Prove It.

[BLAZEr]

Please read Brideshead Revisited . . . it's my favorite book. And its so beaver dam real. Seriously. It's amesome. Read it. You will identify. I know I did.

Seriously, I would apostasize every other day if I didn't think it was futile. God I love this Holy Church, despite all the jerks in it.

[Azriel]

None of us can say that during our walk of faith that we never have any doubts or wanted "proof".

You're not crazy. You are quite human.

Prayers for you.

[Good Friday]

Thank you all for your responses.

I'll be using this screen name again now.

Talk amongst yourselves.

[Azriel]

"I'm a little verklempt! Talk amongst yourselves..I'll give you a topic: Rhode Island, it's not a road, nor an island...discuss!"

[Jake Huether]

Speech,

I just thought I'd throw in my 2 pennies even though its already been mentioned in one way or another.

For faith to exist, then proof must not exist. Once proof exists, then faith fails you. You cannot have faith in something that has been proven, because the defition of faith is a belief in something for which there is no proof.

So, in a sense we cannot ask you to have faith in our system and also be requred to prove it to you. This denys the whole consept of you having "faith".

One has faith that gravity won't stop. Can you honestly prove that gravity won't just dissappear one day? Or that the sun won't come up one day. Proof is really a relative turm, that is based on experience. Really our whole existance is faith based. We have faith that when we turn the oven on, it will cook meat. But what if heat stopped flowing?? What if energy coudn't convect, radiate, or conduct. It has only been "proven" that so far it does what it's supposed to do. But it has never been proven that it "can't" not do what it's supposed to do.

Hearts have been known to stop, minds fail, and at times the blind have been restored to sight. Without proof.

If what you are looking for is proof, you won't find it. If however, you would be satisfied with evidence (that is, not difinitive proof - but a hint), then consider reading the lives of the Saints. Consider the uncorruptable bodies of Saints. Consider that out of all the Churches, Christian and non-Christian the Catholic Church is unceacingly under attack from all sides. Why? Why would the Catholic Church be attacked by Christians and Pagans alike? The answer is that it is not of this world. If the world doesn't know something, it rejects it. Same with Jesus.

God bless you, and my prayers are with you.

[ironmonk]

Thank you all for your responses.

I'll be using this screen name again now.

Talk amongst yourselves.

Please check your PM's on the other one....

Just know that your doubts are normal... doubts do not make you crazy. Most of us have them.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk :huh:

[p0lar_bear]

Speech,

I'm too lazy to read the entire thread, so I apologize if I'm repeating anything.

Your question is a valid one. Saying that Christianity is true simply because the Bible says it is doesn't work. After all, the Koran says Islam is true and I'm sure Buddism and Hinduism have sacred writings that "prove" they are true.

When it comes right down to it, no one can really prove Catholicism. This is partially because one cannot prove "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that God exists. One can offer compelling reasons and proofs, but in the end, there has to be an element of faith. (My personal favorite proof is "something exists, therefore God exists.")

So, I guess rather than trying to 'prove' Catholicism all at once, we should begin with 'proving' the existence of God...

Regardless of what arguments I or others present, it will be more along the lines of convincing arguments or evidence than empirical proof.

Are you willing?

[Aloysius]

Thank you all for your responses.

I'll be using this screen name again now.

Talk amongst yourselves.

I'm so glad you're back on that sn...

now we just gotta get that SN back into the correct group ^_^ ;)

[Bruce S]

When it comes right down to it, no one can really prove Catholicism. This is partially because one cannot prove "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that God exists. One can offer compelling reasons and proofs, but in the end, there has to be an element of faith. (My personal favorite proof is "something exists, therefore God exists.")

Grin. We don't "Prove Anything"

We are LEAD to believe. It is a universal trait, all cultures, from advanced to primitive have a concept of God. That, is pretty much a proof, now UNDERSTANDING God is quite a different matter.

For me, it is a trial and error system.

First you...doubt.

Then you begin a quest. There is an agent, one left here for all of us, perhaps the agent was here long ago, I think He was, and Is still operative. That agent is not a denomination, nor, for that matter words in a book, it is ephermal, elusive, but is it REAL?

