Why Is The Eucharist Needed To Apply The Cross?

[Budge]

[quote]If you're going to argue, argue what people are actually saying.[/quote]Come on with sentences like this, who really knows..I dont think half of you even KNOW what youre saying

[quote]It's nothing to do with Jesus' death being perpetual, but with being perpetuated.[/quote]

Like nailing jello to a wall...

[img]http://graeme.woaf.net/otherbits/jellypics/nailing_jelly_to_the_wall.jpg[/img]

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Budge' post='1230370' date='Apr 4 2007, 11:14 PM']Come on with sentences like this, who really knows..I dont think half of you even KNOW what youre saying
Like nailing jello to a wall...

[img]http://graeme.woaf.net/otherbits/jellypics/nailing_jelly_to_the_wall.jpg[/img][/quote]

Now we are getting somewhere. Budge has broken down her pride by admitting she has no idea what is said. She has stopped pretending to know. We can help you understand our point of view, then you can refute. k? :)

[Budge]

[quote]It's nothing to do with Jesus' death being perpetual, but with being perpetuated.[/quote]

Your point of view is muddled confusion.

And Satan is the author of it.

Perpetual...

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
per·pet·u·al /pərˈpɛtʃuəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[per-pech-oo-uhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. [b]continuing or enduring forever; everlasting.[/b]
2. lasting an indefinitely long time: perpetual snow.
3. continuing or continued without intermission or interruption; ceaseless: a perpetual stream of visitors all day.
4. blooming almost continuously throughout the season or the year.
–noun
5. a hybrid rose that is perpetual.
6. a perennial plant.
[Origin: 1300–50; late ME perp


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
per·pet·u·ate /pərˈpɛtʃuˌeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[per-pech-oo-eyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -at·ed, -at·ing.
1. [b]to make perpetual.[/b]
2. to preserve from extinction or oblivion: to perpetuate one's name.
[Origin: 1520–30; < L perpetuātus (ptp. of perpetuāre, deriv. of perpetuus uninterrupted). See perpetual, -ate1]


As I said half of you dont even know what you are saying. For this one, it probably was ripped off some mumbo jumbo site about the Eucharist.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Budge, why is it that you cite dictionaries all the time, but never bother to look at the other meanings of the word listed? No one said that the sacrifice is extended for all time. What we said is that others through all time may be able to share in it. "Perpetuated" is a fitting word because those in all times are able to share in it, even though it happened once and is over. If you look up the Latin, it can also mean "general" or "universal." Thus, perpetual in the sense we use it means that the universal Church, through all time, is able to experience the one time event. I already made a post to this effect. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you've answered it yet.

[Apotheoun]

The Last Supper anticipated the power of the Cross, while the Eucharistic liturgy is its perpetual memorial ([font="Symbol"]anamnesiV[/font]).

[Winchester]

Jesus said this is my body, this is my blood. He did not say this symbolizes my body, this symbolizes my blood. He certainly could have. In a previous passage in the Bible, He did not call people back saying He was being symbolic when He said we would have to comsume His Body and Blood. I've heard the brood of vipers argument to try to refute this, hence my special mention of a case when people were chased away by something they obviously then in their own language an culture interpreted as literal. Christ did not disabuse them of the notion.

He then at the Last Supper said the above and then said do this in memory of me. Thus we do what He did and we take Him literally, as did the members of His society.

[RezaMikhaeil]

"Do this in rememberance of me"... I'd once heard someone that spoke and read greek as a first language say that a more accuate translation is "do this to partake in me", don't know how accurate that is but if the greek does imply that, it would make some sense.

Reza

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Akalyte' post='1225714' date='Apr 1 2007, 11:03 AM']either someone kick budge off of phatmass..Or I will never come here again. Enough is enough.[/quote]

I'm glad that we're still seeing you. and I'm glad that budge is here.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1232163' date='Apr 6 2007, 07:36 AM']"Do this in rememberance of me"... I'd once heard someone that spoke and read greek as a first language say that a more accuate translation is "do this to partake in me", don't know how accurate that is but if the greek does imply that, it would make some sense.

