Jihad Is A Much Larger Threat Than Nazism

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1230952' date='Apr 5 2007, 02:40 AM']Reza, I would ask you to be more cautious when discussing subjects which you may not know much about. The Catholic Church spoke out against the problems in the Germany Empire over two years before the start of World War II began in Europe. Please refer to this encyclical from 1937:
[url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius11/P11BRENN.HTM"]ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI ON THE CHURCH AND THE GERMAN REICH MARCH 14, 1937 (link)[/url]

[color="#FF0000"][b]I hold my position, even Wikipedia acknowledged that the Roman Church NEVER EVER officially condemned hitler. This is why His Holiness Pope John Paul II made a formal appology before going to Jerusalem, because none was every made and the Roman Church never ever made an official statement condemning hitler. It also was very cooperative at the state to Mussalini.[/b][/color]

Let me quote and highlight some key points:
Just to repeat: this was written two and a half years before the Germany invaded Poland (starting WWII in Europe).

Here is the text, in black-and-white, showing that the Vatican publically challenged and set itself at odds with the "aggressive paganism" of the Third Reich. And this encyclical was released when many Catholics lived and were subject to persecution by the German government.

[color="#FF0000"][b]...but it never made a declaration to condemn Hitler.[/b][/color]

Reza, you've been fed some serious anti-Catholic propoganda. I'd be interested to know who fed you these distortions and lies, if you are comfortable sharing that info.

[color="#FF0000"][b]Those particular quotes were from Wikipedia, as I'm writing this while working and don't have the time to give you ever book that I'd read.[/b][/color]

I also noticed that you keep using the term "Roman Church." As you have requested that I avoid the term "Monophysite" when describing the Coptic Church, I would ask in the same spirit that you use the term "Catholic Church" instead of Roman Church.

[color="#FF0000"][b]There's a gigantic difference between Roman Church and referring to Copts as Monophysites. Monophysitism was abolished in Coptic Egypt long before the other rites of the church, and the Romans were severely ignorant, basing their conclusion on Hersay, upon declaring Copts Monophysites. Roman Church on the other hand, hasn't been proven to be wrong and isn't based upon nothing but fact. The Roman Church is but 1/4th of the Catholic Church. Whenever the term "Catholic Church" is used, it could reference everyone of the rites, that made up The Holy Apostolic Universal Church of Jesus Christ. "Catholic Church" would be theologically wrong, based upon this history. Just as you refer to Copts as "The Coptic Church", as I'm referencing the Roman rite as "The Roman Church", as I don't see it superior but as I'd mentioned "Roman Church" isn't disrespectful, it's just saying that it's just specifically the Roman rite, not the other rites.[/b][/color]

As you know, Neither Maronites nor Byzantine Catholics nor Chaldean Catholics nor Syro-Malabar Catholics nor Melkites fit well under the term "Roman Church." The practice of adding the "Roman" to Catholic was actually begun in England during the Reformation.

[color="#FF0000"][b]Moreover, these sects of the Roman Church, ultimately belong to the Roman Church. Just as before the Etheopian Orthodox Church, the Etheopians were referred to Copts, despite being Etheopian and being Orthodox. The term "Catholic Church" could refer to the magnitues that aren't even associcated with the Roman Catholic Church, therefore in mentioning the Roman rite, I use the term "Roman Church". If you'd like, I could use the term "Roman rite" if you'd like but I'd like to specific and "Catholic Church" isn't specific.[/b][/color]

Also, sometimes your use of the term doesn't tell the whole story. For example, when you talk about the "Roman Church" persecuting Copts, the real story is that the Eastern (i.e. Greek) Byzantine Emperor supported the Melkites, who were the ones in Egypt with the Copts. That description goes a lot further to reflecting history than blaming everything on the "Roman Church."

[color="#FF0000"][b]I'd often mentioned that the Byzantines attacked the Copts, that's mentioned frequently in my posts but the Roman Church also attacked the Copts [which is why the Roman Church had the relics of St. Mark until they were later returned to the Copts]. If the Byzantines had only attacked the Copts, then it would be the Byzantines that would have had the relics of St. Mark but it wasn't, it was the Romans that had stolen the relics of St. Mark from Egypt.[/b][/color]

One last request, Reza. Could you please use quotes properly. I don't think your intermixing bold text as responses is clear to the casual reader.

[color="#FF0000"][b]I was using "proper quotes" but the problem is that this board only allows so many quotes per post, so someone [I think an administrator] had suggested me to use "bold" rather then quotes. I could use red and bold if you'd like?[/b][/color]

In addition, it is more difficult to reply, because quoted text is omitted when doing a "reply" to a post.

[color="#FF0000"][b]... but if this board only allows so many quotes, that's also a problem and much more confusing to an extent because it's terribly confusing.[/b][/color]

I generally agree with your judgment of King Abdullah II, though he's not without critics in the human rights community. His Western education included time at Oxford and Georgetown, which I believe helped expose him to a more progressive worldview.

[color="#FF0000"][b]His Father was a friend to the west also, had an american born wife, but was also viewed by other Muslims as a fornicator because of his multiple marriages.[/b][/color]

I think that his ability to be a progressive is seriously threatened by his need to avoid alienating the Jordanian people, which could result in him being deposed. I'm sure that he has no friends among radical Jihadists, given his friendly relations with Israel and the US (not to mention that his government is probably got a bunch of them in Jordanian prisons).

[color="#FF0000"][b]I'm sure that he's not without his critics in his country but Jordanians are quite different then other Islamic nations. In other Islamic Nations, if the king did something that went against those more religious clerics, those kinds would be disposed but in Jordan [according to a very close friend], Jordanians have the utmost respect for their King as genuinely believe that God sent him to their people, so they're greatly admired and the people listen to them for the most part. His wife, as you know, doesn't dress traditionally but that doesn't bother the people, as she's loved by her people.

As Iraqi's worst terrorist [who's now dead] was born in Jordan and was also hunted down by the Jordanian special forces [ultimately tipping off the US special forces to his location], the King doesn't mess around and is well protected. After the Amman Bombings, the King didn't waste time with getting his men to hunt down the terrorists and bring them to justice. Being from that area, very well educated, having connections, I'm sure that his men are pretty bad a** with their abilities to track terrorists, the US Military should invoke them more often.

