What To Do With Troops In Iraq

[KnightofChrist]

Again you make claims you do not know, smell all you wish, it proves nothing, and you know nothing. You imply others are lairs, and you would not believe the President if he stood by the current evidence on WMDs.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1228191' date='Apr 3 2007, 01:37 AM']Again you make claims you do not know, smell all you wish, it proves nothing, and you know nothing.

[b]Having been around persians my whole life, having actual video footage from family members and close family friends that have taken pilgrimages to Iraq, its not difficult to know the difference between Iraqi and non-Iraq [as the executive producer at A.J. also pointed out].[/b]

You imply others are lairs, and you would not believe the President if he stood by the current evidence on WMDs.

[b]No, I imply that you and your sources are liars, or President Bush is a liar, not both and as I'd said previously, if Mr. Bush stood on a platform and said that there was WMD and had the evidence to prove it, I'd believe him [which is why I dont believe you right now]. See I don't have a personal agenda like you, I don't belong to a particular political party and I speak for myself and think my own thoughts. انا ايضا جندى سابق , while you are not.[/b][/quote]

[Anomaly]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1227980' date='Apr 3 2007, 12:17 AM']So tell me where in Mosul [it's quite a large area]. Tell me what kind of people, are you from a Muslim family? If Catholic, what kind of Catholic? The reason that I'm asking these questions is that I highly doubt you, as a matter of fact I severely doubt you, because mosul is home to Kurds and Syriac Orthodox Christians.

Note: There are Roman Catholics there, but they don't go by "Roman Catholics" but have a specific name. If you're of them, you'll know what that name is.

I doubt you based upon your past responses, etc. If anyone should know about a civil war, it's a Christian that's supposedly from Mosul [where the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch is from, and the Syriac Monestary is from].

Reza[/quote]
You are quite the pleasant personality, aren't you?
The ones that are still there are Chadean Catholic or non-practicing anything. There was family already here that are Roman Catholic and they mostly become Roman Catholic to adapt to the culture and for convenience. I don't know which areas of the cities they live in specifically, they are in-laws to my sister. The parents came over here in the 60's, the kids are 1st generation American born. They still have extensive family there, though some were trying to emigrate or escape. The last cousin to get out of Iran, was in July of 2001, right before 9-11.

Their attitude is that generally Americans are arrogant, weak-willed, and rascist because Americans are more concerned with US politics and Iran is just a political pawn. They find it offensive that Americans have the attitude that Iraqi's are barbarians and that they can't govern themselves and need/deserve/are destined to be ruled by some sort of dictator, religious fanatics, or various 'war-lords'. They believe most Americans are stupid and liars and think it's hypocritical the way the American media depicts Iraqi leaders as stupid and liars who can't or won't establish a government.
If it was about OIL, the US would not be there half-ass and would have protected the oil fields and transport systems better and not even consider pulling out anytime soon. The US had no long term plans for Iraq.
If it was about freeing the Iraqi people from Sadaam, more information about the oppression they suffered under during the economic sanctions and the brutality Sadaam used to stay in power.
They do believe the US went in only because they believed Sadaam had built up the military again and actually was building WMD.
If you are old enough and paid attention before the war and 9-11, Sadaam had kicked out the UN inspectors, was building 'palace complexes', had been under oil for food economic sanctions for years but was siphoning money off for 'complexes', and nobody really knew if he had WMD or not, though suspected at the least, soon would.
They feel it was racist that the US pulled out Iraq in the first Gulf War and that the US did whatever the Saudis and other oil money wanted, which is why the Iraqi people and Kurds were abandoned.
They feel the US has a very strong military that can do what it wants, but the American people are shallow, soft, gutless, selfish, without morals, stupid, and believe whatever the news and politicians tell them. They think most Americans have no moral principles which is why the Iraqi war is where it's at.
They find the 'body count' the media goes on about (3,500 US) with no comment about how many Iraqi's die each month. They find it racist that no attention is paid to the innocent Iraqi's that are constantly murdered by foriegn insurgents and Iraqis seeking power and Muslim extremists that target the Iraqi's trying to work for the new government, join the police, join the military, despite the spies, double agents, etc., as if the Iraqi people are just a bunch of stupid cattle.

