Advice For Budge

[Akalyte]

Let me help:

TEN COMMANDMENTS



"To what is the difference between the Roman Catholic and Protestant versions of the Ten Commandments attributed? Whatever the answer may be, don’t you think the Commandments are out of date?"

The Ten Commandments can not be amended or abrogated. They are ten God-expressed, eternal words. Therefore they will never be out of date, though the conditions to which they apply change from generation to generation. They are basic religious and moral obligations, the seed from which every virtue emanates. Every sin committed by man is either explicitly or implicitly embodied in them.

While the Commandments in the Decalogue came to man from Mt. Sinai in definitely expressed orderly written form, they did not originate there. They were written by God into the very nature of man, being in their hearts and consciences from the beginning of human creation.

While this covenant of God with man was given through Moses to the Jews, it was intended for all the people, of all the world, during all time. That is why, as the Jews say, they were given to man in the wilderness, which belongs to the whole world, instead of Palestine, the land of Israel.

The difference between the "Catholic and Protestant version of the Commandments" is only in their numerical divisions. The Protestant (Lutherans excepted) divide the first commandment into two, and unite the 9th and 10th Commandments into one. Thus the Catholic 2nd Commandment becomes the Protestant 3rd, and so on until the Catholic 8th becomes the Protestant 9th, and the Catholics 9th and 10th, united, becomes the Protestant 10th.

The object of this change was to emphasize the Protestant groundless charge that Catholics are image worshipers. The first Commandment, based upon the enumeration of the Hebrew text by St. Augustine in the 5th century, contains a positive and negative declaration which form one whole. It enjoins the worship of the one true God and Him alone, and therefore prohibits the making of images to be adored as idols. The Protestant "version" divides this first Commandment to read, in abbreviated form:

1st Commandment – Thou shalt have no other God before me.

2nd Commandment – Thou shalt not make to thee any graven image.

The Catholic 9th and 10th Commandments are united into the Protestant 10th my making "thou shalt not covet (Deuteronomy says desire) thy neighbor’s wife" equal to the sin of coveting thy neighbor’s goods. Our Lord Jesus Christ did not declare the unlawful desire for a man’s wife to be equal to the sin of coveting thy neighbor’s goods. Our Lord Jesus Christ declared the unlawful desire for a man’s wife, adultery, to be a distinct sin:

"... But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart" (St. Matt. V. 28).

If the species of the sin of covetousness is not determined by the object coveted; if there be no difference between coveting, desiring a man’s wife and stealing his goods, then the Protestant 7th Commandment – "Thou shalt not commit adultery" – and its 8th Commandment – "Thou shalt not steal" – ought to be united into one Commandment.

The modern Jews "follow the division in the Talmud," written between "the 3rd and 6th centuries" of the Christian era, says Valentine’s Jewish Encyclopedia (1938). The Jewish authorities generally named by Protestants are Philo and Josephus, Greek writers of the first century of the Christian era. Against them stands "The whole weight of Rabbinical tradition," says the Catholic Dictionary (Addis and Arnold’s p. 196) on the side of the Catholic enumeration: "It is the only one consistent with the Hebrew text, as usually found in MMS and printed editions. The text is divided into ten sections, which correspond precisely with our Catholic division. These sections are admitted to be very ancient, older even than the Masoretic text, and the Protestant scholar Kennicott found them to be marked in 470 out of 694 MMS which he collated." It is ignorance of the Ten Commandments, their profundity and immutability, that even suggests the thought that they are "out of date." They are eternal principles that may be outvoted and disobeyed, but they will never be obliterated.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Budge' post='1229648' date='Apr 4 2007, 02:10 PM']I witness to unbeleivers all the time...

While on here, you all automatically consider me your "enemy" for daring to question your church, I have had success elsewhere.[/quote]

Out of all things you said there, this one stands out. I have to say that I did not think you to be the "enemy" when I joined Phatmass. Still don't. But I do not agree with your tactics. If you were the enemy, you wouldn't be the only one seeing Dairygirl4u2c has the "separated brethren" label as well as many others. I'm sure you are a different person on line than in real life... maybe not. I just hope we can reconcile here. Pretty much why this thread is opened. Wow 2 years, eh? We should have a party

Btw Akalyte, that was pretty eloquent. I'll keep that in mind if/when I get asked about the commandments. :

Edited April 5, 2007 by Sacred Music Man

[thessalonian]

You know budge, I'm sure that if you said, "I made a mistake and misrepresented Catholicism on this one, I'm sorry" people are pretty forgiving around here and in the long run I'm bettin your would improve your chances at deceiving, I mean winning someone over.

