Aloysius Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 (edited) i understand, speech, i understand. it happens to all of us at some point.. some to a larger degree than others. love ya bro. Edited January 27, 2004 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speech Posted January 27, 2004 Author Share Posted January 27, 2004 Love ya too, dude, but... I'm not foundsheep. :rolling: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christopher Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 It's also like Jesus said to "doubting" Thomas;"Now you have seen and believe, happy are those who believe and have not yet seen." Don't worry my little atheist child, I was once where you are not long ago. I used to just totally tell people off for talking about God. I would say "where is he?" Then over some of the worst years of my life, which thank Our Lord are over, he began slowly to speak to my heart. He did it through people; beautiful girls named Merri Kristi, Christine,meaning "Christ-like", suffering for others out of love. He, with especially the help of Mary, brought me through some awful things and now into the church where I am CONSTANTLY learning new and beautiful things about history, heaven, humanity, theology, and how to break down with humility before others;BEFORE WE DIE, together. The overall point is that we begin to live more like little children,with love of one another, we begin to have faith, and vice versa. You can't pick up the Good Book, thinking of it only as literature and expect to be saved. You must take it less literally and understand that it is SPIRITUALLY happening now and forever in our hearts and in heaven, especially the Gospels. And you must wait until you are ready to speak to him from yor heart and when you are he will be there waiting to answer as he is now. Dominus Vobiscum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 (edited) Love ya too, dude, but... I'm not foundsheep. :rolling: lol i was thinkin about how i just passed foundsheep up in post count! maybe ure just a lost sheep in need of becoming a foundsheep... maybe it was providence that i made that silly mistake! ^_^ Edited January 27, 2004 by Aloysius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Just pray for me, if you would. I think I'm crazy or something. Nathan, you've been through a lot this year...just these past couple of months alone. God understands. Give yourself time to heal, too. When you feel lovey hugs wrapped around you, know that it's either your gramma's prayers, or my guardian angel's wings... (((hugs and prayers))) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 That must be my problem, then. I don't have any. you have all my prayers in the world man. we all go through ups and downs in our life, just don't totally lose hope. i understand that's easy to read Scripture and say that you have faith with words, but truly believing with your entire heart is a whole other matter. give it time and don't purposely reject the possibility of finding faith. that's all i can say, and the rest is personal between you and God. I hope you reach Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 (edited) Ironmonk's right, actually. I do reject the Catholic Church, knowing full well that it's the source of truth and just simply not caring. I just wanted to see if anyone could prove it, and it looks as if he could, with one article that I haven't the intelligence to dispute. But I'm still not coming back to the Church, because whether or not it's true makes very little difference to me. Carry on. from a psychological standpoint, i see resolution coming through your answer to the question, "why?" you know the Church is the source of truth, but u don't care. me: why don't u care? you: because ________ me: why? you: because ________ me: why? you: because _________ engage in this process until you have approached the very heart of the matter. therein lies your answer. of course, this is not nearly as easy as it sounds. for one, it takes tremendous will to continually confront urself in this manner. every voice inside your head will tell you to quit asking questions. "it doesn't matter" they will say. but, if u are intent on finding ur answer, u will carry on. this will also take tremendous honesty. it will require you to admit to yourself exactly why you do everything that you do. you will have to admit to yourself your motivations behind everything. you will realize that you are making bad decisions, that you are purposely doing things that you should not do, that you do things even though they are bad for you. you will have to acknowledge the effect that your entire world from the very beginning has had upon you. this takes honesty. for example, its hard for some girls to admit to themselves that they are screwing around w/ guys and allowing guys to use them all b/c they have a low self-esteem. its hard for them to admit to themselves that they do these things--knowing full well how much it hurts them--all b/c for a few moments they feel beautiful. finally, it takes love. love for others, but most importantly, love for yourself. there will be voices inside that tell you ur not good enough, not smart enough, not worthy enough, not ______ enough. in times like this you must fight for yourself. fight for the love that created this universe and created you. love is good, right? you want what is good, right? well, where there is hatred (even for yourself), there is not love. where there are insults, there is not love. God is Love, b/c there is no greater being then God and no greater emotion than love. we all want to be loved. search your soul and u will find this need w/in yourself. If God exists, and love exists, and love is what we all want, then it is love that you must fight for. when the voices inside of you tell you that you cannot go on, then u know that those voices are not of