What To Do With Troops In Iraq

[Guest T-Bone]

Three options.

Edited March 31, 2007 by T-Bone

[xTrishaxLynnx]

We're already there. Why not finish it?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='xTrishaxLynnx' post='1223543' date='Mar 30 2007, 10:26 PM']We're already there. Why not finish it?[/quote]

...and how would you suggest that we do that?

[xTrishaxLynnx]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1223547' date='Mar 31 2007, 12:28 AM']...and how would you suggest that we do that?[/quote]

If you really want to get into this, it'll have to be later... too tired for that right now.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='xTrishaxLynnx' post='1223551' date='Mar 30 2007, 10:32 PM']If you really want to get into this, it'll have to be later... too tired for that right now.[/quote]

[Mercy me]

Never surrender

[Mr.Cat]

[quote]“I shall not surrender nor retreat!” [b]Colonel William B. Travis, Alamo [/b][/quote]I am unsure what we should do but it seems wrong for us to invade a nation overthrowing their government then leaving when it becomes a little more than we thought. You finish your fights and you eat all the food that is on your plate. I seriously feel that even though there may have been circumstantial evidence when this started to invade Iraq but looking back I regret such a decision. I really wish there was a diplomatic solution...

[KnightofChrist]

If we leave the enemy wins, if we leave we will betray the Iraq people (again) who we own very much.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1223742' date='Mar 31 2007, 02:19 AM']If we leave the enemy wins, if we leave we will betray the Iraq people (again) who we own very much.[/quote]

Please explain this position more clearly because I just don't make that connection. The Iraqi people are in a civil war, and according to every major poll, sunnis and shiites both agree that it's acceptable to kill US Troops, so how would it be betraying them?

Reza

[Anomaly]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1223765' date='Mar 31 2007, 07:28 AM']Please explain this position more clearly because I just don't make that connection. The Iraqi people are in a civil war, and according to every major poll, sunnis and shiites both agree that it's acceptable to kill US Troops, so how would it be betraying them?

Reza[/quote]Why do you believe polls? Did they poll people who have all the facts of the socio-politcal circumstances, factors, and conditions of life in Iraq? Is it really a civil war when it's other Countries sending in arms and fighters? Or is it really outside opportunists that are attempting to take advantage of the transition from Sadaam to Iraqi self-rule?

The majority of Iraqis don't want to kill US Troops. The majority of Iraqis simply want to run their own country and want the fighting to stop. It's a minority with agendas of Muslim extremism or quests for personal power or agendas of influencing global politics that are sending in car bombs, constructing IED's, instructing and creating chlorine bombs. Do you think Iran taking 15 Brigish military persons has nothing to do with Iraq?

What would additional troops do? Additional troops without artifical restrictions, could limit the movement and organization of insurgents. Most of the insurgents are centered around the Bahgdad area and the outer countryside is mostly at peace. As it is now, US troops are not allowed in certain neighborhoods. There are restrictive rules of engagement.

Maybe the US should make some operational demands such as full reign of all areas and the ability to go into every home if need be and have numerous nts thoughout the area. But the US has to be respectful of the new Iraqi government. The US helped create this mess, so right or wrong for going in there, the US is responsible to make the best of it. Are you familiar with JP-II saying the US is now moraly obligated to deal with the problem they created?

Why do you hold the average Iraqi citizen in such low regard that 1 American death is not worth 100 Iraqi lives? Do you not think that tens of thousands of Iraqis will be killed in political reprisals if the US pulls out now?

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1223769' date='Mar 31 2007, 06:22 AM']Why do you believe polls?

[b]Because it gives insight that is helpful in deciding the "next move". Surely not every poll is right but if every poll [weather democrat or republican] are saying the same thing, then I don't think that there is much to doubt[/b]

Is it really a civil war when it's other Countries sending in arms and fighters? Or is it really outside opportunists that are attempting to take advantage of the transition from Sadaam to Iraqi self-rule?

[b]If you're not aware, its not fighters from other countries, rather it's Sunni and Shiites that are both Iraqi citizens. Muqtadir Al-Sader is a prime example, he's not foreign but rather was born and raised in Iraq but also happens to be the leader of the Shiite Mahdi Army [Militia] and goes through the cities at night, pulling Sunni Muslims out of their homes and murdering them. If that isn't a civil war, then what do you call such a situation.[/b]

The majority of Iraqis don't want to kill US Troops. The majority of Iraqis simply want to run their own country and want the fighting to stop.