They've pretty much have had this attitude since the Gulf War, and it used to really bug me. The majority of my family are no more than 2nd generation American born, so we tend to have an idealistic picture of America because so many of our family sacrificed much to escape to here. One of my friends, who was a Vietnamese refugee after the Fall puts it rather well I think. In America, we're free to be as stupid and lazy as we want and get away with it. That's a good thing, because it allows people like him to come here with no education, not speaking the language, come here and become successful in a few years. That is so true.


Edit to add:
I pretty much agree with them now. Just the course of discussion in these threads gives proof to many of their opinions. The US is more concerned with their deaths and care little to nothing about Iraqi deaths unless one side can use it as political ammo against the other. Americans only point out Iraqi deaths that the US accidently cause in freeing the COUNTRY as an excuse to pull out and not do the right thing. Nobody every talkes about who else is killing Iraqi's in Iraq.
Regardless of why we went into Iraq (in my opinion it was for 2 things, political gain and we really thought Sadaam was preparing for pre-emptive war) we went in, toppled the Iraq government, and mis-judged what condition Iraq would be in after we took Sadaam out. Now that Iraq is screwed up, what should the US do?
I believe that the US has morally obligated themselves to stay and sacrifice to make things as right as possible in Iraq. I'm not surprised that most Americans (including the posters here at phatmass) fail to look at the situation at hand and only worry about who is/was morally to blame that started it. Though, I'd like to point out, the Catholic Church isn't doing much better. All the Bishops do is quote what JP-II said before the war, and discuss very little what the moral obligations are now.

Edited April 3, 2007 by Anomaly

[dairygirl4u2c]

i like how iron monk thinks anyone who disagrees with him and is a catholic obviously must be ignorant of history and are incapable of reason. how things never change with conservatives who can only view the world but simplistically.

[ironmonk]

Anomoly,
I really don't think the problem is "Americans" but the problem is the way the media portrays the minority as the majority.


Dairy,
I only saw your attempt at an attack without any facts because I wasn't logged in... I won't make the mistake again. You don't even know what the word means. I am not conservative. I am on the right because I am Catholic. You make a stab and cannot back it up. You prove yourself in the wrong, and I thank you for that.


I'm not going to bicker over nonsense with those not willing to put forth the effort with an open mind to find the truth, they are close minded and nothing we type will change their opinion.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[KnightofChrist]

Who I am would not change who my family and loved ones are. You still know nothing.



You still imply Bush was a lier, but now his not. The Bush Administration says 1.77 tons of enriched uranium has been found in Iraq. Anyway I'm not going to "bicker over nonsense" anymore, really this time I swears.


Bahbye,
KoC

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1228328' date='Apr 3 2007, 09:20 AM']Who I am would not change who my family and loved ones are. You still know nothing.

[b]Sure I do and you're not hiding nothing LOL[/b]

You still imply Bush was a lier, but now his not. The Bush Administration says 1.77 tons of enriched uranium has been found in Iraq. Anyway I'm not going to "bicker over nonsense" anymore, really this time I swears.

[b]That's the problem, I never said Bush is a Liar, I said you and your sources are [/b]
Bahbye,
KoC[/quote]

Edited April 3, 2007 by RezaLemmyng

[Budge]

Reza,

This is Catholic written, I think Lee Penn though I certainly disagree with him on Catholicism has many things right.

[url="http://www.scp-inc.org/publications/journals/J2704/"]http://www.scp-inc.org/publications/journals/J2704/[/url]

[RezaMikhaeil]

Interesting article, thanks for sharing.

[ironmonk]

hmmmm....

[quote]forced to stand or kneel for extended periods, thrown against walls, deprived of sleep by 24-hour light, deprived of pain medication for wounds, and otherwise subjected to "stress and duress.[/quote]

Discomfortable yes, torture... [b][u]not even close[/u][/b].

Anyone who states those discomfort techniques resemble communist and terrorist techniques used show that they lack a great deal of knowledge and are very naive to the world.

Want to learn about torture, talk to the Iraqis. They know torture by the hands of Saddam and his men.

Let's start with a garden hose slowly inserted and yanked out to disembowel them. Hey, prisons are full, let's not build new ones, just kill everyone and release two people to tell others the horror they've seen... sounds pretty bad eh? That's what Saddam did. Let's talk about how he would force husbands to watch their wives raped.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein's_Iraq"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_...sein's_Iraq[/url]


Whoever thinks standing and kneeling for extended periods of time, shoved against walls and sleep depervation is torture either has no clue what torture is or is one incrediblly weak panzy. Time to grow up and wise up. To say that these discomforts are torture is an insult to the innocent lives that have experienced real torture. This Penn guy is a kook. His marksist views are obvious... Catholic - maybe in name only - if at all. SCP is in gross error and ignorance when it comes to the Christian faith, if their faith is built on poor research that is easily corrected with a little study, then very little they have can be trusted without double checking everything they claim.

