Why Is The Eucharist Needed To Apply The Cross?

[Budge]

Dont you go partake of the Eucharist to be "with" "christ" in a more "intense" way per your beliefs?

What Im trying to say to you is this is unncessary, the Holy Spirit is within Christians THEMSELVES, they do not need sacraments to be with Jesus.
[quote]
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is]the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your [b]remembrance[/b],{anamnesis} whatsoever I have said unto you.[/quote]


hmm that goes back to that word being discussed elsewhere.

364. anamnesis
Search for G364 in KJVSL
anamnhsiV anamnesis an-am'-nay-sis

from 363; recollection:--remembrance (again).

See Greek 363

Hey learned a new Greek word, via my debates with you all, cant say my time here is totally wasted;)

Edited April 14, 2007 by Budge

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Budge, once we are open to God's grace, He pours in as much as we can hold, but we must be open to it. He guides us to be open to it...He stands at the door and knocks. We have to open it. We are justified by being joined to Christ, who is justified, as branches on a vine. That way, we share in His fruit. It is truly His fruit in us, but because He gives it to us and allows us to cooperate in growing it, it is also our fruit. That fruit is our salvation. In order to become more and more open to Him, He guides us and gives us the strength to grow more perfectly engrafted onto Him as branches on a vine. It is all His gift; we only cooperate with His work in us. The sacraments are one of the ways He works in us. It is like a dance...God pulls us from in front, He places His hand on our backs to guide us and push us from behind, but we have to move our feet.

We are His handiwork. Our salvation is His gift. The sacraments are means of conferring that gift upon us.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Budge' post='1243109' date='Apr 14 2007, 03:11 PM']you got it.

Let me bring up this to answer your point...

Why do I need to receive Christ, via wafer when I have received Jesus Christ via faith, and I dont need refill ups on that one, that is for good!

The Bible says DIRECTLY that CHRIST [via the Holy Spirit] LIVES IN EVERY CHRISTIAN.

[b]
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, [b]but Christ liveth in me:[/b] and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.[/b]

Going way back to the begining why is the Eucharist even necessary?[/quote]

you're right. if you're outside the Catholic Church and don't know the truth of it, then you don't need the Sacraments. let me ask you this, do all Jews need to celebrate the Passover? does everyone need a church? do you need fellowship? do you need a pastor? do you ever need help interpreting the Bible? do you need anyone else but Christ?

Raphael explained it. the Sacraments complete the fullness of the Church that Jesus left us. He gives us abundant grace, more than we can ever need. many people just don't use it. He offers the truth, He doesn't force it. why short change yourself if you know about (but not fully) all the tools He gives us? i certainly want and need all that He offers. being away from the Eucharist and the Sacraments would be like splashing in a puddle of mud when the infinite fountain and vast ocean is right there.

[RezaMikhaeil]

I'd once heard a story about a Protestant that approached a Russian Orthodox Monk and said "why do you need those spiritual crutches" [referring to the Sacraments] and the Monk responded with, "because I'm a spiritual cripple".

Reza

[Budge]

Reza I believe that Jesus does more then just open the door, He is the author and finisher of our faith and salvation.

As I have said numerous times here Catholics get justification and sanctification messed up.

Catholics sadly elieve justification can be ripped away at any time.

One does not need middle men or rituals to confer Gods gift of salvation.


[quote]being away from the Eucharist and the Sacraments would be like splashing in a puddle of mud when the infinite fountain and vast ocean is right there.[/quote]The Living Waters are from Christ, not from a wafre.

I partook of the [mod]Most Holy Eucharist -Aloysius[/mod] for years as a Catholic kid, it did nothing for me. The way you folks talk youd think that everyone who took a bite of the [mod]Most Holy Eucharist -Aloysius[/mod] would be overwhelmed by its awesomeness and become ever holy. Considering BIll Clinton once got a Catholic [mod]Most Holy Eucharist -Aloysius[/mod], it didnt do anything for him.
[quote]

I'd once heard a story about a Protestant that approached a Russian Orthodox Monk and said "why do you need those spiritual crutches" [referring to the Sacraments] and the Monk responded with, "because I'm a spiritual cripple".[/quote]

No one is crippled when they are in Christ.