[b]I don't know where you get that idea, that isn't what the majority have been saying that's for sure. Being a former soldier that still stays in contact with friend in the military, I can definately assure you that that isn't what the soldiers are saying. I also have friends and family that have taken pilgrimages to Iraq, to visit the Shiite Shrines there, and can also testify that Iraqis don't want to be occupied [as even Mr. Bush has said] and feel justified in killing US Troops. Don't believe me, General Abizaid [the top general in Iraq, that just reciently resigned] even mentioned that it's a civil war, and that the Iraqis are killing the US Troops. General Abizaid's word for word quote, "I believe that the sectarian violence is probably as bad as I’ve seen it, in Baghdad in particular, and that if not stopped, it is possible that Iraq could move towards civil war". Sectarian violence isn't foreign fighters but rather are the permanent residents in Iraq that are fighting each other [Sunni and Shiite].[/b]

It's a minority with agendas of Muslim extremism or quests for personal power or agendas of influencing global politics that are sending in car bombs, constructing IED's, instructing and creating chlorine bombs. Do you think Iran taking 15 Brigish military persons has nothing to do with Iraq?

[b]That's alot of car bombs and IED's out of such a small amount of "foreign fighters" that's for sure, and I don't think that assessment is logical. I'm sure that you'd heard about the mass number of Syriac Orthodox Christians being killed in Northern Iraq [such as the Priest that was executed], guess what? That was the Kurds [permanent citizens of Iraq] that killed that priest and are killing and persecuting the other Syriac Orthodox Christians. Sectarian violence and that of a civil war is a fact that is undeniable.[/b]

What would additional troops do? Additional troops without artifical restrictions, could limit the movement and organization of insurgents.

[b]The "surge in troops" that Bush has proposed and put into action isn't any more troops then was in Iraq a year ago, and the situation was out of control then. The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over again, expecting different results. It's not going to even come close to stopping the Mahdi Army, which is a much more important factor the so called "insurgants" as the Mahdi Army killing far more people every night.[/b]

Most of the insurgents are centered around the Bahgdad area and the outer countryside is mostly at peace. As it is now, US troops are not allowed in certain neighborhoods. There are restrictive rules of engagement.

[b]No the violence is also in Northern Iraq [Mosul], Basra [southern Iraq], and lots of other areas. Its not just baghdad, baghdad is just a media primary focus because they don't travel outside of Baghdad much due to security issues. Even the King and Queen of Jordan have said that the US Troops in Iraq, are in a dangerous position and that the sectarian violence is erupting into a civil war.[/b]

Maybe the US should make some operational demands such as full reign of all areas and the ability to go into every home if need be and have numerous nts thoughout the area.

[b]That's been tried, it didn't work.[/b]

But the US has to be respectful of the new Iraqi government. The US helped create this mess, so right or wrong for going in there, the US is responsible to make the best of it. Are you familiar with JP-II saying the US is now moraly obligated to deal with the problem they created?

[b]Sure but "morally obligated" is quite different then keeping US Soldiers in Iraq to be butchered.[/b]

Why do you hold the average Iraqi citizen in such low regard that 1 American death is not worth 100 Iraqi lives?

[b]This is a very humorous phrase of yours, because I was raised by Shiites from Persia. It's not that I don't hold the average Iraqi citizen to lower worth, but more that I know the situation from a close perspective and understand the culture there. Iraqis have over and over and over and over and over again said that the presence of US Forces isn't welcomed, and that they're justified in killing US Troops. Let me drop another perspective in the conversation, alot of Iraqis are seen as "innocent women and children" but its not always the situation. A grip of shiite women, give shelter, food & water, and help hide Mahdi Army soldiers, then after Sunni's attack them, the US Media reports, "innocent shiite women were killed by sunni gunmen." Therefore, I'm thinking of every side in the situation, with the withdraw of American Soldiers.[/b]

[b]More then 90% of Shiites in Iraq have relatives in Iran, so if the US withdraws, those women and children that would like to avoid the bloodshed, could move to Iran with their relatives, while the two sects [Sunni & Shiite] battle it out.[/b]



Do you not think that tens of thousands of Iraqis will be killed in political reprisals if the US pulls out now?

[b]With all due respect, thousands of Iraqis are being killed right now, while the US Troops are there, the difference is that the US Troops are also being murdered in the process.[/b][/quote]

[Didymus]

our victory in Iraq will help determine future relations with Iran

[Mercy me]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1224359' date='Mar 31 2007, 05:47 PM']our victory in Iraq will help determine future relations with Iran[/quote]

Absolutely! Especially because Iran is actively working within Iraq to destablize it.

[KnightofChrist]

[b][url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1152096,00.html"]Syria and Iran aiding militants, Iraq says[/url][/b]


[u][b]Intelligence officers claim evidence of infiltration[/b][/u]

Michael Howard in Kirkuk
Friday February 20, 2004
The Guardian

Senior Iraqi intelligence officers believe an Islamic militant group which has claimed responsibility for two suicide bombings in Irbil and a spate of deadly attacks in Baghdad, Falluja and Mosul is receiving significant help from Syria and Iran.