[ironmonk]

One more thing... Saddam's men loved to tape their evils... [url="http://fdd.typepad.com/fdd/2006/01/alert_saddams_c.html"]http://fdd.typepad.com/fdd/2006/01/alert_saddams_c.html[/url]

[musturde]

I'm confused. has this topic been off the wall or is it just me? I think there definitely needs more than just three options for this poll. The main reason would be because we can't really win from this point. Most people who are of Middle Eastern descent or know much about politics in Iraq would tell you that Iraq is gunna end up in a Civil War. Now how long our troops can keep stability within the country before this happens is another question. It kind of shocks me how most liberals(who I'm not trying to bash) are all for sending the troops home as fast as possible. I mean some of them know Iraq will be in shambles right when we leave but they really don't care. This is just cruel to me. I think any talks about the past intentons really serve no purpose now. The damage is done and we can look through hindsight and complain about it all we want, it doesn't exactly affect whether we keep our troops in or not.

Thats just my 6 cents.

Edited April 4, 2007 by musturde

[Red Knight]

Reza,

After reading your posts, I must say, I have zero respect for your opinions.

I also must say that prying into the personal lives of those on this board is simply uncalled for.

Don't accuse people of not knowing what they are talking about simply because you disagree.

I know someone, that I trust far more than ANY politician, that saw, with THEIR OWN EYES, WMD in Iraq. Whether or not anybody further up their chain of command did anything with the report is beyond the scope. You completely disregarded my earlier post and brushed it aside as tripe, because it wasn't from the President. Whoop dee friggin doo! Do you believe everything a politician says, or only what you want too for your personal gain?

So you have family over there? Does that make you an expert?

I noticed you threw allot of terms around interchangeably that aren't. For example, Persian and Iraqi. Roughly 75-80 percent of Iraqi's are Arab, Persian are NOT. In fact, fewer than 5% of Iraqi's are "Other", which includes Turk men and Persians, etc. Now, to add to that, roughly 3% of Iranians are Arab. Based solely on numbers, that means approximately 2 million Iranians are Arabs and less than 1 million Iraqi's are Persian. So, best case, 3 million people in Iraq and Iran combined could share direct relation based on ethnic group alone. That is only 3% of the total combined population of 95.5 million people.

Why all the numbers? To illustrate that you assumed those of us on the board are too stupid or ignorant to realize that not everybody with 'olive' skin is the same. You use stereotypes to further your agenda, how quaint.

Your arrogance and condescension is palpable and disgusting.

All are wrong but you and those you can convince.

I KNOW there is an Insurgency in Iraq.

I KNOW Iraq is NOT in a civil war.

I KNOW that there were and probably still are WMD in Iraq.

Will I ever convince you?

I doubt it.

[Guest T-Bone]

[quote]After reading your posts, I must say, I have zero respect for your opinions.[/quote]



Somebody had to say it.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Red Knight' post='1229259' date='Apr 3 2007, 11:47 PM']Reza,

After reading your posts, I must say, I have zero respect for your opinions.

[b]I don't really care what you think of me, I'm a former soldier that won't have false claims disrespecting the military or the commander and chief's administration with false claims. You don't like me, I don't like you, who cares.[/b]

I also must say that prying into the personal lives of those on this board is simply uncalled for.

[b]If someone claims to be a soldier or whatever else and it doesn't check out, I'm going to say something about it. I believe in freedom of speech and if someone's going to open their mouth about the armed forces, in the name of armed forces that I know as a fact, as a soldier isn't true, I'm going to say something, end of story.[/b]

Don't accuse people of not knowing what they are talking about simply because you disagree.

[b]See that's not what it's about, it's about knowing based upon their statements that don't check out.[/b]

I know someone, that I trust far more than ANY politician, that saw, with THEIR OWN EYES, WMD in Iraq. Whether or not anybody further up their chain of command did anything with the report is beyond the scope.

[b]Now you're talking more conspiracy theoryish then Michael Moore or that film "loose change", that's a ridiculous claim, to say that some random soldier knows about it but the commander and cheif doesn't. Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff?[/b]

You completely disregarded my earlier post and brushed it aside as tripe, because it wasn't from the President. Whoop dee friggin doo! Do you believe everything a politician says, or only what you want too for your personal gain?