In regards to Isreal, I don't know if he's a friend to them, being that Palestinians were once represented politically by Jordan, but tries for peace.[/b][/color][/quote]

Edited April 5, 2007 by RezaLemmyng

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1230320' date='Apr 4 2007, 10:57 PM']Sorry, but I just get sick of these "Hitler's Pope" lies being spread around.

And here's a recent [i]Telegraph[/i] article about recently-discovered Nazi documents that showed the Nazis considered the Pope an enemy for his aid of Jews and Poles. [url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/30/wisrael130.xml"]"'Nazi' Pope helped Jews flee Holocaust"[/url][/quote]Opps...didn't realize all this had already been said.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote]I hold my position, even Wikipedia acknowledged that the Roman Church NEVER EVER officially condemned hitler. This is why His Holiness Pope John Paul II made a formal appology before going to Jerusalem, because none was every made and the Roman Church never ever made an official statement condemning hitler. It also was very cooperative at the state to Mussalini.[/quote]Wikipedia is not the end-all source for facts. In any event, your initial quote was, "[i]The Roman Church declared Germany a "Catholic Nation" after hitler came to power. I'm talking about declaring the Roman Catholicism the official religion of Germany and it's endorsement of Germany as a whole. Here's some quotes that I found.[/i]" Now, you've changed the topic from an "endorsement of Germany as a whole" (which I disproved) to an endorsement of Hitler. For this new claim, consider two facts ([url="http://www.geocities.com/chiniquy/Hitler.html"]link[/url]):
1) Hitler was [i]ipso facto [/i]excommunicated, for the fact that he had abandoned the Catholic Faith from his youth ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs"]wiki link[/url]).
2) In the early 1930s, German bishops explicitly excommunicated all active Nazi Party members. As the leader of the Nazi party, Adolph Hitler, would be subject to this excommunication, had anyone believed that he was a Catholic.
[quote]...but it never made a declaration to condemn Hitler.[/quote]Sometimes, I think you just don't want to hear the voice of reason. Here, we've got an almost absolute dictator, and his regime is referred to as "aggressive paganism", among other extremely un-flattering descriptions. As has already been cited, Hitler knew that the Vatican was an enemy of the Nazi Regime; the Vatican knew that Hitler was an enemy of the Catholic Church. Everyone else knew these facts. It was only the Communist propoganda machine who re-wrote history to try to confuse the issue.
[quote]Those particular quotes were from Wikipedia, as I'm writing this while working and don't have the time to give you ever book that I'd read.
[/quote]Considering that your assertions have been at odds with factual history, I would ask you to support them with citations, especially when they are controversial citations. I have attempted to do this, so I'm just asking for some reciprocity.
[quote]Whenever the term "Catholic Church" is used, it could reference everyone of the rites, that made up The Holy Apostolic Universal Church of Jesus Christ. "Catholic Church" would be theologically wrong, based upon this history. Just as you refer to Copts as "The Coptic Church", as I'm referencing the Roman rite as "The Roman Church", as I don't see it superior but as I'd mentioned "Roman Church" isn't disrespectful, it's just saying that it's just specifically the Roman rite, not the other rites.[/quote]When someone says, "Catholic Church," the term is used to refer to those Christians who are in union with the Holy See. This is what we call ourselves. If you are getting into "theological" issues, then let me assure you that the upper case "Catholic" refers to Christians in union with the Pope, while lower case "catholic" is the term meaning "universal", which would be related to what you see as theologically correct.

For another example, if I say that I am not Orthodox, it is not because I believe that my beliefs are incorrect (note: Orthodox="right doctrine"). Yet, I can say I am not Orthodox; but I am orthodox.

I ask you again to respect our right to be referred to by the name that we give ourselves, and not be subject to the name that you give us. We are Catholics.
[quote]... but if this board only allows so many quotes, that's also a problem and much more confusing to an extent because it's terribly confusing.[/quote]As you may have noticed, I'm using quotes without problem. The limit is around ten. If you find yourself using more, you can always split your post.
[quote]His [Abdullah II's] Father was a friend to the west also, had an american born wife, but was also viewed by other Muslims as a fornicator because of his multiple marriages.[/quote]I don't quite understand why he would be viewed as a fornicator. How could such Muslims exempt their own prophet from such accusations?

[KnightofChrist]

Forgive the long post, but here is a time line of the Church's condemnation of the Nazis and Hilter.
[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1438"]
Source[/url]

1933 January 30, Hitler becomes Chancellor, and Germany is irrevocably changed.

The Concordat: "Damned if you do, damned if you don't." Under intense pressure from Hitler, including terrorizing members of the Catholic Center Party, Pacelli agrees to negotiate a legal agreement between Germany and the Holy See. The agreement, called a concordat, is a clever propaganda stunt by Hitler. Simply by asking the Church to negotiate, Hitler makes himself look good. Pacelli does not trust Hitler, but wants a legal basis on which to protest. Without a concordat there will be no legal grounds to appeal Nazi encroachments on the Church's freedom. The concordat defines Church rights within the greater rights of the State. Despite misgivings the concordat seems wise at the time. Cardinal Faulhaber of Munich comments: "With the concordat we are hanged, without the concordat we are hanged, drawn and quartered."

Back in Rome, Pacelli tells the British ambassador: "I had to choose between an agreement and the virtual elimination of the Catholic Church in the Reich." He says a pistol had been held to his head, and that he felt he was negotiating "with the devil himself."

Pacelli begins to make numerous formal protests against the extreme anti-Semitism of Nazism. According to Jewish scholar and historian Jeno Levai, while Secretary of State, Pacelli oversees "the dispatch of sixty notes in which the Vatican protested to Hitler against the persecution of the Jews up to the outbreak of war."

1934 Violations of the Concordat begin almost immediately after its signing, but by 1934 the attempt to bring about the "virtual elimination of the Catholic Church" is clearly underway. Dr. Erich Klausener, leader of German Catholic Action is murdered in the wild June 30, 1934 Nazi purge within and outside of the party. The harassment, arrest, and imprisonment of priests and active Catholics increases. The Nazis close some 200 Catholic publications in Germany, take over Church schools, and coerce the young into joining "Hitler Youth."