This monk may have been telling the truth.

If he becomes born again, he would realize that Jesus would be carrying him.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1244211' date='Apr 15 2007, 09:28 AM']Reza I believe that Jesus does more then just open the door, He is the author and finisher of our faith and salvation.

As I have said numerous times here Catholics get justification and sanctification messed up.

Catholics sadly elieve justification can be ripped away at any time.[/quote]
No, we believe that people can reject justification at any time. There's a difference.

Of course, if God wanted to take back what He's given, that's in His power, but He wouldn't do that.

[quote]One does not need middle men or rituals to confer Gods gift of salvation.[/quote]God chose to work through His apostles. How can you accept the Gospel if it is not preached? How can the Gospel be preached unless God sends out people to preach it? God chooses to work through those He has sent (literally, "apostoloi"). You can call them middle men if you like, but the Bible says their necessary.

As for rituals, God Himself told us to use them, "...baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." If you want to reject Scripture, do it overtly, not in secret by leaving out important passages.

Also, Budge, you've said we get justification and sanctification mixed up, but you've never defended that position.

[quote]The Living Waters are from Christ, not from a wafre.[/quote]

Very good. Now, the "wafer" (as you call it) is Christ. Therefore, the Living Waters are from the Eucharist.

[quote]I partook of the wafer for years as a Catholic kid, it did nothing for me. The way you folks talk youd think that everyone who took a bite of the wafer would be overwhelmed by its awesomeness and become ever holy. Considering BIll Clinton once got a Catholic wafer, it didnt do anything for him.[/quote]The grace of the sacraments can only enter the soul to the degree the soul is open to receiving them. Many people, unfortunately, do not even know what grace is.

[quote]No one is crippled when they are in Christ.

This monk may have been telling the truth.

If he becomes born again, he would realize that Jesus would be carrying him.[/quote]

No one is a cripple when they are in Christ? In what sense? In the spiritual sense? "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do...But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" (Romans 7:19, 23, KJV). St. Paul had ailments and difficulties, which the Lord helped him to deal with. In the physical sense? St. Paul suffered for Jesus and his body, which rebelled against him, he held in submission: "Finally, let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the marks of Jesus;" "I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize" (Galatians 6:17, 1 Corinthians 9:27).

Jesus does not carry us without our cooperation. He lives in us so that we may live in Him. We still continue to live, we still continue to walk and to suffer. We still live our lives, but our lives are becoming conformed to Christ's life. Even still, it is still we who work and and use our crippled bodies by the grace of Christ.

God bless,

Micah

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Budge' post='1244211' date='Apr 15 2007, 08:28 AM']Reza I believe that Jesus does more then just open the door, He is the author and finisher of our faith and salvation.

[color="#FF0000"]So... does this mean that you take a calvanist stance?[/color]

As I have said numerous times here Catholics get justification and sanctification messed up.

[color="#FF0000"]I'm not Roman Catholic thou, so that doesn't relate to me. I'm Coptic Orthodox and disagree with Romans greatly on numerous issues but this isn't one of them. It's impossible to historically and/or scripturally deny the sacraments, particularly the Eucharist.[/color]

Catholics sadly elieve justification can be ripped away at any time.

[color="#FF0000"]So... you believe in "onced saved always saved"? And if that's the case, then you believe that people can continue in sin, and at the end of the day just "ask Jesus for forgiveness and get saved again and its all good." This doesn't even remotely work scripturally or spiritually. There's no sense of accountability.[/color]

One does not need middle men or rituals to confer Gods gift of salvation.