By the way budge, not to boast because the lord did the work and others were involved, but I've been on many protestant boards and it has not taken me nearly as long as 2 years on any board to move someone toward the Church. And I've had a couple track me down later and tell me they were coming to the Church. One was a very hard anti-catholic like you. Though not with the baggage of being Catholic and leaving. That hebrews 6 passage always scares me a bit with your type. You know the one about having tasted the fruit they cannot be restored. I suppose maybe it's like the rich man passing through the eye of a needle. It's possible with God but not for us. So there's hope separated sister.

Edited April 5, 2007 by thessalonian

[jeffpugh]

Ooh... heh... funny... I don't think she'll hear you anyways....

[Budge]

You brought up the CCC FIRST and probably with the intention to trip me up given I NEVER MENTIONED THE CCC on my AVATAR.

I was always REFERRING TO THE LIST OF COMMANDMENTS, such as THIS...

[img]http://catholicshopper.com/products/media/ASC_0974445118.jpg[/img]

The numbering IS different and it diminishes the prohibition against graven images.

But all this complaining and quibbling, was with the main perogative..

of

1. Changing the subject to that of messenger...{WHY ELSE WOULD THERE BE TWO THREADS addressed to me persoanlly?]

2. Divert

3. Deny

4. Deflect so hard questions about scriptures here wont have to be answered.

Edited April 5, 2007 by Budge

[Budge]

[quote]The Protestant (Lutherans excepted) divide the first commandment into two,[/quote]

WEASLE ALERT.

Have no other gods before me is an entirely DIFFERENT commandment.

This is how Rome, CHANGES the commandment, it means [u]ANY [/u]GRAVEN IMAGES....[this is so they can pass off that *some* images are allowed]
[b]
Exd 20:4 ¶ Thou shalt not make unto thee [b]any[/b] graven image, or [b]any [/b]likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
[/b]

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Budge' post='1230260' date='Apr 4 2007, 09:27 PM']You brought up the CCC FIRST and probably with the intention to trip me up given I NEVER MENTIONED THE CCC on my AVATAR.

I was always REFERRING TO THE LIST OF COMMANDMENTS, such as THIS...

[img]http://catholicshopper.com/products/media/ASC_0974445118.jpg[/img]

The numbering IS different and it diminishes the prohibition against graven images.

But all this complaining and quibbling, was with the main perogative..

of

1. Changing the subject to that of messenger...{WHY ELSE WOULD THERE BE TWO THREADS addressed to me persoanlly?]

2. Divert

3. Deny

4. Deflect so hard questions about scriptures here wont have to be answered.[/quote]

This is really getting sad. I did not mention the CCC first. Budge you need to go back and look. All my posts above your DO NOT MENTION THE CCC. I simply did not. And you said, as if you knew, "graven Images is never mentioned on the short lists [b]AND[/b] in the [b]CCC[/b], its way down in paragraph 4 a sub mention if there ever " I fully and graciously admit that the way we list them is not your infallible tradition of listing them (since no such list appears in the Bible anywhere). I don't deny it for a second. I am not diverting. You are. The question you pose is not in the slightest bit diffficult.

Those are your words Budge. I copied them from your answer in your post. 1) 2) 3) 4) back at ya. I am just completely flabberghasted at your inabillity to admit a mistake and move on. Truly sad. Your making a complete fool of yourself and I'm trying to be kind here. The Bible does not speak well of geniuses. But I will let you look it up.

Blessings

Edited April 5, 2007 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Budge' post='1230269' date='Apr 4 2007, 09:33 PM']WEASLE ALERT.

Have no other gods before me is an entirely DIFFERENT commandment.

This is how Rome, CHANGES the commandment, it means [u]ANY [/u]GRAVEN IMAGES....[this is so they can pass off that *some* images are allowed]
[b]
Exd 20:4 ¶ Thou shalt not make unto thee [b]any[/b] graven image, or [b]any [/b]likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
[/b][/quote]


If one is worshipping a statue as a god, wouldn't that be having another God before thee?