1935 Lourdes, France, at a Eucharistic Triduum Cardinal Pacelli tells an estimated 325,000 pilgrims, including many Germans, that "the Church will never come to terms with Nazis as long as they persist in their racial philosophy." He scorns Nazis theories of "race and blood" as superstitious and "contrary to the Christian faith." With such a philosophy, he declares, "the Church does not consent to form a pact at any price."

In Germany, Hermann Goering gives the rationale for crushing the Church: "Catholic believers carry away but one impression from attendance at divine services and that is that the Catholic Church rejects the institutions of the Nationalist State."

In Rome, Pacelli tells French Ambassador that Hitler is "diabolical."

1936 The cruel and oppressive anti-Semitic Nuremberg Laws are passed in Germany. In repeated broadcasts Vatican Radio condemns the injustice and inhumanity of these new laws.

1937 Cardinal Pacelli drafts the encyclical Mit brennender Sorge, issued in March by Pope Pius XI. It condemns Nazi racism and worship of the state in the Church's most authoritative form of teaching. It infuriates the Nazis, who respond with more persecution of Catholics.

In Dresden, Jewish intellectual Victor Klemperer records in his diary for May 22 the observation that "the papal pastoral," although banned in Germany, is being passed around by hand like a chain letter. Everyone seems to be reading it, he notes. Count Claus von Stauffenberg (a Catholic who will be executed because of his role in a 1944 attempt to assassinate Hitler) reads the encyclical and finds his doubts about Nazism confirmed.

1938 In a formal state visit to Italy, Hitler comes to Rome. Pius XI expresses sorrow and outrage at Mussolini's invitation. "To honor a cross [the swastika] which is not Christ's in the Eternal City" the Pope says, is an unhappy sign of Mussolini's "old anticlericalism." He refuses to meet Hitler.

Martin Bormann, a Hitler favorite and top Nazi, gives a speech: "We Germans are the first to be appointed by destiny to break with Christianity. It will be an honor for us. A thousand ties link us to the Christian faith, they will be broken at a single blow. Our intention is not to raze the cathedrals to the ground, but to fill them with a new ideology and with proclamations of a new faith."

1939 January 9, 1939. Cardinal Pacelli sends messages to the archbishops of the world asking them to try to persuade their governments to throw open their doors to the hundreds of thousands of Jews who are seeking to escape from German persecution. The next day he writes to American Cardinals asking them to intercede for exiled Jewish professors and scientists.

March 2, 1939. Cardinal Pacelli is elected Pope. He prays that he will be the Pope of Peace and calls on nations to avoid war at all costs. Calls for a peace conference at the Vatican to prevent war. The major powers are not willing to attend.

August 22. Foreign Minister Ribbentrop goes to Russia to sign the German-Russian "Non-Aggression Pact" which would lead on September I to the beginning of World War II. Hitler summons Nazi leaders and all his army commanders to inform them what to expect after the Polish army is destroyed: "Things will then happen which would not be to the taste of the German generals—the destruction of the Polish intelligentsia, in particular the priesthood, by the SS."

October 20. Pius XII issues his first encyclical, Summi Pontificatus, concerned with the oneness of human beings. In paragraph 48, dealing with the Church's openness to all, it describes St. Paul's vision of "the new man who is renewed unto knowledge, according to the image of Him that created him. Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew." The Nazis are furious.

The French are so pleased that they print 70,000 copies and have them dropped over Germany.

October 28. The New York Times sums it up in a headline, "Pope Condemns Dictators, Treaty Violators, Racism: Urges Restoring of Poland."

1940 January 23, New York Times headline reads: "Vatican Denounces Atrocities in Poland; Germans Called Even Worse Than Russians."

January 24. Manchester Guardian says "Tortured Poland has found a powerful advocate in Rome" and notes that the broadcasts of Vatican Radio warn "all who care for civilization that Europe is in mortal danger."

A group of high German officers opposed to Hitler plot to overthrow him and end the war. They secretly approach Pius XII and ask for help. The Pope, in an act that could cost him his life if discovered, agrees to contact the British and relay the desire of the Germans to open discussions which could lead to peace and prevent millions of deaths. The Pope contacts the British, but they are not interested in talking with any Germans, even Hitler opponents.

Pius XII orders publication of a large volume (565 pages). The Persecution of the Catholic Church in the Third Reich, in London (by Burns and Oates). It is a translation from the German of eye-witness accounts of the merciless Nazi program to crush the Church. It contains pastoral letters by many German bishops, and also reveals close cooperation between Catholics and Jews. On March 11, 1940 Pius confronts Foreign Minister Ribbentrop, concerning Nazi crimes in Poland against Poles and Jews. This heated confrontation is reported in the New York Times of March 14, 1940 under the headline: "Pope Is Emphatic About Just Peace: Jews' Rights Defended"

After Germany defeats France, additional thousands of Jews face seizure and deportation by Nazis. Pius XII sends a secret letter to Catholic bishops of Europe entitled Opere et Caritate ("By Work and by Love"). It instructs bishops to help all who are suffering racial discrimination at the hands of the Nazis. They are told to read the letter in their churches to remind their faithful that racism is "incompatible with the teachings of the Catholic Church."

Throughout 1940 the New York Times quotes Vatican Radio's repeated broadcasts about barbarous Nazi acts.

Christmas 1940, the Pope's Christmas Eve allocution to the Cardinals condemns the war as one of the most horrible in human history, pleads for help for those suffering and a quick peace to end the suffering.

1941 From the beginning of the war Vatican Radio has been regarded by the Nazis as anti-German, and Germans have been forbidden to listen to it. Now the order to arrest, imprison, even execute, anyone caught listening to it is more vigorously enforced.

On March 30 and 31, Vatican radio begins special broadcasts to France and Spain, speaking of "the wickedness of Hitler" and denounces Nazi racial theories and lies, "which have reached scandalous proportions."

Rabbi Chaim Lipschitz, after a 13-year study of Spanish aid, concludes (1984) that "Spain's generous acts should be engraved in gold letters." Some researchers estimate that the number of Jews the Franco government allowed to enter Spain from France to be as high as 250,000.

On April 30, in an Easter message, the Pope condemns "atrocious forms of fighting and mistreatment of prisoners and civilians."

