Who Really Lied To Start The War In Iraq?

[M.SIGGA]

no one forgot about Osama. if we had not gone to war in Iraq do you really believe we would've found him by now? me neither...

i think the weapons existed on paper, the scientists were gettin a lot of money for tellin him they had produced WMD's... i believe it was the prudent decision given the paper evidence of WMD's...

ok I promise to get out of this debate, but it's calling me!

it supposedly wasn't only on paper; remember Colin Powell's press conference when he pointed out the weapons on maps, and they turned out to be empty silos and other obstructions when they got into Iraq.

Also the State of the Union address that lead Americans to believe the locations were definite and there were exact numbers of what kinds of weapons Sadaam was in possession of and how they were aimed at us and our allies.

As of yesterday, the US weapon's inspector has returned to the United States completely empty handed. If these supposed weapons ever existed they will probably surface when a plow accidentally hits one or a terrorist uses one in another attack.

I don't like the President at all, but if the existence of the possibly fabricated weapons really exist I hope Bush succeeds in finding them.

[jjm]

I for one supported the war at first. I was all gung-ho about it.

But now, its like another vietnam, we shouldnt be there. Were loosing more soldiers now than we did when the war was happening.

NOW come to find out there was really never any WMD's there.

But what really, really, really, really, really really really really angers me...

WHAT HAPPEN TO OSAMA BIN LADEN?? You know, the guy who was repsonsible for taking down the towers? The guy who started this War on Terror in the first place...

It didnt make a bit of since to me that after the Terror Attack on us, and finding out it was Osama's fault..that we would go attack Sadam instead.

After seeing that take place it made more sense that Bush used this as an excuse to get rid of Sadam, for personal reasons. Yes he was a threat not only to his own people, but to the world..BUT, Osama Bin Laden is far more dangerous than Sadam could hope for.

Ok, thats my dolla fity

"we shouldn't be there"

I think the worst thing that could happen to that (Iraq) country right about now would be for the USA to decide to cut there losses and just head home. That would be hugely irresponsible. I know it is not that simple and that there are many soldiers dying in Iraq, even though the war is over, but their presence is hopefully aiding the reconstruction and preventing the country from lapseing into a chaos from which could rise another ruler who may not have the same moustache but would be verry similar to Sadam.

Is it right to assume Iraqis want our culture, businesses, and architecture in there cities? in there country? How can you ever know what ideals the people rebuilding and "guiding" Iraqis have in there heart? One would like to be able to fulheartedly believe and trust in ones countrymen and neighbors but just looking at your community is enough to tell you it is wise to ask questions.

Who opts to see Saddam executed? Who are we to throw the first stone? What should happen to him? Sould we mount his head on the whitehouse wall? should he be incarcerated for the rest of his life? should we rinse our hands and hand him over to the Shiites that he oppressed and who shout for his blood? this is a difficult question. Can we be expected to love him and to look for his inherint dignity? (please note that the headmounting is not to be taken as a serious suggestion. If I have offended you you have my appologies)

What responsibility do our countries have to these people. Would it be just for my country to say that we didn't aggree whith the necessity of the war and the way in which the war was instigated (biapasing UN) and therefore have no responsibility to the Iraqi nation. Is it right for many in the USA expect that Canada should agree with them and better help them out when they want help.

Was it right for the administration to play upon post 911 fears to try and garner support for the destruction of the Iraqi regime? Does any fear of a real or apparent danger give any country the right to take a human life? Am I being anti-something by asking questions?

Well I think I'm done ranting for the day.

-Cheers

Jim

[Aloysius]

ok I promise to get out of this debate, but it's calling me!

it supposedly wasn't only on paper; remember Colin Powell's press conference when he pointed out the weapons on maps, and they turned out to be empty silos and other obstructions when they got into Iraq.

Also the State of the Union address that lead Americans to believe the locations were definite and there were exact numbers of what kinds of weapons Sadaam was in possession of and how they were aimed at us and our allies.

As of yesterday, the US weapon's inspector has returned to the United States completely empty handed. If these supposed weapons ever existed they will probably surface when a plow accidentally hits one or a terrorist uses one in another attack.

I don't like the President at all, but if the existence of the possibly fabricated weapons really exist I hope Bush succeeds in finding them.

it existed on paper,, the location was written, the amount was written, it was all well-documented to make saddam fat and happy. the scientists were commisioned to work on WMD's because saddam wanted them, if they reported to saddam that there were just weapons made without specifying nums or locations, how would saddam have believed them? :huh:

[M.SIGGA]

it existed on paper,, the location was written, the amount was written, it was all well-documented to make saddam fat and happy. the scientists were commisioned to work on WMD's because saddam wanted them, if they reported to saddam that there were just weapons made without specifying nums or locations, how would saddam have believed them?