The officers, who have been tracking the activities of domestic and foreign jihadists in northern Iraq, claim that members of Jaish Ansar al-Sunna (the army of the supporters of the sayings of the prophet) have been [b]"given shelter by Syrian and Iranian security agencies and have been able to enter Iraq with ease".[/b]

The group is suspected of training suicide bombers and deploying them against US forces in Iraq and Iraqis considered to be collaborating with the US-led authorities.

Jaish Ansar al-Sunna was one of a dozen Islamic militant organisations which issued a joint statement two weeks ago in Ramadi and Falluja warning Iraqis against cooperating with the occupation.

It distributed CDs carrying video footage of some of its operations, which included roadside bomb attacks on US military convoys.

US officials believe that since Saddam Hussein was captured in December the insurgency is being increasingly fought by Islamic guerrillas rather than former regime loyalists.

The emergence of Islamist extremist groups has added to the challenges faced by the occupation authorities and the local security forces.

While the Iraqi authorities are struggling to establish an effective intelligence operation in the centre and south of the country, in the north they have been able to build on the existing intelligence network in the Kurdish ruled area.

An intelligence officer in the northern city of Kirkuk said: "We have arrested a number of foreign Arabs that we believe may be connected to the global terror network.

"They all seemed to have Iranian or Syrian visas in their passports. A number of them told us they had received assistance in those countries."

He said Hassan Ghul, a suspected al-Qaida operative found to be carrying a document urging the fomenting of civil war in Iraq, had been arrested by Kurdish forces on the Iraqi side of the Iranian border near the town of Kalar.

The Americans have said the 17-page letter was written by Abu Musab Zarqawi, a Jordanian fugitive allegedly linked to Osama bin Laden.

Jaish Ansar al-Sunna is suspected of coordinating the infiltration of foreign militants - experienced terrorists and young footsoldiers - from Europe through Syria, the intelligence officer said.

"We are not talking huge numbers, perhaps 100 since the war, but that is too much," he said.

"We believe that there is a safe house for them near Damsacus. They are crossing the border west of Mosul, then heading for Mosul before dispersing to other cities."

He said Iran and Syria wanted to use the militant issue as a bargaining point in their relations with the US.

Hoshyar Zebari, the Iraqi foreign minister, said: "There are incidents of infiltration from the outside.

"I do not want to accuse anyone, but we are not getting sufficient cooperation from our neighbours.

"If they believe they can play with the security of Iraq, they are playing with fire. It's very dangerous."

Damascus and Tehran reject the allegation they are harbouring or facilitating jihadists and point to their increased cooperation with George Bush's global war on terror.

The Iraqi intelligence officers, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Jaish Ansar al-Sunna was believed to be a splinter group of Ansar al-Islam (supporters of Islam), an extreme Kurdish group with suspected links to al-Qaida.

The group's leader is identified on its website as Abu Abdullah al-Hassan bin Mahmoud, thought to be the brother of a leading Ansar al-Islam fighter.

Until the invasion of Iraq Ansar al-Islam controlled a string of villages high in the Zagros mountains near the Iranian border.

There it introduced Taliban-style rule and despised the secular governments of the two main parties in the Kurdish ruled area, the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, led by Jalal Talabani, and the Kurdistan Democratic party, led by Massoud Barzani, whose Irbil offices were attacked with synchronised suicide bombers on February 1.

A total of 109 people were killed and scores more injured in the attacks, the worst since the fall of Saddam.

Ansar al-Islam was ousted from its stronghold at the beginning of the war by a joint operation involving PUK peshmerga forces and US air power.

About 200 fighters fled to Iran, the intelligence official said.

They had now had time to reorganise and had been filtering back into Iraq, where they had joined Sunni Arab extremists to form the new group.

[KnightofChrist]

[url="http://www.huliq.com/8925/u-s-warns-iran-to-stop-aiding-iraqi-insurgents"]U.S. Warns Iran To Stop Aiding Iraqi Insurgents[/url]
Nicholas Burns


A senior U.S. diplomat has accused Iran of supplying Iraqi insurgents with weapons technology used to kill U.S. troops.

Undersecretary of State Nicholas Burns said the United States had been tracking Iranian involvement in Iraqi insurgent attacks for about two years and had found increasing evidence that Iran had given assistance to Shi'ite insurgent groups in southern Iraq.

Burns's comments, in a U.S. radio interview to be aired later today, came amid reports that Iraq had invited neighbors -- including Syria and Iran -- to a meeting in March to discuss the political and security situation there.

AP also reported that Iraq will halt flights to and from Syria as the government prepares for a new crackdown on insurgents in Baghdad and surrounding regions.

Baghdad and Washington accuse Syria, along with Iran, of failing to halt insurgents and weapons crossing their borders into Iraq.

As part of the security operation, the first of three Iraqi brigades is expected to deploy in Baghdad today.

Violence continues, meanwhile. At least 43 people were reported killed across the country on January 31, including a U.S. soldier.