December 25, New York Times editorial: "The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas." Pius, according to the Times, has "placed himself squarely against Hitlerism."

1942 January 20, 1942, at Wannsee, Germany: the decision for "the Final Solution" (the "extermination" of Jews) is announced at a meeting of key Nazi leaders.

March 9, 1942—a Vatican official in Slovakia warns of "an atrocious plan" to deport 80,000 Jews. Cardinal Maglione, Secretary of State, sends a strong note of protest. Slovak officials ignore the protest, saying the Jews are being sent "to work."

August 6, New York Times headline: "Pope is Said to Plead for Jews Listed for Removal from France."

Also in August, in Toulouse, France, Archbishop Jules Gerard Saliege's pastoral letter, which French police know about and demand that he withdraw, is sent to and read in all churches in his dioceses: "There is a Christian morality that confers rights and imposes duties: frightful things are taking place. The Jews are our brothers. They belong to mankind. No Christian can dare to forget that!"

The BBC broadcasts news of this. L’Osservatore Romano praises Saliege as a hero of religious courage. Vatican Radio broadcasts the letter and comments for four successive days. (As soon as the war is over. Pope Pius makes Saliege a Cardinal.)

In June in the diocese of Montauban Bishop Pierre-Marie Theas reminds Catholics: "I express the outrage of my Christian conscience. The present anti-Semitic measures mock human dignity and violate the most sacred rights of the human person and family."

In July, Emmanuel Cardinal Suhard of Paris and all the cardinals and bishops of France sign a joint protest to the Vichy government against the deportations.

Under direct instructions from the Pope, L'Osservatore Romano and Vatican Radio give full reports on all such actions.

In Holland and Belgium, bishops, "acting in consort with the Holy Father," denounce the "barbarous deportation of Jews." Results are tragic, especially in Holland. In Amsterdam, after 18,000 workers walk off their jobs to protest Nazi persecution, the Germans declare martial law and enforce it so brutally that the strike is crushed in three days.

There are more protests by Dutch bishops than anywhere else in Western Europe, yet a larger percentage of Jews in Holland are lost than anywhere else in the West. Some 100,000, or 80% of the entire Jewish population in the country, were killed by the Nazis.

August 27, New York Times: "Vichy Seizes Jews: Pope Pius Ignored."

Developments in France, Belgium and Holland produce a massive and scornful counter action from Goebbels' Propaganda Ministry. Ten million copies of a pamphlet attacking "the present pro-Jewish Pope," whose actions have caused "a lack of confidence in him in the Catholic world," were published and distributed by the Nazi Propaganda Minister.

October 11, Times of London editorial reports: "A study of the words which Pope Pius XII has addressed since his accession leaves no room for doubt. He condemns the worship of force and its concrete manifestation in the suppression of national liberties and the persecution of the Jewish race."

Christmas 1942. In his annual broadcast to the world Pius again warns against the evil of worshipping the state, the crime of forced labor, and the unspeakable horror of "the hundreds of thousands who, through no fault of their own, and solely because of their nation or race, have been condemned to death or progressive extinction."

In Germany's Reich Main Security Office, the SS control center, a careful analysis of the message is filed: "The Pope has repudiated the National Socialist New European Order. His speech is one long attack on everything we stand for. God, he says, regards all peoples and races as worthy of the same consideration. Here he is clearly speaking in behalf of the Jews and makes himself the mouthpiece of the Jewish war criminals."

1943 On February 19, Vatican Radio condemns deportations and forced labor, saying "the curse of God" will fall on those who do these things to human beings.

June 2, 1943, Pope addresses the College of Cardinals: "our soul reacts with particular emotion and pressing concern to the prayers of those who turn to us with anxious eyes of pleading, in travail because of their nationality or their race, before greater catastrophes and ever more acute and serious sorrows, and destined without any fault of their own, to exterminating harassments." He regularly uses the Latin word for race, stirps, a term commonly used to refer to those of Jewish descent. L’Osservatore Romano and Vatican Radio, as usual, give full coverage to the talk. German and Italian newspapers report the talk but omit the Pope's reference to race.

June, 1943: Vatican Radio in a broadcast to France: "He who distinguishes between Jews and other men is unfaithful to God and is in conflict with God's command."

On June 21 it broadcasts to Germany on the rights of Jews under natural law. A few days later it broadcasts to Germany a defense of Yugoslav Jews: "Every man bears the stamp of God."

Pius asks Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, Nuncio to Germany, to try to talk directly with Hitler about the persecution of Jews. After delays, Orsenigo is summoned to Berchtesgaden where Hitler receives him. The meeting observes the diplomatic amenities until Orsenigo brings up "the Jewish question." Hitler immediately turns his back, grabs a glass from the table and smashes it on the floor.

October 16. The Gestapo seizes 1007 Jews in Rome. Pius vigorously protests to German authorities. The Germans refuse to release those already seized, but stop additional mass round-ups. Approximately eighty-five percent of Roman Jews escape the Nazis, many finding refuge in Church buildings Pius had ordered opened to shelter them.

October 17, New York Times headline: "Pope Said to Help in Ransoming Jews."

December 4, New York Times headline: "Vatican Scores Germans: Denounces Decision to Intern and Strip All Jews in Italy."

1944 June 25, Pope sends open telegram to leader of Hungary pleading with him not to allow deportation of Jews.

July 21, the World Jewish Congress writes to the Pope "gratefully conscious" of his "aid on behalf of sorely afflicted and menaced Jews in Hungary, which have been followed by offer of the Regent to secure release of certain categories of Jews particularly children. His Holiness' efforts bring us new hope at the eleventh hour of saving from death the surviving remnants of decimated European Jewry."

The situation in Slovakia is similar to that in Hungary but in Slovakia the puppet ruler, Tiso, presents an added pain to the Pope. Tiso had been a priest in good standing. The Pope has this message sent to the Vatican's representative in Slovakia: "Go at once to President Tiso and, informing him of the profound distress of His Holiness for the sufferings to which so many persons are subjected against the laws of humanity and justice— because of their nationality or race. Let him know also that these injustices committed under his Government damage the prestige of his country and that the adversary exploits them to discredit the clergy and the Church in the whole world."