[color="#FF0000"]This is where we might differ. I believe that we should worship God as he'd like us to worship him, not as we'd like to worship him. If he instructs his followers to pray liturgy, even if we don't want to do it, who are we to deny him? He's worthy and we're not. I can't count the number of times that protestants have said "traditional liturgies don't touch me because they are boring and not extreme enough" but again, it doesn't matter what we think, it matters what he thinks and since Jesus Christ gave his Apostles the Holy Liturgy's [and ultimately to everyone], that's how we should worship him. You might say that God doesn't need middle men, but God is the same yesterday, today and forever and if you check out the old testament, you'll see that not everyone could enter the Holy of Holies. You'll also see that God gave the Apostles to shepard the flock.[/color]

The Living Waters are from Christ, not from a wafre.

[color="#FF0000"]I believe that living waters are from Christ too, that's why I have in Jesus Christ and the Eucharist that was affirmed by Jesus Christ. I'm more then thankful for having the blessing of being able to partake in the Eucharist for the remission of sins because I'm not capable of making my sins go into remission by myself. It's such a blessing to be set free from my own interpretations and my own thoughts, by having faith in Christ's Words and partaking in the Eucharist so that I might have life in me, as was written "whoever doesn't eat his flesh and drink his blood doesn't have life in him".[/color]

I partook of the wafer for years as a Catholic kid, it did nothing for me.

[color="#FF0000"]How do you know? That's the greatness of the Sacraments, we don't always know their affect. They are "mysteries" with great affects not always know to humans, and aren't always to be known. Moreover, there's been numerous people healed from mass amounts of illnessess after partaking in the Eucharist, so it's done great wonders for others and for me personally, it's a humbling experience, to have the privilage to partake in Jesus's flesh and blood, and knowing [through faith] that life is abundantly dwelling inside of me, through proofs of a physical experiences, not just a "I hope so..." experience. We have the promise that Jesus Christ gave us, while Protestants just have a "I hope he's dwelling in me" wish upon a star, throw a coin in the collections plate, maybe kind of hope.[/color]

The way you folks talk youd think that everyone who took a bite of the wafer would be overwhelmed by its awesomeness and become ever holy.

[color="#FF0000"]That seems closer to your beliefs, then ours. We don't believe in "Just accept Jesus once and you're automatically going to heaven" but also our own personal responsiblity.[/color]

Considering BIll Clinton once got a Catholic wafer, it didnt do anything for him.

[color="#FF0000"]I don't think that you're in any position to judge anyone else. You don't know if it did anything for him, you're pre-judging somebody. Let him without sin cast the first stone.[/color]

No one is crippled when they are in Christ.

[color="#FF0000"]I beg to differ, the scriptures say that we're all filthy rags.[/color][/quote]

[desertwoman]

amen

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1244165' date='Apr 15 2007, 07:08 AM']I'd once heard a story about a Protestant that approached a Russian Orthodox Monk and said "why do you need those spiritual crutches" [referring to the Sacraments] and the Monk responded with, "because I'm a spiritual cripple".[/quote]Great story!

PS: Nice "Romans" quote from Raphael, too.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Budge' post='1244211' date='Apr 15 2007, 08:28 AM'][quote]I'd once heard a story about a Protestant that approached a Russian Orthodox Monk and said "why do you need those spiritual crutches" [referring to the Sacraments] and the Monk responded with, "because I'm a spiritual cripple".[/quote]
No one is crippled when they are in Christ.

This monk may have been telling the truth.

If he becomes born again, he would realize that Jesus would be carrying him.
[/quote]

[b]humility[/b]
: the quality or state of being humble.
we are all crippled by sin until we are with Him again. Jesus is our crutch, and at the same time he gives us many tools to tune those crutches.

[b]charity[/b]
: marked by or disposed to benevolent goodwill toward
synonym see MERCY


"born again".. "saved".. "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child. But, when I became a man, I put away the things of a child."


