Prove It.

[Laudate_Dominum]

An old roommate of mine was an atheistic guy at one point. He said he took a class where they read a bunch of classical greek philosophy and it got him interested in spiritual things. Just for fun he read some Hindu writings and Buddhist stuff. After a while he decided to scope out the Bible because he was just curious about it, he had no interest in Christianity. He said by the time he finished reading the Gospels he knew that Christianity was legit, he believed in the Christ. The point is faith is a grace, in a way it's a miracle. Knowledge of God and a relationship with God is a gift that we don't merit. After my roommate believed in his heart and said "no man ever spoke like this man", he tried praying and asking God to send him to His true Church. He ended up being baptized into the Catholic Church.

Another roommate of mine was a staunch athiest (raised that way) who only after years of study and philosophy converted to the Faith. He read C.S. Lewis' writings several times, Cardinal Newman's writings, some of St. Thomas, Chesterton, Augustine, and still resisted even believing in God though he was obviously being drawn toward something. He told me how he would go on internet forums and start debates with Christians about the existence of God and all kinds of other things. I think one day he was reading some of Newman's 'apologia pro vita sua' when something he had read before suddenly struck him in an unexpected way and suddenly he found himself unable to disbelieve the existence of God. These days he's pursuing the priesthood.

There is no one liner that someone on a forum can post that will solve everything for you (at least not that I know of). God draws people to Himself in different ways. The best answer I can give you would be to pray and ask God (if He's there) to reveal Himself to you, and put you on His path toward truth, love and eternity.

Peace.

[Speech]

Aloysius writes:

it's supported by many facts, maybe not completely proven, but confirmed throughout history. in the fact that the Church is the oldest existing institution (it's more than an institution, but yeah) there is absolutely no man made institution on earth that is 2000 years old, theres somethin special here.

Ever heard of Judaism or Hinduism?

also, Fatima, the thousands of witnessess...

That's not proof. It could have been mass hysteria. There's no documented evidence of this: no video, for instance.

the stigmata, well i guess you can't prove that in like, the medievil saints, but St. Padre Pio was examined by a doctor who couldn't find an explanation.

The lack of a medical explanation doesn't assume that the explanation is God. There was no medical explanation for small pox, at one time. That didn't mean it was from God.

the tilma of Juan Diego has never been explained by science, obstitritions, optomitrists, and all sorts of experts have examined it. it is impossible for it to have been painted by human hand.

But how does that prove that Mary put it there? The lack of an explanation does not automatically mean that God did it.

the shroud of Turin, that image is completely unexplained. the blood type found in it is AB, the same type found in the miracle of Lanciano when the bread and wine actually appeared to be the body and blood and science examined it, it's human blood and flesh from the human heart, it has been completely incorrupt for many centuries.

I have no argument against this, except that the Vatican has said that the Shroud of Turin cannot possibly be Jesus' shroud.

ummm... history has never proved the Bible wrong.

Really? So we're all descended from Adam and Eve, there was a flood that destroyed the whole earth, and the world is exactly as old as the Bible claims it is?

how bout the amazing number of conversions from the time of the apostles, without any military advance like the Muslims or anything like that

How about the amazing number of willful conversions to Islam? Does that make it true?

how bout the amazing number of conversions completely offsetting the reformation for Our Lady of Guadeloupe.

How about them? People always do drastic things when they're hysterical.

[hyperdulia again]

Neither judaism or hinduism are "institutional religions"..they both give a TREMENDOUS amount of latitude regarding belief...in fact we're all hindus right now, and since my female line ancestors were Jewish, I'm a very bad Jew to the Orthodox branch of that faith.

[Speech]

Neither judaism or hinduism are "institutional religions"..they both give a TREMENDOUS amount of latitude regarding belief...in fact we're all hindus right now, and since my female line ancestors were Jewish, I'm a very bad Jew to the Orthodox branch of that faith.

And without a formal renunciation, I'm still a very bad Catholic. Rabbinical Judaism most certainly is an institutional religion, and it's as old as the Catholic Church. The Orthodox Church is also as old as the Catholic Church. Which of these three holds the truth? Rabbinical Judaism, Catholicism, or Orthodoxy?

[ironmonk]

Prove to me, without scripture (since I don't believe in it), that the Catholic Church is the only true religion, that Jesus was God, and all the other stuff you believe in. If it's absolute truth, and if it's the only true path, then it must be easy to prove, because surely a merciful God wouldn't make the only true way to salvation something difficult to believe in. Right?

This article is bulletproof...

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apol...ics/ap0002.html

Prove that it isn't.

To say prove it shows that you are rejecting God, by rejecting the ones He sent.

You've seen the proof... you've already amply proven yourself wrong when looking at your alter ego posts of "Good Friday"

-ironmonk

[Laudate_Dominum]

Man, Peter Kreeft is getting old!

[Speech]

Ironmonk's right, actually. I do reject the Catholic Church, knowing full well that it's the source of truth and just simply not caring. I just wanted to see if anyone could prove it, and it looks as if he could, with one article that I haven't the intelligence to dispute.