August. Worried about Jewish captives in the hands of Germans in Northern Italy the Pope speaks: "For centuries they have been most unjustly treated and despised. It is time they were treated with justice and humanity. God wills it and the Church wills it. St. Paul tells us that the Jews are our brothers. Instead of being treated as strangers they should be welcomed as friends."

September 1944. Even as total destruction is engulfing the Third Reich, fanatical Nazis continue to teach their children hatred of Christianity. On September 12, in Munich Gerda Bormann writes to her husband in Berlin—he is now probably the second most powerful Nazi in Germany— about her evening conversation with her children: "Through Charlemagne Christianity got a foothold in our regions. (Ten minutes ago another alert sounded in Munich.) I explained all this to Eike and Gertrud. Let's hope they grasped it."

1945 March 19. Pius declares the unspeakable carnage of the war is from "the spirit of evil which sets itself in opposition to the Spirit of God. For those who have allowed themselves to be seduced by the advocates of violence, there is but one road to salvation: to repudiate immediately and forever the idolatry of absolute nationalism, pride of origin, race and blood."

May 9, following the suicide of Hitler and the surrender of Germany, the Pope offers a short meditation: "Kneeling in spirit before the graves and rivers red with blood where lie those who fell fighting, and the victims of indiscriminate murder, starvation, or deprivation—we remember them in our prayers."

1946 August 3 In speaking with a delegation from the Supreme Council of the Arab People of Palestine desiring his support in their struggle with Jews, the Holy Father said: "It is superfluous for me to tell you that we disapprove of all recourse to force and violence, from wheresoever it comes, just as we condemned on various occasions in the past that fanatical anti-Semitism inflicted on the Hebrew people."

The following were consulted in preparing the chronology: Pierre Blet, Pius XII and the Second World War: According to the Archives of the Vatican, New York, 1999: Lucy Dawidowitz, The War Against the Jews: 1933-1945, New York. 1945: Robert A. Graham, Pius XII's Defense of the Jews, Milwaukee, 1987: Richard Hamilton, Who Voted for Hitler, Princeton, 1982; Victor Klemperer, I Will Bear Witness: A Diary of the Nazi Years, New York, 1998: Pinchas Lapide, Three Popes and the Jews, New York, 1967: Vincent A. Lapomarda, The Jesuits and the Third Reich, New York, 1989: Jeno Levai, Hungarian Jewry and the Papacy, London, 1968: Joseph Lichten, A Question of Judgment: Pius XII and the Jews, Washington, D.C.. 1963: Chaim Lipschitz, Franco Spain and the Jews, New York. 1984: Oscar Halecki and James Murray, Eugenio Pacelli: Pope of Peace, New York, 1951: Michael O'Carroll. Pius XII: Greatness Dishonored, Dublin, 1980: Charles Pichon (Jean Misrahi, trans.). The Vatican and Its Role in World Affairs, New York, 1950: Anthony Rhodes, The Vatican in the Age of the Dictators, New York. 1973.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' post='1230970' date='Apr 5 2007, 05:21 AM']Wikipedia is not the end-all source for facts. In any event, your initial quote was, "[i]The Roman Church declared Germany a "Catholic Nation" after hitler came to power. I'm talking about declaring the Roman Catholicism the official religion of Germany and it's endorsement of Germany as a whole. Here's some quotes that I found.[/i]" Now, you've changed the topic from an "endorsement of Germany as a whole" (which I disproved) to an endorsement of Hitler. For this new claim, consider two facts ([url="http://www.geocities.com/chiniquy/Hitler.html"]link[/url]):

[color="#FF0000"][b]It did endorse germany as a whole, and didn't outwardly declare hitler. Here's the facts: You can quote pro-roman sources and I could quote sources from the other side of the coin and we're never going to agree.[/b][/color]

1) Hitler was [i]ipso facto [/i]excommunicated, for the fact that he had abandoned the Catholic Faith from his youth ([url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs"]wiki link[/url]).
2) In the early 1930s, German bishops explicitly excommunicated all active Nazi Party members. As the leader of the Nazi party, Adolph Hitler, would be subject to this excommunication, had anyone believed that he was a Catholic.

[color="#FF0000"][b]I'd like to see where the German Bishops explicitly excommunicated all active Nazi Party Members but again, what about Mussalini? The Romans didn't attempt to take a stand against him initially.[/b][/color]

Sometimes, I think you just don't want to hear the voice of reason. Here, we've got an almost absolute dictator, and his regime is referred to as "aggressive paganism", among other extremely un-flattering descriptions. As has already been cited, Hitler knew that the Vatican was an enemy of the Nazi Regime; the Vatican knew that Hitler was an enemy of the Catholic Church. Everyone else knew these facts. It was only the Communist propoganda machine who re-wrote history to try to confuse the issue.

[b]What are you talking about? Pope John Paul II even appologized to the Jews for the sake that the Roman Church didn't take a bold stance against Hitler. If the Romans did, as you suggest, then His Holiness would never have had to appologize. I think that this is one of the most embarassing moments for the Roman Church, being that Germany and Italy were under control by two of the most evil dictators to ever walk the face of the earth, so it's very discomforting for them, so they attempt to cover it up.[/b]

Considering that your assertions have been at odds with factual history,

[color="#FF0000"][b]Roman History maybe, but not history as a whole, see the Roman Church doesn't write history. Are you familiar with Reichskonkordat? Do you know what it said? Do you know that it was signed by Hitler's regime and the Vatican? It would be wrong to say that Germany never made an agreement with Germany's government because that isn't the truth, the truth is that numerous documents have been signed between Hitler's Regime and the Vatican, now surely the church didn't go along with Hitler at the end, but initially it didn't say nothing about him, same goes for Mussalini.[/b][/color]

I would ask you to support them with citations, especially when they are controversial citations. I have attempted to do this, so I'm just asking for some reciprocity.

[color="#FF0000"][b]As I'd mentioned previously, I could give you 50,000 sources like Budge that testify of what I'm saying to you right now, and you could do the same on the other side of the coin and it wouldn't prove nothing. The purpose of quoting from Wikipedia is that it's a neutral source, nothing something that is for or against me. Now I'm not going to say that it's neutral 100% of the time, but generally it's the most neutral source found on the web.[/b][/color]


When someone says, "Catholic Church," the term is used to refer to those Christians who are in union with the Holy See. This is what we call ourselves. If you are getting into "theological" issues, then let me assure you that the upper case "Catholic" refers to Christians in union with the Pope, while lower case "catholic" is the term meaning "universal", which would be related to what you see as theologically correct.

[color="#FF0000"][b]That's YOUR INTERPRETATION but definately not theologically correct. The Roman Church isn't the only Holy See, it's just 1/4th of the Universal Church of Jesus Christ. You can attempt to discredit the other 3 Holy Sees that disagree with you, with your "lower case this..." propaganda but that's doesn't prove your point. As I'd mentioned the original 4 rites and Holy Sees are the Catholic Church, not just one rite that thinks it's superior but based it's so called truth about the Coptic Church on hersay. The truth is that it's the term "Catholic Church" is in reference to the church united, it isn't united, so Rome is the Roman Church, just as you refer to Copts as The Coptic Church.[/b][/color]

For another example, if I say that I am not Orthodox, it is not because I believe that my beliefs are incorrect (note: Orthodox="right doctrine"). Yet, I can say I am not Orthodox; but I am orthodox.

[color="#FF0000"][b]Doesn't prove your point, you're going to have to try harder.[/b][/color]

I ask you again to respect our right to be referred to by the name that we give ourselves, and not be subject to the name that you give us. We are Catholics.

[color="#FF0000"][b]If that's the case, then I'd like Copts to be known as The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Coptic Orthodox Church of the Holy See of St. Mark from now on, does that work for you?[/b][/color]

As you may have noticed, I'm using quotes without problem. The limit is around ten. If you find yourself using more, you can always split your post.

[color="#FF0000"][b]No thanks[/b][/color]

I don't quite understand why he would be viewed as a fornicator. How could such Muslims exempt their own prophet from such accusations?

[color="#FF0000"][b]It has to do with the fact that he divorced his previous wive, and I think that Queen Noor and him had a very "westernized" relationship prior to marrying.[/b][/color][/quote]

[Socrates]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1230591' date='Apr 4 2007, 10:42 PM']Go back and re-read my posts and you'll see that those verses, when properly translated and put into the propre context don't say anything of the sort. It's obvious that you dont now Islamic history or the Quran.

In regards to your post about the Roman Church, that isn't true. The Roman Church declared Germany a "Catholic Nation" after hitler came to power. I'm talking about declaring the Roman Catholicism the official religion of Germany and it's endorsement of Germany as a whole. Here's some quotes that I found:

[b]With the Church's strong view against Communism and its cooperation with Mussolini's fascist regime in Italy, some in the Church looked at the Nazi party as an ally at first.[/b]

[b]Hitler was never directly excommunicated by the Catholic Church and several Catholic bishops in Germany or Austria are recorded as encouraging prayers of support for "The Führer"; this despite the fact the original Reichskonkordat (1933) of Germany with the Holy See proscribed any active political participation by the priesthood.[/b]

If everyone would like a more accurate interpretation of mainline Islam, why not go to the horses mouth: King Abdullah II speaking at a Catholic University [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5z6cmC7dys"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5z6cmC7dys[/url]

Reza[/quote]
You can look those passages up in that U of MI translation on the web. Somebody once provided a bunch of different translations, but they all seemed to be saying the same thing. I think these passages speak pretty plainly. Of course, if you can provide "properly translated" versions of these passages "put into context," you are more than welcome to do so.

However none of this changes the fact that Islam was initially spread by the sword. Did Mohammed and his immediate successors not properly understand the Qu'ran? The first century of the history of Islam is anything but peaceful and non-violent.

As concerns the Vatican and the Nazis, I think Mateo and KnightofChrist have done more than enough to refute your insinuations that the Vatican was pro-Nazi or that the Nazis were Catholic. It is quite clear from these many historical sources that the Catholic Church was in no way supportive or sympathetic to Nazism or its goals. And apparently that 1937 Encyclical clearly condemning Nazism is not "official" enough for your tastes. All you have been able to provide are some rather vague quotes from Wikipedia.

That there may have been some traitors in the German Church (which was in a very difficult wartime situation, caught between Nazi tyranny at home, and an equally evil Communist enemy) is a far cry from the Church endorsing Nazism (which you seemed, at least initially to imply). In fact, German resistance to Hitler was greatest in Catholic, rather than Protestant, parts of Germany. It seems as though you are simply determined to use whatever you can get ahold of to slander the "Romans."

[mortify]

I thought the thread was about Jihad, how did we end up on Catholicism?

Why is it you can't raise a real issue without someone twisting it to somehow center on Christianity? Friends, Jihad is a serious issue, we ought to recognize the very real threat that exists in this world. I can assure you when the Muslims are among themselves criticizing us they are not bringing up the flaws in their history.

Time to wake up and smell the jihad.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1231813' date='Apr 5 2007, 08:31 PM']You can look those passages up in that U of MI translation on the web. Somebody once provided a bunch of different translations, but they all seemed to be saying the same thing. I think these passages speak pretty plainly. Of course, if you can provide "properly translated" versions of these passages "put into context," you are more than welcome to do so.

[color="#FF0000"][b]I'm not saying that the Quran doesn't have scriptures that are "troubling" if you don't know the context, what I'm saying is that you've got put them into the proper context [which is what was stated over and over again in previous posts, but you refuse to read]. Surely the Quran has a verse that instruct it's believers to kill infidels but the Bible also has verses that say to kill the unbeliever [read Numbers, it's full of scriptures] but what is the proper historical context? The proper historical context is the most important part and if you're just going to randomly quote scriptures but not study the context behind them but rather take them out of context, it doesn't prove anything except that you havn't done the research.[/b][/color]

However none of this changes the fact that Islam was initially spread by the sword. Did Mohammed and his immediate successors not properly understand the Qu'ran? The first century of the history of Islam is anything but peaceful and non-violent.

[color="#FF0000"][b]Quranic history is much more complex then that, and that isn't exactly the truth. [/b][/color]

As concerns the Vatican and the Nazis, I think Mateo and KnightofChrist have done more than enough to refute your insinuations that the Vatican was pro-Nazi or that the Nazis were Catholic. It is quite clear from these many historical sources that the Catholic Church was in no way supportive or sympathetic to Nazism or its goals. And apparently that 1937 Encyclical clearly condemning Nazism is not "official" enough for your tastes. All you have been able to provide are some rather vague quotes from Wikipedia.

[color="#FF0000"][b]If that's how you see it, but given how you see Islamic doctrine, and it's history, it's pointless arguing with you.[/b][/color]

That there may have been some traitors in the German Church (which was in a very difficult wartime situation, caught between Nazi tyranny at home, and an equally evil Communist enemy) is a far cry from the Church endorsing Nazism (which you seemed, at least initially to imply). In fact, German resistance to Hitler was greatest in Catholic, rather than Protestant, parts of Germany. It seems as though you are simply determined to use whatever you can get ahold of to slander the "Romans."

[color="#FF0000"][b]No I didn't slander nobody, I simply pointed out that you shouldn't be so prejudice against Muslims, making very accusational statements against an entire demographic, without seeing the stains in your own history.[/b][/color][/quote]

[mortify]

Oh pleez! I wish you people were as willing to look past the faults of Christians

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1231962' date='Apr 3 2007, 09:59 AM']This demographic isn't based upon nothing but your own mind.[/quote]

Actually it's not at all.
Many articles I have read have suggested numbers from 7% - 17% of the world's Muslim population are of the extremist “militant.”
aka: they are Islamofascists.
10% seems to be the consensus estimate held by most, including your friends Daniel Ali, Robert Spencer, and [url="http://www.danielpipes.org/article/66"]Daniel Pipes[/url].

When asked the “how many” question former PLO terrorist Walid Shoebat says 15% of the world's Muslims are stricltly Militant Islam.
He went on to say [i]“1.2 billion Muslims out there with 15% ...this is a huge number. This is as big as the United States of America. The bad thing about it is that they are spread all throughout (the world).”[/i]

[KnightofChrist]

Again forgive the allll post, here is a timeline of Islam. It is backed with footnotes...

[url="http://www.howardbloom.net/militant_islam_timeline.htm#_edn76"]SOURCE[/url]


624 Jihad allowed.[i] Mohammed leads or commands 65 military campaigns in ten years.[ii]

624 Mohammed leads and commands the Battle of Badr[iii] against the Meccans. Allah tells Mohammed, ""It behoveth not a prophet that he should have captives until he hath greatly slaughtered in the land."[iv]”[v] Some sources say that 22 prisoners are beheaded “by the hand of Ali”.[vi]

625 Mohammed leads and commands the Battle of Uhud[vii]

626 Mohammed command the “action against Banu Nazair”[viii]

627 Mohammed leads and commands the battle of the Trench[ix]

C. 627 Mohammed declares that Jews are “are a people without understanding…transformed into apes and swine…racing each other in sin and rancor…. Evil indeed are their works.”[x] This is the point, according to modern Islamic extremists, at which a worldwide war between Jews and Moslems began.

627 The arch angel Gabriel, speaking on behalf of Allah orders Mohammed to command an attack against the Jewish Banu Quraiza. After the Banu Quraiza surrendered, all the men were beheaded, the women and children taken as slaves, and the property distributed as booty.[xi], [xii], [xiii]

629 Mohammed leads and commands the Battle of Khaibar[xiv]

629 Mohammed sends out his “invitations” to the kings[xv]

629 Mohammed commands a troop of 3,000 to attack Mootah[xvi], the first attack of Islam against an Arab-Christian outpost of the Byzantine Empire[xvii]--and the first excused by the deliberate instigation of Mohammed’s “invitations”

630 Mohammed leads the Conquest of Mecca[xviii]

630 The Battle of Hunayn—the last battle Mohammed led personally. Though the battle was an embarrassment for the Moslems, Mohammed stayed on the field after most others had fled and continued to rally his fleeing troops to return to the field of battle.[xix], [xx],[xxi]

631 Expedition to Tabuk[xxii]

632 Mohammed, on his deathbed, orders Usama to head north and attack the Syrian province of the Byzantine Empire[xxiii]

632 Mohammed’s death

632-661 The reign of four men, four caliphs, whose example must be followed by true Moslems—Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali, the “companions of the prophet”, the founding fathers of Islam. All were warriors and conquerors

633-640 Muslim Arabs conquered Syria[xxiv]

634 Battle of the Bridge—beginning of conquest of Iraq[xxv]

637 Battle of Al-Qadisiyyah—Arabs defeat Sasanian Persians and sack their capital Ctesiphon, the home base of Nestorian Christianity—conquest of most of Iraq[xxvi]

637 Conquest of Christian and Jewish Jerusalem[xxvii]

642 The battle of Navahand[xxviii]—Islam completes its conquest of Persia/Iran and Iraq[xxix] and eases its conquest of India and Egypt, and Afghanistan

639-642 The Arab conquest of Egypt, only some 20 years after the rise of Islam[xxx]

640 Islam begins to penetrate Sudan.

642 Afghanistan—“The Muslim conquest of Afghanistan began in the 7th cent.”[xxxi] With the defeat of the Sassanid Persians at the Battle of Navahand.

642-705 The conquest of North Africa—the Maghreb (Libya, Tunisia, Morocco, and Algeria)[xxxii]

c. 650-c. 950 Arabs and Persians establish trading posts in Somalia.

674 Islam establishes colony in Sumatra

705 The Jewish Western Sudanese Queen Dahia-Al Kahina,[xxxiii] dies after fighting against the Arab incursion in North Africa, driving the Arab army northward into Tripolitania. Other wives of African kings committed suicide to avoid falling into the hands of the Berbers and Arabs who showed no mercy to the people who would not be converted to Islam.