[quote]I'd once heard a story about a Protestant that approached a Russian Orthodox Monk and said "why do you need those spiritual crutches" [referring to the Sacraments]and the Monk responded with, "because I'm a spiritual cripple".[/quote]

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Budge' post='1244211' date='Apr 15 2007, 08:28 AM']I partook of the wafer for years as a Catholic kid, it did nothing for me. The way you folks talk youd think that everyone who took a bite of the wafer would be overwhelmed by its awesomeness and become ever holy. Considering BIll Clinton once got a Catholic wafer, it didnt do anything for him.[/quote]

you haven't learned that one aspect of receiving the Eucharist is mutual. in as much as you put into it, your get from it. you come to the sacrifice with nothing, you receive nothing. you come without an understanding and thinking you just need to eat the round wafer so you can go home, and He will reciprocate the same. this is the plight of 99% of the people who receive communion.

now if you come with an ounce of genuine desire, and he will lay the abundant graces on you. unfortunately this is something that you have not been able to experience, and i'm sorry to say that with your current attitude, you will never receive them.
if you come with an ounce of faith, He will lay a metric ton on you.
if you come with an ounce of humility..

you don't buy it? then you leave the store with nothing..

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]you haven't learned that one aspect of receiving the Eucharist is mutual. in as much as you put into it, your get from it. you come to the sacrifice with nothing, you receive nothing.[/quote]

Amen. The same could be said for all kinds of prayer.

That said, I have a friend who is in the process of converting to Catholicism from evangelical Christianity. (Her family is Baptist.) She came to visit me from New Zealand over Christmas. When she walked into our little student chapel for the first time, she stood in the doorway and just looked at the tabernacle for a long time. Fifteen minutes later we moved into the big hall for Mass, which has no tabernacle. Afterwards she said, "It changed when the bells rang."

I asked her what she meant. She replied, "It started to feel like the room with the gold curtain."

That was the first time she had set foot in a Catholic church. She has autism and a speech and language disorder that prevents her from understanding most of what she hears and makes speech a real effort. There was no way she could have known anything about the consecration or the Real Presence. And yet she knew.

[desertwoman]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1244638' date='Apr 15 2007, 06:38 PM']Amen. The same could be said for all kinds of prayer.

That said, I have a friend who is in the process of converting to Catholicism from evangelical Christianity. (Her family is Baptist.) She came to visit me from New Zealand over Christmas. When she walked into our little student chapel for the first time, she stood in the doorway and just looked at the tabernacle for a long time. Fifteen minutes later we moved into the big hall for Mass, which has no tabernacle. Afterwards she said, "It changed when the bells rang."

I asked her what she meant. She replied, "It started to feel like the room with the gold curtain."

That was the first time she had set foot in a Catholic church. She has autism and a speech and language disorder that prevents her from understanding most of what she hears and makes speech a real effort. There was no way she could have known anything about the consecration or the Real Presence. And yet she knew.[/quote]

Whoa!!! Thats amazing!!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1244638' date='Apr 15 2007, 04:38 PM']Amen. The same could be said for all kinds of prayer.

That said, I have a friend who is in the process of converting to Catholicism from evangelical Christianity. (Her family is Baptist.) She came to visit me from New Zealand over Christmas. When she walked into our little student chapel for the first time, she stood in the doorway and just looked at the tabernacle for a long time. Fifteen minutes later we moved into the big hall for Mass, which has no tabernacle. Afterwards she said, "It changed when the bells rang."

I asked her what she meant. She replied, "It started to feel like the room with the gold curtain."

That was the first time she had set foot in a Catholic church. She has autism and a speech and language disorder that prevents her from understanding most of what she hears and makes speech a real effort. There was no way she could have known anything about the consecration or the Real Presence. And yet she knew.[/quote]

Absolutely beautiful.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

She is one of my best friends and my life would be quite dull without her. She has an amazingly intuitive understanding of the Catholic faith. [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=66315&hl"]This conversation[/url] in the Open Mic shows how much she knows. The strange thing is that she doesn't even seem to realise what a deep level of understanding she has. Edited April 15, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous