorry we have not gotten thru to you, somehow we are failing and I ask your forgiveness.
May God have mercy you and forgive us our failings in our discussions.

I'm already saved (Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5-8),
but I am also being saved (1 Cor 1:8, 2 Cor 2:15, Phi 2:12),
and
I have the hope that I'll will be saved (Rom 5:9-10, 1 Cor 3:12-15).
Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phi 2:12),
with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom 5:2, 2 Tim 2:11-13).

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1231200' date='Apr 5 2007, 01:58 PM']I am afraid we are simply encouraging our separated sister to sin. She simply can't admit to us an error. This is very sad. I will not post in this thread anymore and will definitely pray for her as she definitely, and I say this with charity, has a serious illness.[/quote]
Ditto for me. I'm still not convinced. May the LORD bless you, and may you learn humility, as I ask for humility, and for everyone here at Phatmass.