Ok I'm seriously not wanting to debate, but it keeps calling me in, so I'll debate this out again.

Your theory isn't complete because there were weapons at some point in time because they transfered from the United States to Iraq, which Sadaam used on his own people. Despite the weapons program the scientists might have lied about there are still these unaccounted weapons Sadaam was in possession of at some point in time, which were not accounted for by U.N. weapons inspectors before the war. Sadaam simply said 'they were gone' which we didn't believe, but it turns out he might very well have sold them off or buried them somewhere.

THis whole weapon situation is really messed up and confusing b/c the U.S. is so intertwined in selling Sadaam weapons and all the parts to make the weapons. So there is some proof that Sadaam might have had weapons at the time we recently invaded Iraq. Whether or not he definitely had them is the mystery. The only thing we are positive about now is that the stats, numbers, and locations of those supposed weapons that the U.S. was given was completely bogus, therefore what the President told the American people was bogus too.

[thicke]

Osama? According to the military, he's as good as in the bag!

[M.SIGGA]

Osama? According to the military, he's as good as in the bag!

wonderful. last I heard the latest U.S. intelligence is comming from Arab T.V. b/c while America can't find him Al Jezira gets an interview every other week :lol:

[Paladin D]

According to Kim Clement (http://kimclement.com/) we should be capturing Osama sometime before (or on) Easter. If it does come true... I'm gonna be freaked. :mellow:

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]no one forgot about Osama. if we had not gone to war in Iraq do you really believe we would've found him by now? me neither...[/quote]

We would have had a higher chance of it. Iraq has eaten up a lot of soldiers and resources that could have been put to use in tracking bin Laden down. Way back in the dim mists of time, when all this started, certain elements in the government (ably assisted by the tabloid press) were claiming a connection between bin Laden and Hussein. I read about it in the [i]Daily Express[/i] (which was rabidly pro-war at first and then made an abrupt about-face when the war went pear-shaped and it saw an opportunity to discredit the Labour Party). No one remembers that lie any more. It is my belief that Bush just wanted an excuse to go into Iraq. Saddam Hussein was the chip on the family shoulder.

"This above all is the greatest treason: to do the right thing for the wrong reason." - T.S. Eliot.

[RezaMikhaeil]

Osama: Osama was forgotten about, as the number of troops in Afghanistan are having trouble keeping the peace amongst the drug lords [etc] let alone find Osama. If I were to put it into laymens terms: How the hell are you going to search every cave, every bunker, when you constantly being shot at by private militias that got more combatants then your army is? The President of Afghanistan said several months ago on public television that the drug lords got much more combatants then he does... US Troops don't even have enough troops to keep the Taliban in the south from reforming every few months, let alone find the time to search for that guy named Osama Bin Laden.

What led to going to war: Bush relied heavily on Chalabi and other supposed Exiled Iraqi citizens, that wanted to seize power for themselves after the invasion. The US and CIA gave Chalabi and others mass amounts of money, private luxury cars, etc. for false evidence that he provided. They should have known that his "intelligence" was severely lacking, as they asked him for evidence previous times and he severely misled them then also... Colin Powell was just doing what he was told, he and Condi Rice had publically said before 9-11 that they knew as a fact that Saddam hadn't gained the capability to gain arms, that he was unable to wage war, and that they [their administration] had done a good job keeping weapons from him, then later went back on that statement after 9-11.

Bottom Line: Mr. Bush should have had enough knowledge to know that his sources were unreliable.

Reza

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1257761' date='Apr 27 2007, 04:38 AM']"This above all is the greatest treason: to do the right thing for the wrong reason." - T.S. Eliot.[/quote]
you have just made my morning complete ... nothing makes me happier than a little T.S. Eliot. :

[The Joey-O]

[quote name='M.SIGGA' post='105950' date='Jan 27 2004, 01:36 AM']ok I'm not getting into this debate, but Bush had crappy unreliable intelligence (from the British, vengeful Iraqi exiles, and the CIA) mixed with actual records that Sadaam actually had weapons in the late 80s and early 90s he bought from America. So that is also a "possible" and important senario that isn't one of your poll picks.[/quote]

