Why Is The Eucharist Needed To Apply The Cross?

[Budge]

Why is the Eucharist needed to APPLY the cross?


When the Veil was Torn Jesus entered Himself the HOly of the Holies and[u] did the one time sacrifice for sin, which means no further offerings were necessary. [/u]This means all could enter into the precense of GOd through Jesus Christ, there are no more offerings that are needed and scripture says that. I see no scriptural evidence that the Eucharist is NEEDED to APPLY the sacrifice on the cross!
.[b]
"But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us" (Hebrews 9:11-12).[/b]



Why is a EUCHARIST necessary TO APPLY what JESUS did to INDIVIDUALS?

BUT *WE* must *APPLY that SACRIFICE?*


May I ask HOW we can, at our own will, DO anything, other than just accept the GIFT handed to us?

That is what the Jew did. Sin, offer up the sacrifice, sin again, another sacrifice required...

Over and over.

A never ending attempt to propitiate God.

Jesus came, and a REAL ONE TIME event happened, that day in Jerusalem, at the end of which, the Veil was RENT, from top to bottom, signifying that it was completed.

Jesus said "It is finished"

[b]
Why does it need APPLIED and where does it say in Scripture that we need to do "temple" offerings or "representations" to keep APPLYING it?[/b]

The tearing of the veil means ALL Men could now approach the throne of God with Jesus Christ as a mediator.

Lets remember the ongoing sacrifices of the Jews were to be ONLY for a time....[even todays Jews no longer do animal sacrifices]


Honestly I believe the Catholic Church Reconstituted the Temple system.

High priests, regular priests, daily sacrifices, sin offerings, holy days, seasons, heirarchy of clergy, incense, tabernacles, offerings, sin rites, holy of holies, the temple veil { the "rood screen" } were all tossed out by the earliest Christians..

And over time, all re-introduced with a "Christian veneer" to recreate what Jesus had fought against, ended, and forever put behind us.

In short, they are offering "Another Gospel"

[b] Ga 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you,[u] Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?[/u]

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh[/b]

[Budge]

bump

[Akalyte]

either someone kick budge off of phatmass..Or I will never come here again. Enough is enough.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote][b]1 Corinthians 3:9[/b]
"[b]For we are God's [u]coadjutors[/u][/b]: you are God's husbandry; you are God's building."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/53003.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/53003.htm[/url][/quote][quote][b]Philippians 2:12[/b]
"Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) [u]with fear and trembling work out your salvation[/u]."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/57002.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/57002.htm[/url][/quote]God works through us and therefore it is not a one time event but something that we constantly labor in fear and trembling.[quote][b]Mark 14:24[/b]
"And he said to them: This is my blood of the new testament, [u]which shall be shed for many[/u]."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/48014.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/48014.htm[/url][/quote][quote][b]Luke 22:20[/b]
"In like manner the chalice also, after he had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, [u]which shall be shed for you[/u]."
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49022.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/49022.htm[/url][/quote][quote][b]Matthew 26:28[/b]
"For this is my blood of the new testament, [u]which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins[/u]"
[url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47026.htm"]http://www.drbo.org/chapter/47026.htm[/url][/quote]Our Lord commanded the Apostles at the Last Supper to do this in “commemoration” of Him which is a literal reenactment. Our Lord at the Last Supper offered His Body and Blood for the salvation of souls and reparation for sins. If only the Sacrifice of the Cross can do this then our Lord contradicts Himself and further if it is not truly His Body and Blood then He commits sin offering something that cannot save us. So the only reasonable interpretation and understanding that has existed for thousands of years is that it is one singular perpetual sacrifice that is renewed upon our Altars.

Otherwise it would be very easy to argue that the Sacrifice of the Last Supper is indeed a sacrifice thus there are two, not one. But Protestants sometimes have a harder time understanding that in the Mass our Lord does not die or suffer as He did upon the Cross likewise in the Last Supper. Moreover, that our Lord wished that this Sacrifice be brought present to them through all time and space so all may witness His supreme and universal love for souls.

Our Blessed Lord said whoever does not eat His body and drink His blood shall have no life within them and similar to another verse it is written whoever does not abide in Him shall be cast into the fire; Holy Communion is the only way in the Scriptures that we know how to abide in Him.

Saint Paul seemingly off the cuff contradicts Himself in some verses commanding the people to work out their salvation then in others showing the people their foolishness in works. The reason for this is Saint Paul preached (rightfully so) that the works of the law that was only particular to the Jews was no longer the means of justification but rather the works in Christ that justify us and have merit.

[kujo]

"'I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread also which I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh.' The Jews therefore [began] to argue with one another, saying, 'How can this man give us [His] flesh to eat?' Jesus therefore said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me. This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate, and died, he who eats this bread shall live forever." John 6:48-58

"And when He had taken a cup [and] given thanks, He said, 'Take this and share it among yourselves; for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.' And when He had taken [some] bread [and] given thanks, He broke [it], and gave [it] to them, saying, 'This is My body which is given for you; [b]do this in remembrance of Me[/b].' And in the same way [He took] the cup after they had eaten, saying, 'This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.'" Luke 17-20

"For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes." 1 Corinthians 11:26

[Budge]

[quote]Our Lord at the Last Supper[u]offered His Body and Blood[/u] for the salvation of souls and reparation for sins.[/quote]

[b]This was done at the CROSS, not at the Last Supper.