love. Love wants you to go on, love urges you on, b/c that's what you want. and love is what God is. and God wants you. God has created in us all an INESCAPABLE longing to be w/ him. and many other inflluences will attempt to impede this process. but u must fight for the only thing that is good in this world. you must fight for love. you must fight for God. i see two statements that currently keep you from God and His Church: 1. i don't care that Truth is in God and His Church 2. i don't have faith. pick one of those statments and begin to ask "why?" once you have finally discovered the heart of the problem. then you ask the "what". "well, what do i do w/ this 'why' that i have discovered?" we can help you w/ that too. i will pray for you. i love you. phatcatholic Edited January 27, 2004 by phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Just pray for me, if you would. I think I'm crazy or something. speech you have my prayers and i have been meaning ot tell you that i have been praying my rosary for you already!! remember speech, God is the closest to us when we feel the farthest away!! his always there! he only asks that we turn to him! you have our prayers speech!we care about you! and so does the BLessed Mother!! do not forget her for She hasn't forgotten YOU speech, shes keeping Her promise and only wishes to guide all Her children thru the light and darknesses of life... nathan, i'm planning on consecrating myself to the immaculata mary like you did long ago and its all because of you, nathan, when you made a thread about it when you consecrated yourself to Mary, and encouraged all of us, and i thank you for it was your invitation that has led me to it....i remember you saying that you know that no matter what happens that you will be guided and cared for by the Blessed Mother, thru your promise and Her's!! do not forget that nathan! the Blessed mother keeps her promise!! :wub: :wub: :wub: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Nathan, you got my prayers too. Remember what I told you earlier -- don't give up. It's hard, I know. You know that God is merciful. He'll strengthen you to come back where you need to be if only you let Him. But the key is not to lose hope. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 oh my grammar is awful! please excuse it! :sadder: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 (edited) Prove to me, without scripture (since I don't believe in it), that the Catholic Church is the only true religion, that Jesus was God, and all the other stuff you believe in. If it's absolute truth, and if it's the only true path, then it must be easy to prove, because surely a merciful God wouldn't make the only true way to salvation something difficult to believe in. Right? This request is a bit lofty!!! I'm kind of a sucker so I will try to give some kind of reply. I could write all night on this topic so I will try to condense my answer as much as possible. I hope it is somewhat intelligible, it's a lofty question afterall. The basic tension of human philosophical and religious thought (and of our being really) is the reconciliation of contrary essences (ie., time & eternity, finite & infinite, plurality & unity), ultimately the fundamental plurality of all existence and the unity of all existence. This tension exists, unresolved in Hinduism, Buddhism, Marxism, Positivism, Post-modernism, classical philosophy, etc. Man is a being with concepts of eternity, unity, infinity, the Absolute, etc. Though these concepts ultimately imply one another and are reducible to the one, the finitude of the mind's intellective power differentiates through logical distinction. The mind however, grasps by analogy and contuition the One Essence of these ideas. This would seem to indicate that man is situated and constituted, in his personal essence and fundamental consciousness of being, as it were at the convergence of these contrary essences. A crude diagram might look something like this: Infinity | Eternity | One | Unity | Absolute Being | Necesity -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Man | Personal Existence | Intentionality | the "I" | Consciousness | Essence -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Finitude | Time | Multiplicity | Plurality | Limited Being | Contingency The primary accidental modes of finite being correspond to logical distinctions (made by our finite mind in it's intermediary mode of being) which describe the Divine Essence or Absolute Being. For example the accident of quantity corresponds to infinite immensity, time corresponds to eternity, etc. The accident of relationality is unique in finite being in that while other accidents modify a substance and include a reference to the substance in which they adhere, relationality also includes a reference to a being outside the substance to which it adheres. The implication in this context is a fundamental substantive relationality in Absolute Being. The highest form of relationality in finite being is our personal constitution in it's intermediary mode of being and relation of intentionality as intimated before. Thus in the Absolute a corresponding logical distinction must be possible. This is expressed in terms of the First Principle which, as self-diffusive necessitates a second Hypostasis or Supposit which is the complete expression of the infinitude of the First Principle. Absolute Being can be said to have a third Hypostasis or Supposit not by necessity but by virtue of the perfect harmony between the First Principle and the expressed Hypostasis of the infinitude of possibilities in the First Principle of which it is the perfect Image, thus expressing the perfection of absolute, substantive relationality. In this model the first Hypostasis or Supposit is the First Principle and the principle of Absolute Fullness and Absolute emptiness (understood as kenosis and 'gift'), the