From what I understand, there was a mountain of evidence from our intelligence services. And, calling American or Brittish intelligence crappy is absurd. There is no better intelligence out there. Of course its not perfect. And, unfortunately, it's manipulatable. Personally, I suspect Cheney. My understanding of President Bush leads me to believe that he is neither sadistic enough nor intelligent enough to orchestrate a systematic manipulation of Brittish and American intelligence. Cheney (and maybe Karl Rove) both had the connections (and total the lack of a soul) to pull something like this off. Is it possible that the various intelligence services of America and the UK simultaneously experienced a significant quality shortage in the middle east? Yes, but it's not likely. What's more likely is what there's proof of. That the Bush administration reorganized the CIA and other intelligence agencies with people who are not just friendly to the Bush Administration but with people who are conspiculously contraversial for those positions. Also, there is significant evidence that there was personal tampering on the part of Cheney and/or Bush (my bet's on Cheney) in intelligence investigations.

Here's what I think: I think Cheney orchestrated the whole event for a whole myriad of reasons. Halliburton just moved its headquarters out to the middle east. I can't help but suspect that the Iraq situation has something to do with the move. I don't believe this was about getting Iraq's oil. I'm not sure what all the motivation is, but perhaps distraction is a big part of it all.

Anywho. That's my two cents.

[musturde]

Not to spark with anybody but wasn't it the Intelligence who screwed up, not Bush? I think Bush, with his given information, did the right thing but now looking back at hindsight, it's was a mistake. However, I would bet that another president would have done the same thing in his place.

Also, Osama Bin Laden is in my opinion no where near being caught. He's safe somewhere in the Middle East (many speculate Pakistan). Going in there would be suicide because of the large amount of militants in the area he's hiding. Even If he was just hiding in Afghanistan, Afghanistan is a big country, it's not that easy to search through every cave especially when he's well guarded.

[dairygirl4u2c]

this is just my impression when we went to war. i think bush either lied or stretched the truth saying there was a connection between iraq and al queda. if you read his state of the union address from back then you will see that. cheny says it was the media who was making a connectino and they've always been clear no connection, but i think the state of hte union and other things made him out to say there was a connection.

as for weopons etc, i believe bush had good reasons based on all that. i think the husseins men probably lied etc. my only point is that the white house isn't completely off scott free bc of it. (look at richard clark and how they were really pushing to say there was a connection when there was not, and how clark got fired for it...)

[jesussaves]

well, i should say he had sufficient reasons. i don't think the evidence was looked at very critically, as indicated at the end of this article.
[url="http://news.brisbanetimes.com.au/bush-to-democrats-do-not-test-my-will-on-iraq/20072928-9yq.html"]http://news.brisbanetimes.com.au/bush-to-d...072928-9yq.html[/url]

that they were so intent on linking iraq with al queda was probably less on wanting to find a reason the american's would buy to get iraq because of their weopons, and more about they seem to maybe have weopons but we're not gonna worry about it too much as they are bad people. and might have weopons soon.
and oil and other things too, it's all a big picture.

Edited April 28, 2007 by jesussaves

[jckinsman]

Hey !!!!! Let's not forget! 9/11 is not a number, It was a horrible day, I sat glued to the TV wondering when and where the next plane was going to hit. I was scared! No one who who's human wasn't! Remember Bush's speech??? He said if you were a terrorist, we were coming after you end of the story.(No not in those words) I don't think he was thinking, "Wow, here's a time to avenge my familys name"or "Hey let's go steal oil, now's our chance" (I could have alot of fun right now, but I will refrain!) No way, No matter what the liberal media's selling. I'm not buying it. Do I agree with the war? I will always be saddened by it. I do think that Bush felt threatened. After seeing what he did on that day. He was going to do what it took to bring them ALL down. But we as americans, want what we want, huh? We want it now. *mind drifts away to a scence in willy wonka and the chocolate factory,when the bratty spoiled girl enters the golden egg room and sing her song* Bush knew it was going to take time. Years! Come on people, Look what he's dealing with? Pull out now, and we will regret it! Do you realize what would happen? Can you grasp the whole picture globally????? YIKKES! The truth is I think we all would like to see it end. I think even Bush would agree. Can he really do that though? So going back to the question, Do you think Bush knew? I think he knew alot more then the public and media did (AS IT SHOULD BE) and I think he did what he needed to do, givin' the circumstance and the times. Never was a war waged so carefully. How quickly we forget! You think Bush wanted a war? I think you are nuts! Remember who started it............all of us on earth (religon,politics,$,your sister) Remember WHO will finish it! ..................pray for peace! JC

Edited April 29, 2007 by jckinsman