Reza[/quote]
I've been told that the Greek word for "rememberance" is better translated, "make present again." I can see how the two might be connected and if so, it's a perfect word for the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

[cmotherofpirl]

THe word is anamnesis, meaning we are there now, the past is present [ going on] at this moment. It is the perfect word. Rememberance is terribly inadequate, but there is not equivalence in english.
here is a good explanation: [url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a78.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a78.htm[/url]

[Sojourner]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1232163' date='Apr 6 2007, 07:36 AM']"Do this in rememberance of me"... I'd once heard someone that spoke and read greek as a first language say that a more accuate translation is "do this to partake in me", don't know how accurate that is but if the greek does imply that, it would make some sense.

Reza[/quote]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1232280' date='Apr 6 2007, 10:46 AM']I've been told that the Greek word for "rememberance" is better translated, "make present again." I can see how the two might be connected and if so, it's a perfect word for the Sacrament of the Eucharist.[/quote]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1232316' date='Apr 6 2007, 11:24 AM']THe word is anamnesis, meaning we are there now, the past is present [ going on] at this moment. It is the perfect word. Rememberance is terribly inadequate, but there is not equivalence in english.
here is a good explanation: [url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a78.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a78.htm[/url][/quote]
Interesting. My dad (Protestant) learned Greek so he could read the NT in Greek ... I wonder what he'd say about this.

[AccountDeleted]

I admit I haven't read every post on this thread but I do have a question for Budge, which is something I would really like to understand.

Please correct me if I am wrong here Budge, but my understanding of born-again Christians is that once you accept Jesus as your personal savior, you are saved for all time. Is this correct? My question is this - are there any conditions to this salvation or can a person get saved and then go and do whatever they want to do? We Catholics (as you know) attend reconciliation when we sin, to reconcile ourselves with God again. Are born-agains (is that what you are called? if not, please let me know what you prefer) allowed to commit any sin and still be guaranteed salvation, or do they have to stay pure, or what happens if they fall from grace through sin? I honestly don't get it because no one is perfect and we all commit sin, even the sin of lack of charity or lying etc.

For me, the Sacrament of Reconciliation and then of the Eucharist, allow me to ask for God's forgiveness, and then to be united with Him again. Do you have something that you do for this? Or do you just accept Jesus again? I am seriously asking because I don't know. I went to a Christian summer camp once with a girlfriend when I was about 10 years old, and since I didn't have a religion at the time, when they asked for people to come forward and be saved, I did. I accepted Jesus into my heart and was born-again and saved. It was a lovely experience at the time, but all it did was whet my appetite to know Jesus more closely.

Anyway, after doing research, it became clear to me that there was only one church established after Jesus, that was the Catholic Church. And because of problems in the Church, some people separated and became Protestants. And then the Protestants started splitting up because everyone had their own idea of how things should be done, and since they had no Pope to guide them, they just kept fragmenting even more. And now there are a multitide of Protestant churches, each claiming that their version is better than anyone else's.

I would love to know what you love most about your way of worshipping Jesus? You love the gospel, so do I (although we disagree on interpretation of course). What actually made you think that the way you chose was FACT? You mention the Holy Spirit in some of your posts - do you experience this when you attend services? For me, the Holy Spirit comes upon me when I am closest to God, and usually this is after receiving Communion, but also at other times. What helps you? Maybe sharing your own experiences of God will help us to understand you better, and to grow closer.

And I guess my last question is how do all the born-agains know who is right and who is wrong, because there are several denominations of born-again and I have seen you post negative comments about some that you feel aren't "doing it right" or saying the right things or something. But they think they are born-again and that they are right. How do all of you decide which born-again is better than another one? It must be very hard when you can just switch communities any time you disagree with something that is said, or when the interpretation doesn't suit you. You talked about leaving the idpt baptist for another community -- what is your criteria for which one is right? Doesn't it get tiring trying to be right all the time?