third Hypostasis is the substantive relation of the first and second and is, by analogy Absolute receptivity (although there is no receptivity in Absolute Being in the strict sense in relation to Finite Being), the second Hypostasis is expressed infinite possibility in relation to the First Principle and as expressed relates the first and third Supposits. Since the second Hypostasis is the expression of the infinite possibilities (ideas) of the First Principle, and is in the center of the relation between the first and third supposits, it follows that the second Hypostasis is in relation to finite being (or existence expressed through limiting essence), as the convergence analogous to man's personal costitution in relation to impersonal being and the Absolute. Man is a conscious subject, in relation to finite being through intentionality and to Infinite Being through the second Hypostasis which is the exemplary cause of his being. The contingent essences necessitate a kind of fulfillment in the Absolute Essence. This fulfillment, or reconciliation, it would follow, is in the relation to the Exemplar, or second Hypostasis which is the Coincidence of Opposites at the heart of existence. So, while it's hard to explain in a little post, the fulfillment of our personal existence is the supra-personal dynamism of the Divine Essence (Absolute Being) which originates and completes finite being as a limited expression or image of the Divine Essence. The reconciliation of the existence of contrary essences is the second Supposit or Hypostasis (Person) of the Divine Essence (Absolute Being) which is the Exemplar of our being and the Coincidence of Opposites. So the fundamental relationality of being, the Coincidence of Opposites as the reconciliation of contrary essences, and the constitution of man as the closest image of these realities in the world of our experience imply some substantial links between all of these realities. What emerges is the fulfillment of our essence (as a finite, limited being with a personal dimension which is at the convergence of the contrary essences) in the second Hypostasis or coincidence of opposites in the substantive relationality of Absolute Being. To put it in colloquial terms, the human and the Divine, creation and the First Principle reconciled in a Hypostatic Union. In Christian terminology, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us", "Though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God something to be grasped at, but rather he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in the likeness of men", "He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created... He is before all things, and in him all things have their being... For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth of in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross." I'm not laying claim to a definitive proof, this is more of a very brief sketch. But I do hold that all of creation (the material universe, being as being, man's constitution, etc.) points toward the reality of God and even to the Triune nature of God and the unique relation of creation to the second Person of the Trinity. This is supported by the fact that many very penetrating and diverse philosophers (ancient Greek, ancient Asian- Indian & Chinese, Jewish, Moslem, Modern) have through reason alone come to percieve reality in ways that come very, very close to this understanding. I also hold that it is most reasonable, for a variety of reasons, that this second Person, as the reconciliator of contraries, would become Incarnate. It should be noted that the fundamental self-diffusive nature of God that was described in such a cold and abstract way, is actually the fact of God's Goodness. The Divine Essence is Love. Relationality, Gift, and Self-Diffusive Goodness. I would argue (maybe later we can get into it) that the philosophies, religions, mythologies, arts, etc. the basic longings of the human heart and the expressions or manifestations of those innate, dynamic intimations of the reality of man's existence point toward the fact of God's self revelation in Jesus the Nazarean who is called the Christ. At that point Catholicism just makes sense because it's doctrine, life, history and practice the most clearly and radiantly embody these revealed truths. The lives and writings of the mystics reveal in profound ways, the reality of this supernatural life that is available to us as personal beings in relation to the Absolute. Edited January 27, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 I hate that when you spend such a long time writing a post that by the time you submit it the discussion is over and your post is irrelavant. God bless you Speech! I will pray for you for sure. Peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 But I'm still not coming back to the Church, because whether or not it's true makes very little difference to me. Carry on. Yeah you will. Yes it does. In fact, here's my prediction: You'll come back to the Church, then leave again, then come back, and then leave, and then come back, and then leave, and then come back again, and then leave. I know this because I study history. The way I figure, you got a 50/50 chance of dying at just the right time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 lm*o@dUSt's prediction... Charles I figured out a new twist on Paschal's wager...he lived like an atheist and died like a Catholic...methinks he was on to something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Charles I figured out a new twist on Paschal's wager...he lived like an atheist and died like a Catholic...methinks he was on to something. This is similar to my firm belief that we should all time our deaths with the maxing out of all our credit cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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