Huge error there.
[/b]

[quote]Our Blessed Lord said whoever does not eat His body and drink His blood shall have no life within them and similar to another verse it is written whoever does not abide in Him shall be cast into the fire;[u]Holy Communion is the only way in the Scriptures that we know how to abide in Him.[/u][/quote]

Have you ever been taught about the Holy Spirit?

Where is HE in all of this?

Edited April 1, 2007 by Budge

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1225720' date='Apr 1 2007, 02:16 PM'][b]This was done at the CROSS, not at the Last Supper.

Huge error there.
[/b][/quote]Our Lord instituted the Sacrifice of the Mass at the Last Supper. It is misguided to try to separate the meaning of the Last Supper and Calvary. Our Lord Himself makes the connection. Quoting the Gospel of St. Matthew:[quote name='Matt 26:26-28']While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, "Take and eat; this is my body." Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.[/quote]Notice, Our Lord says, "this is my blood." It's not a symbol. His blood is truly present (just like it is at every Catholic Mass). It unites us to the Sacrifice of Calvary, because His Sacrifice isn't locked in the past (or the future, in the case of the Last Supper). It is an eternal Sacrifice. Telling His disciples to drink the "blood of the covenant" at the Last Supper makes the connection even more obvious.
[quote name='Budge' post='1225720' date='Apr 1 2007, 02:16 PM']Have you ever been taught about the Holy Spirit?

Where is HE in all of this?[/quote]Budge, you're starting to sound like a tritheist.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1225640' date='Apr 1 2007, 08:43 AM']May I ask HOW we can, at our own will, DO anything, other than just accept the GIFT handed to us?[/quote]
So you admit that we need to accept the gift? That's great. That's what the Eucharist is all about.

As for the rest of your post, you only go on with your typical misrepresentations of Catholicism. You know darn well that we do not believe that Jesus is offered again and again, but you tried to insinuate that we do believe that.

Please learn what we actually believe and stop lying about what we believe.

[Romans1513]

I don't usually reply to you, Budge, because other people seem to take care of it, and I'm no expert. But this one seems really easy:

Because Jesus told us to.

John 6
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

(KJV, just for you Budge )

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Budge' post='1225720' date='Apr 1 2007, 01:16 PM'][b]This was done at the CROSS, not at the Last Supper.

Huge error there.
Have you ever been taught about the Holy Spirit?

Where is HE in all of this?[/quote]Tell me a single verse that says we abide in Christ by means of the Holy Spirit? There are none... This is done by Holy Communion (which the Holy Ghost does act along with the Father). But Holy Communion is the only means.

The error here is that someone is denying what our Lord said...

[Budge]

[quote]
Our Lord instituted the Sacrifice of the Mass at the Last Supper. It is misguided to try to separate the meaning of the Last Supper and Calvary. Our Lord Himself makes the connection. Quoting the Gospel of St. Matthew:[/quote]No, Jesus was speaking of going to the cross and of HIS SACRIFICE THERE. The Lord's Supper was instituted for its rememberance. Against you are changing the subject, WHY IS THE EUCHARIST NEEDED TO APPLY THE CROSS? was the original question.

You cant ignore the sacrifice on the cross, and say well Jesus instituted ANOTHER SACRIFICE before going to the cross, Hebrews makes that quite plain.

Hbr 10:10 [b]By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].[/b]
T
Hbr 10:11 ¶ [u][b]And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:[/b][/u]

Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[quote]
Notice, Our Lord says, "this is my blood." It's not a symbol. His blood is truly present (just like it is at every Catholic Mass).[/quote]

No His Blood was poured out on the cross, not poured into a cup before He went to the cross.

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;

1Pe 1:19 [b]But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:[/b]


[quote]


It unites us to the Sacrifice of Calvary, because His Sacrifice isn't locked in the past (or the future, in the case of the Last Supper). It is an eternal Sacrifice.[/quote]Christ is NOT STILL SACRIFICING, His work on the CROSS was FINISHED and He said IT IS FINISHED, or really in the GREEK--DEBT PAID IN FULL

teleo, tel-eh'-o; from G5056; meaning "to end", i.e. "complete, execute, conclude, discharge a debt:--accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform." [Strong's Concordance, reported in Holman Bible Dictionary].

This doesnt mean KEEP PAYING FOR ETERNITY!

The Catholic Church by teaching the above keeps Jesus Christ on the cross forever.

Hbr 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



[quote]Budge, you're starting to sound like a tritheist.[/quote]

So mention of the Holy Spirit is wrong to you?


[quote]
So you admit that we need to accept the gift? That's great. That's what the Eucharist is all about. smile.gif[/quote]No it is not.