Edited April 5, 2007 by thessalonian

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1230260' date='Apr 4 2007, 08:27 PM']You brought up the CCC FIRST and probably with the intention to trip me up given I NEVER MENTIONED THE CCC on my AVATAR.

I was always REFERRING TO THE LIST OF COMMANDMENTS, such as THIS...

[img]http://catholicshopper.com/products/media/ASC_0974445118.jpg[/img]

The numbering IS different and it diminishes the prohibition against graven images.

But all this complaining and quibbling, was with the main perogative..

of

1. Changing the subject to that of messenger...{WHY ELSE WOULD THERE BE TWO THREADS addressed to me persoanlly?]

2. Divert

3. Deny

4. Deflect so hard questions about scriptures here wont have to be answered.[/quote]

Budge, that chart doesn't diminish the prohibition against graven images. Worshipping graven images is still implied, since the First Commandment says that we can have no other gods.

How can you blame people for their tactics when you yourself will not practice honest debate? Your tactic seems to be: accuse, ignore, ad hominem, ignore, ignore, strawman, accuse, ignore, strawman, claim to be better, accuse, ignore.

You are so filled with hatred against Catholics that whenever we write something, you're trying to find all the little apparent errors you can for the next attack, when, if you would actually read what we're writing, you'd realize, "oh, that's not what they mean at all...what they're saying is completely different from what I thought it was."

Please, Budge, try reading a whole post without criticizing it, taking a moment to reflect, understand what the other person is trying to say, and respond with your contrary reasoning. That's how debate goes. If you read only bits and pieces of what we say, though, you see one thing and think we're going in a completely different direction with it than we really are.

To everyone else, be polite, too. I hold that to myself, as well.

God bless,

Micah

[Budge]

[quote]Worshipping graven images [b]is still implied[/b], since the First Commandment says that we can have no other gods.[/quote]

But left off the main LISTS, isnt it...?

only mentioned as a sub-listing...part 4.

[quote]You are so filled with hatred against Catholics that whenever we write something, you're trying to find all the little apparent errors you can for the next attack, when, if you would actually read what we're writing, you'd realize, "oh, that's not what they mean at all...what they're saying is completely different from what I thought it was."
[/quote]And you are doing this..
[quote]
Catholic apologist technique:


* 3: Accusation of hate technique


Insist vehemently that your opponent is full of hate.
It is always advisable to paint your opponent as hateful.
This technique should always contain a reference,
to your extreme caringness and the limitless bounds of your great hu[/quote]mility.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Budge' post='1230291' date='Apr 4 2007, 09:44 PM']But left off the main LISTS, isnt it...?

only mentioned as a sub-listing...part 4.

And you are doing this..
mility.[/quote]
You're still using that stupid handbook thing?

I've outed that before. Tsk, tsk.

[thessalonian]

Budge, you need to answer my last two posts. This is really sad.

[SJP]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1230359' date='Apr 4 2007, 11:09 PM']You're still using that stupid handbook thing?

I've outed that before. Tsk, tsk.[/quote]


Yeah, I thought we had already been through this???


On another note,

I would like to know why I should become an indep. Baptist??

Budge gives umpteen arguments about how evil the Church is, but she seems to say very little about the joy of being an indep. baptist.

Tell us Budge, why should we become baptists???

[Budge]

Theres something else people are wrong about.

I have [b]NEVER[/b] told anyone here to become an indpt Baptist.

in fact I dont care if you do.

I only care if you become a born again Christian. {and come out of her}

[SJP]

"I only care if you become a born again Christian. {and come out of her}"

Well then tell us why we should become "born again" and what that means to you!

As was stated earlier:

"It stands to reason that if you spend most of your time condemning another person's faith than you too must be a bit unsettled in your own faith"

You're not providing a true witness, you're just trashing our faith and doing a terrible job of convincing us that we should become "born again"

If I didn't know any better I would think that the main tenant of your faith was bashing Catholicism!!

How is that going to attract people to become born again???? How is that going to help people experience true conversion to Christ??? How will that lead to eternal life with God?????

You need to re-think your strategy Budge.

So tell us, what does it mean to be "born again"???

Edited April 5, 2007 by SJP