But I'm still not coming back to the Church, because whether or not it's true makes very little difference to me. Carry on.

[M.SIGGA]

when you truly believe and totally offer up all your sorrows and doubts to Jesus you are transformed by his amazing power. the Church even calls some things mysteries, so there is no total explaination possible. have faith and believe and God will have a miraculous effect on your life; everyday miracles that cannont be proven by any scientist or psychologist. it all starts with faith.

[Aloysius]

i couldn't get my responses to post when i first tried...

Ever heard of Judaism or Hinduism?

they are not institutions.

hinduism has existed for a long time, originating from unhistorical myths and what not. from the very begining it was just different villages coming up with different stories about their own gods, and it was all combined into one religion at one point or another, and now it's just a big glob of 'all religions are true'

Judaism was founded by God. their ppl are sustained, currently their faith is weakening and falling to liberalism because they missed the messiah. the truly devout of them are eventually realizing the truth of Christ.

That's not proof. It could have been mass hysteria. There's no documented evidence of this: no video, for instance.

i told you, not proof, but just lil facts that show a lil evidence. it cannot be prooven by human standards.

The lack of a medical explanation doesn't assume that the explanation is God. There was no medical explanation for small pox, at one time. That didn't mean it was from God.

aight... so you think it was some sort of disease? have you ever heard of a disease that has only happened to ppl who pray a whole bunch??

But how does that prove that Mary put it there? The lack of an explanation does not automatically mean that God did it.

but where did it come from? it's either God or aliens.. you choose. which one makes more sense?

I have no argument against this, except that the Vatican has said that the Shroud of Turin cannot possibly be Jesus' shroud.

when did it say that?????

Really? So we're all descended from Adam and Eve, there was a flood that destroyed the whole earth, and the world is exactly as old as the Bible claims it is?

the Bible doesn't give an age for the earth, private interpretation gives an age for the earth. who says we're not descended from adam and eve, all those other fossils have never been proven to be related to us. is it more likely they're a bunch of extinct species or that they changed into us somehow.

the flood... well there was a flood in that area... what if the earth was the known earth? if we only knew of north america and all of north america flooded, wouldn't we say the whole earth flooded.

How about the amazing number of willful conversions to Islam? Does that make it true?

i mentioned that... we didn't do it by the military. from the earliest times of islam they set out across the arab world to spread their religion by force.

How about them? People always do drastic things when they're hysterical.

so every single person who has ever followed a religion was hysterical?

[Speech]

M.SIGGA writes:

it all starts with faith.

That must be my problem, then. I don't have any.

[jasJis]

Speech,

You can't ask a question in a vacum. What is proof? How can anything be proven? Can you prove that you exist? What are your standards for fact? The list is endless.

Nothing can really be proven without a doubt, including the idea that you really exist and you aren't dreaming right this second like in a Matrix or something.

If you want proof, you'll never get it. Logic and reason will enable you to choose between things what is more reasonable given what you can observe.

Finally, spend time in prayer, and apply reason to it. Is it reasonable that God should be a dispensing machine to give you all you want and still provide free will and limited autonomy? Or is it more reasonable that a good thing can be chosen in every single situation, no matter how horrible it is.

No body can convince you of this, you have to ponder these things, without personal emotional demands, and with honest openess that it May be possible. Anybody who tells you they've always believed in God and never had doubts of varying degree is not telling you the truth unless their understanding is very, very shallow and they aren't being honest with themselves.

Enjoy it. Believing in God is a process, not a single instance. If God was just a FACT, you either know it or don't. If God is no less than a complete and unique person as you and I, you can spend a lifetime growing to know Him more and more. I've been married more than 20 years, and I don't know my wife's entire personage. I know her so well that I know I can look forward to 30 more years of deepening intimacy and discovery. God's even more than that.

[Anna]

St. Bernadette is credited with saying, "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible."

I hope, dear Speech, that the flame of Faith will be rekindled in your soul soon.

Stay with us.

And please, visit Jesus.

You know where to find Him.

Pax Christi. <><

[IXpenguin21]

Prove to me, without scripture (since I don't believe in it), that the Catholic Church is the only true religion, that Jesus was God, and all the other stuff you believe in. If it's absolute truth, and if it's the only true path, then it must be easy to prove, because surely a merciful God wouldn't make the only true way to salvation something difficult to believe in. Right?

that's like saying to a doctor, "prove to me that you are a doctor because i wasn't with you when you went to med-school and i don't believe in the piece of paper that says you are"

if you want, you can trust him and let him slice you open and hope for the best.

the fruits of his work will prove his status.

the Church's documents (not scripture) are SATURATED with scripture! that's the basis of it's doctrines! you cannot seperate the two (scripture and church). i think every single church militant will agree on me with this one, and so will Pope Leo XIII, who wrote an encyclical on it.

[hyperdulia again]

Nathan, faith is about 75% will.

Most days, it takes a serious conscious effort for me to not go and become a [just about anything other than Catholic] and I'm not even talking about avoiding sin, but just avoiding apostasy. It's hard.

[Speech]

Just pray for me, if you would. I think I'm crazy or something.