I truly wish you would come home - you have been wandering around for a long time, and it doesn't seem to have made you any happier. There is so much love inside you, and it is all being diverted to self-righteous wrath instead. Whatever hurt you, let it heal. God love you.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1232163' date='Apr 6 2007, 06:36 AM']"Do this in rememberance of me"... I'd once heard someone that spoke and read greek as a first language say that a more accuate translation is "do this to partake in me", don't know how accurate that is but if the greek does imply that, it would make some sense.

Reza[/quote]
Yes, what you have said is correct, because as biblical scholar Brevard S. Childs wrote, "Remembrance equals participation" [B. S. Childs, [u]Memory and Tradition in Israel[/u], (London: SCM Press Ltd., 1962), page 56].

For those interested in reading more on this topic, I'm including a link to a paper that I wrote while working in my BA in Philosophy and Religion at SFSU: [url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p39.htm"]Zikkaron: Liturgical Remembrance and Sacred History[/url]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1232316' date='Apr 6 2007, 10:24 AM']THe word is anamnesis, meaning we are there now, the past is present [ going on] at this moment. It is the perfect word. Rememberance is terribly inadequate, but there is not equivalence in english.
here is a good explanation: [url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a78.htm"]http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a78.htm[/url][/quote]
The Greek word [i]anamnesis[/i] bears the same meaning as the Hebrew word [i]zikkaron[/i], and both words can be translated into English as "memory" or "remembrance," but the memory that is manifested through a liturgical celebration is not the memory of man, nor is it even the memory of the worshipping community [i]per se[/i]; instead, it is the eternal and everliving memory of God [cf. Matthias Scheeben, [u]The Mysteries of Christianity[/u], (London: B. Herder Book Company, 1946), page 509]. Now, the divine memory is manifested through the recitation of the inspired narrative and through the proper use of the sacred signs established for this very purpose (i.e., the bread and wine, etc.) by God Himself while He walked upon the earth as Man. That said, the liturgy of the Church manifests three distinct realities simultaneously: (1) the liturgy renders present a past event, i.e., the incarnation and paschal mystery of Christ; (2) it gives grace, i.e., divine energy, in the present moment; and (3) it anticipates the Parousia at the end of time, making it a living reality for the members of the worshipping community. In fact, this third element was manifested on Mt. Tabor when Christ was Transfigured in front of the three Apostles, because Christ Himself is the Kingdom of God realized in human form, and -- as a consequence -- all those who become members of His body, the Church, are living the reality of the Kingdom here and now, and not simply as something that will happen in the future. In other words, the life of divine grace ([i]energy[/i]) given in the sacraments is an eschatological reality in which time itself is transcended, so that the participants in the liturgy experience what was, is, and is to come in the mystery of Christ incarnate, and in the process all the members of the Church -- each one in his own way -- experience a foretaste of the divine eternity.

God bless,
Todd

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Todd, thanks for posting this. It's very helpful. I've long thought that the re-presentation of Calvary at Mass, while at the same time a presentation of Christ glorified, and at the same time not repeating history, could only be done if God permitted us, in a sense, to step into His perspective of time, since He always sees Christ crucified and glorified simultaneously. In other words, as I used in analogy with Budge earlier, the Mass is like a re-run of Calvary in that it is re-presented to us, and yet at the same time, we are able to step into that re-presentation and have an interaction with our Lord. I considered that the life of grace that gives us a share already in the divine nature must allow us to see with the eyes of divine faith, so that we may step up with God in the liturgy and see as He sees, since the Father, seeing all time at once, perceives the Son as crucified and glorified at once. Thus, history does not repeat itself (the crucifixion is historically over) and yet we are able to share in it, not by it's being extended through time, but by it's being eternally present to God.

Does that make sense? Any words you could offer me to correct or enlighten me on this?

I can't discuss it at length right now (I'm working on my thesis), but I'd appreciate any insight you could give me.

God bless,

Micah