You test it.

Go down on unbelieving knees, open up, PRETEND this might be real. ASK...really ask, with your entire being for SOMETHING...ANYTHING to happen.

Then sit back, and observe.

For most, astonishing things begin to happen, unwelcome things, along with wanted things.

Weird actually. But, you then spend the rest of your life moving in directions that you never, ever, would consider before.

For most, we quickly want some more, and that book we all have is a good place.

[Aloysius]

hey, Good Friday is ours!.. stop tryin to get him with your non-denominational mumbo jumbo

i'm pretty sure he realizes that if he were to b Christian again though, Catholocism is the way to go... right? i mean, he used to be so convinced about that...

St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray. and do thou oh Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the Power of GOD ALMIGHTY, cast into hell all the evil spirits who prowl about this world seeking the ruin of souls.

Go down on unbelieving knees, open up, PRETEND this might be real. ASK...really ask, with your entire being for SOMETHING...ANYTHING to happen.

that's not bad advice.

i love you Good Friday, don't be discouraged by anyone, follow God wherever He leads you, you know in your heart what you have to do.

[Anna]

Good Friday is good. :)

[Bruce S]

Grin. That is the Pentecostal part of me ...

They really do the BEST "Altar Calls"

The Catholic Church really should get the AC in at the end of every Mass.

If you do, we want royalties too, we never got our check when you tried to steal back tounges after a thousand years of inactivity, and we never saw a DIME from the singing you stole ... and never got right.

Hey, how about we FRANCHISE Pentecostalism and then we can stop tithing and just take some of the Peter's Pence loot?

:drool:

[Aloysius]

Katholikos: "Catholics, don't believe that Bruce S is sincere in this thread. -- He's a snake, as slithery and treacherous as Satan was in the Garden of Eden!

[ironmonk]

Grin. That is the Pentecostal part of me ...

They really do the BEST "Altar Calls"

The Catholic Church really should get the AC in at the end of every Mass.

If you do, we want royalties too, we never got our check when you tried to steal back tounges after a thousand years of inactivity, and we never saw a DIME from the singing you stole ... and never got right.

Hey, how about we FRANCHISE Pentecostalism and then we can stop tithing and just take some of the Peter's Pence loot?

Tongues was not inactive, it's just real in the CC.

Pentacostal churches started back in 1906.

In Christ,

ironmonk

[Good Friday]

i'm pretty sure he realizes that if he were to b Christian again though, Catholocism is the way to go... right? i mean, he used to be so convinced about that...

With no offense to our separated brothers and sisters, I would never be anything other than Catholic if I were to be a mainstream Christian again (I never stopped being Christian -- just, not a very good Christian). Cheryl (cmotherofpirl) has said upon occasion that if she had to choose something to be other than Catholic, she would be Jewish. I don't know that I would go that far, since I would want to believe in Christ, but like her I can't imagine what Christianity would be like without the Catholic Church.

That said, I really thank Bruce for his response. I'm glad we could find something over which we don't have to debate. Like all of you, Bruce wants me to be close to Christ. Unfortunately, he probably doesn't think that can happen as a Catholic. But we should always be looking for common ground when we dialogue, and there is common ground here: all of you, including Bruce, care about my spiritual well-being and my fidelity to God. We shouldn't question his motives in this. Until proven otherwise, we should assume that he is sincere. By questioning his sincerity, we claim to know his mind and heart -- something that God alone can know. That kind of judgmentalism is uncalled for. I understand that many disagree with him over many things, and that there have been harsh words and hurt feelings on both sides. But he has been as kind to me in this thread as all of you have been, and I'm grateful.

Comments questioning his sincerity and comparing him to Satan will in no way help him. If the goal is to insult and divide, that will do it. I don't think that's the intended goal here, and I think that Phatmass would do a lot better if people would step back once in a while and see what the intended goal is. I'm more guilty of ignoring the goal of the phorum than anyone else, probably, but we should all -- including me -- start to think more about that. The goal is not insult and division.