Christians recieve Christ via Faith, salvation via FAITH, one time,

Catholics have to go back for repeated "fill-ups" week after week.
[quote]
As for the rest of your post, you only go on with your typical misrepresentations of Catholicism. You know darn well that we do not believe that Jesus is offered again and again, but you tried to insinuate that we do believe that.[/quote]

When Catholics tell me that the cross is "outside time and space" and is NOT finished contrary to what Jesus said, then essentially Jesus is being offered again and again..>Else why the necessity for THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS.

No one has answered the main question of this thread either...
Jesus does not mean carnal eating, but spiritual eating. I have posted that one thread I did about where in the OT, the idea of EATING GODS WORD {ingesting it inside of you spiritually} is repeated over and over. This is not based on CARNAL eating, Jesus preached against CARNALeating when he said this.

And what happens to the Catholic Eucharist, when someone EATS IT?
[b]
Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?[/b]
[quote]
[u][b]Tell me a single verse that says we abide in Christ by means of the Holy Spirit?[/u] There are none... This is done by Holy Communion (which the Holy Ghost does act along with the Father). But Holy Communion is the only means[/b].[/quote]

Oh wow, I can tell you a verse!

Its right in the Bible.
[b]
Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and [u]he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;[/u][/b]
[b]
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.[/b]

I believe that the Catholic Eucharist, denies the sufficiency of the cross, denies the true gospel where Jesus paid the debt in FULL, denies what it means to come to salvation in FAITH rather then via sacrament and falsely teaches that their "bloodless sacrifice" can add anything to the work Christ did on the cross.

It also has the interesting effect of denying the place of the Holy Spirit in the Christian's life because if you can receive God's grace via the [mod]Most Holy Eucharist -Aloysius[/mod], what role does the Holy Spirit have to play in your life?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1226134' date='Apr 1 2007, 04:52 PM']No it is not.

Christians recieve Christ via Faith, salvation via FAITH, one time,

Catholics have to go back for repeated "fill-ups" week after week.[/quote]

That's entirely inaccurate. It's more like you're not completely filled once, because you still are unwilling to accept all the grace for a fill-up at once, so you come back repeatedly, having the remaining gaps filled in bit by bit. Even looking at it from the perspective of faith alone, you have to admit that conversion doesn't happen all at once. Remember that belief and unbelief can go exist ("Lord, I believe, help my unbelief!") and that faith develops in stages (Mark 8:22-26). The more we allow God to work in us for conversion and open us to His graces, the more His graces can fill us. In the Eucharist, we who believe receive Christ, and we are conformed to His Body, and His salvation dwells in us, as we are joined to Him. We receive again and again not to be filled up again and again, but to make a consistent effort to be converted.

[quote]When Catholics tell me that the cross is "outside time and space" and is NOT finished contrary to what Jesus said, then essentially Jesus is being offered again and again..>Else why the necessity for THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS.[/quote]

Of course it's finished. The Church teaches that the Crucifixion happened once and for all. Any Catholic telling you otherwise is confused.

[Budge]

Let me ask you it this way..

Is the CRUCIFIXITION over with?

{it is, so when Catholics say all this is happening outside of space and time--TWIGHLIGHT ZONE THEME MUSIC HERE, it really is not}

[Budge]

T[quote]hat's entirely inaccurate. It's more like you're not completely filled once, because you still are unwilling to accept all the grace for a fill-up at once, so you come back repeatedly, having the remaining gaps filled in bit by bit. Even looking at it from the perspective of faith alone, you have to admit that conversion doesn't happen all at once. Remember that belief and unbelief can go exist ("Lord, I believe, help my unbelief!") and that faith develops in stages (Mark 8:22-26). The more we allow God to work in us for conversion and open us to His graces, the more His graces can fill us. In the Eucharist, we who believe receive Christ, and we are conformed to His Body, and His salvation dwells in us, as we are joined to Him. We receive again and again not to be filled up again and again, but to make a consistent effort to be converted.[/quote]

One either has the Holy Spirit indwelling and are an adopted child of God or they are not.

its not a half way situation.

One can be seeking God and on the way to salvation and God does work on the Christian--process of santification.

But dont get justification and santification mixed up.

You are either born again or you are not.

You either are a Christian with the Holy Spirit indwelling or you are not.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1226169' date='Apr 1 2007, 05:07 PM']Let me ask you it this way..

Is the CRUCIFIXITION over with?

{it is, so when Catholics say all this is happening outside of space and time--TWIGHLIGHT ZONE THEME MUSIC HERE, it really is not}[/quote]
Yes, the Crucifixion is over with. It is not repeated at Mass. However, that one, completed event is made present to us at Mass. It has nothing to do with the Crucifixion being extended or repeated. Christ's suffering is not extended. He died once on the Cross. If you wanted to think of it conceptually, it's far more similar to saying that we are brought back in time than saying that the Passion is extended.

Edit: to clarify, that concept also fails to grasp it, but it's closer.