[b]I trust that the commander and chief would use that evidence to resurrect his presidency if WMD were found. Why would Mr. Bush allow his admin to go down negatively in the publics eyes, when he has the opportunity to change that perspective? Why would he not reveal the very element that could help him? That's a ridiculous and pointless claim. I read your previous post, I just didn't give it the time of day just like I don't give Mr. Moore the time of day.[/b]

So you have family over there? Does that make you an expert?

[b]In regards to Sunni/Shiite civil war, it gives me the credentials to speak about it. It's not from some random media source, but from the horses mouth.[/b]

I noticed you threw allot of terms around interchangeably that aren't. For example, Persian and Iraqi. Roughly 75-80 percent of Iraqi's are Arab, Persian are NOT.

[b]See this is ridiculous claim. The Shiites are not Arab, they're Persian. Iran is the persian capitol of the world. Most shiites in Iraq have relatives in Iran. If you think that Shiites in Iraq, are arab then you've got another thing comming, unless of course you're one of those people that believe most people in Iran are Arabs.[/b]

In fact, fewer than 5% of Iraqi's are "Other", which includes Turk men and Persians, etc. Now, to add to that, roughly 3% of Iranians are Arab.

[b]This isn't true, how could the Shiites be the largest demographic in Iraq, be Arab and have relatives in Iran that are persian? That makes no sense. Every single Shiite in Iraq was born in Iran. Shiite are 60% of the population in Iraq.[/b]

Based solely on numbers, that means approximately 2 million Iranians are Arabs and less than 1 million Iraqi's are Persian. So, best case, 3 million people in Iraq and Iran combined could share direct relation based on ethnic group alone. That is only 3% of the total combined population of 95.5 million people.

[b]No the truth is that only 2% of Iranians are Arab, that is 140,000 people. In regards to your demographics, I'm sure that you're getting them from some online source so in with that, I'm going to say "Some argue that the 2003 Iraq Census shows that Sunnis were a slight majority"[/b]

Why all the numbers? To illustrate that you assumed those of us on the board are too stupid or ignorant to realize that not everybody with 'olive' skin is the same. You use stereotypes to further your agenda, how quaint.

[b]No, rather I don't trust your sources, simple and plain and having direct contact with the culture, I know that your book can't teach you what tradition has proven.[/b]

Your arrogance and condescension is palpable and disgusting.

[b]No what's disgusting is that you assume that you know more then the commander and chief and those that have actually been in the military and served their country.[/b]

All are wrong but you and those you can convince.

[b]No actually, it's quite the opposite. A grip of people [if you go back and read] have actually taken similiar views to mine, and they were serverely attacked. See the truth is that I could give you links to 2,000 different articles that proved my point from a bias perspective [as KOC has], but I'm not interested in a propaganda war, I'm interested in the truth.[/b]

I KNOW there is an Insurgency in Iraq.

[b]Really? Have you seen it with your own eyes?[/b]

I KNOW Iraq is NOT in a civil war.

[b]Sunnis and Shiites killing each other in the middle and southern regions, Syriac Orthodox being brutally murdered by Kurds in the North. Sunnis attacking Kurds from time to time, if that isn't a civil war, then I don't know what is. I'd also like to reflect back, that the head general in Iraq, General Abizaid has even said that it's a civil war. Sectarian violence is civil and it's turned into a war, C-I-V-I-L-W-A-R, can we spell it? When sunni women, have to worry about their husbands being dragged out of their homes for being sunni, when shia have to take great risks to go on their pilgrimages, man that's definately a civil war. As I'd heard it before, "if it spells like a duck, walks like a duck, acts like a duck... it's usually a duck and definately not a giraff.[/b]

I KNOW that there were and probably still are WMD in Iraq.

[b]You know huh? Man, you should run for president, cause you obviously know more then those that have served in Iraq, more then the President of the United States, more then the head general in Iraq, man you got credentials. Then once you get into power, you can lead the troops right to the spot and scream it to the world like a 14 year old girl "YEAH FELLAS RIGHT THERE IS WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, I TOLD YOU THAT IT WAS HERE"[/b]

Will I ever convince you?

[b]Oh, can't you tell... I'm convinced, I'm convinced! Carol Anne don't go into the light [/b]
I doubt it.[/quote]

Edited April 4, 2007 by RezaLemmyng