711-712 Moslem traders and invaders bring Islam to India and Pakistan at Sind.[xxxiv], [xxxv], [xxxvi]

711-713 Conquest of Spain and short-term occupation of southwestern France[xxxvii] in 711, a Muslim Berber army under Tarik ibn Ziyad[xxxviii] crossed the Strait of Gibraltar into Spain, Roderick, the last Visigothic king, was defeated, and his kingdom collapsed.[xxxix]

718 Moslem invasion of Aquitaine[xl] and Provence.[xli]

732-733 Charles Martel defeats Saracens at battle of Tours, France[xlii]

750 Islam penetrates southeast Asia through Aceh[xliii]

751 Battle of Talas—Islam vs China—Islam wins against China’s Imperial Army as that Army tries to take Kabul and Kashmir[xliv]

c. 750 Arabs begin to use the area of Mombassa—before that city exists-- as an export center for ivory and slaves.

c. 750 “The call of Islam reached Central Asia and South Caucasus Mountains in the eighth century. At that time the whole of Central Asia(except Northern part of Kazakhstan) and Caucasus came under Muslim Rule.”[xlv]

800 Islamic traders in Kenya intermarry with local girls.

900 Arabs control most of Northwest India.[xlvi]

900s--Mogadishu in Somalia still "consisted of a loose federation of Arab and Persian families"[xlvii]

922 Volga Bulgaria is converted to Islam by Baghdad missionary Ahmad ibn Fadlan.[xlviii]

c. 950 More Arabs arrive in Aceh, Indonesia[xlix]

979-1030 Mahmud of Ghazna—an Afghan Moslem-- attacks India repeatedly, destroys temples, forces conversions to Islam, and carries off slaves and booty[l]

c. 1050 Moslem, Japanese, and Chinese merchant ships begin to raid the coasts of the Philippines.[li]

c. 1050 Islamic traders establish the port of Mombassa in Eastern Africa. It’s prime exports? Ivory and slaves.

c. 1050 Islamic conquests in Nigeria.

1071 Byzantine defeat at Manzikert. Turkey—the breadbasket of the Byzantine empire, taken by Moslems.[lii]

1164 Saladin mounts three campaigns against the Crusaders.[liii]
1174 Saladin conquers Damascus

1200 Turks reach Bengal and turn it into an Islamic center by converting Hindus[liv]. [lv]

1200s Mogadishu in Somalia turns from a territory run by a loose coalition of Arab and Persian families to a Sultanate run by the Fakhr ad-Din dynasty[lvi]

1250 Aceh becomes first foothold and Sultanate of Islam in the Indonesian archipelago[lvii], [lviii]

1250???-1571 Islamic traders establish trading cities, sultanates, in the Philippines…Manila is one of them.[lix]

1326 The Chagatayid Khan Tarmashirin converts to Islam. In the Chagatai Khanate, Tarmashirin converts to Islam. Chagatai Khanate= the five Central Asian states and Northern Iran[lx] his conversion paved the way to the overall Islamization of the Chaghadaids Arabic, Persian, and Turkic sources stress the importance of his islamization to the establishment of Islam among the Mongols of the Chaghadaid Khanate, (1) some of these same sources simultaneously suggest that the rebellion against Tarmashirin that resulted in his depositon was caused by his Islamic policies. (2) Was Tarmashirin, then, both the one who brought Islam to the Chaghadaids and the victim of his own success?[lxi]

1330 Oz Beg (Uzbek), Khan of the Golden Horde, converts to Islam, spreading Islam through most of central and northern Asia—from Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan and Kirghizia to Siberia[lxii]--often by continuing and consolidating Genghis Khan’s conquests in the form of what the conquered and subjugated Russians called a holy war[lxiii]

1331 Ibn Battutah, the great traveler from Algeria, visits Mombassa.

c. 1350 “In the 14th cent. Arab traders from Malay and Borneo introduced Islam into the southern islands [of the Philippines] and extended their influence as far north as Luzon.”[lxiv]

1389 Moslem Turks defeat the Hungarians at Kosovo and begin gobbling the Balkans and parts of Eastern Europe[lxv]

1396 Turks take Nikopol, a key trade and mining center in the Ukraine[lxvi]

c. 1400 Moslem raiding parties from the Southern Philippine sultanates establish the practice of raiding the Philippines northern islands for slaves.[lxvii] The daughters of the slaves are encouraged to convert to Islam and to marry Islamic Moros. Moslem Filipinos, some converted by Arab missionaries from cities like Baghdad, establish a practice of regular raiding—“piracy”.

1400 King of Malacca (Melaka) converts peacefully to Islam and takes the Malay Peninsula with him. The benefit—Malacca becomes the world’s greatest trade center.[lxviii], [lxix]

c. 1414-1450 King of Malacca extends his sway over Malay Peninsula, Mindanao, and Singapore.

1405 Sufi traders inject Islam even further into the Philippines[lxx]

1444 Turks take Varna—an East Bulgarian ship making and trading center on the Black Sea[lxxi]

1457 Royal Court of Kingdom of Patani covering the 3 modern Thai provinces of Pattani, Yala and Narathiwat[lxxii], converts to Islam.[lxxiii]

c. 1450-1550 Arab migration to Indonesia spreading from base of Sumatran colony.

1453 Moslem conquest of Constantinople by Sultan Muhammad.[lxxiv]

1463 Ottoman Turks conquer Bosnia.

1509 The second Portuguese viceroy of the Indian Ocean, Alfonso de Albuquerque, learned that Malacca was both a stronghold of Islam and the key to the spice trade, so in 1509 he sent four ships to check out the port. If he wanted an incident with the Malays he got one; while the Portuguese were touring the city the sultan ordered his guards to attack them, killing sixty men and destroying one ship before the rest got away. One officer who distinguished himself in this battle was Ferdinand Magellan.[lxxv]

1511 Two years later Albuquerque personally led a fleet of nineteen ships to Malacca. The Malaccan force outnumbered the Portuguese by a factor of 15 to 1, but the superior technology of Portuguese ships and cannon prevailed, and Malacca fell after a six-week siege. To prevent any trouble with the powerful mainland states to the north (remember Siam's claim to all of Malaya), Albuquerque immediately sent embassies to Ayutthaya and Pegu, and diplomatic relations with both kingdoms got off to a good start. Afterwards Portugal sent expeditions to the Moluccas (1512), China (1513), and Japan (1543), securing trade with all of those places.

[lxxvi]

1518 Barbarossa becomes admiral of the seaborne Jihad—the Mediterranean Islamic fleet.

1526 Battle of Panipat establishes Moghul dominance of Delhi and Agra, creating the base for a Moghul Empire in India that would last until 1857[lxxvii]

1526 Pest, in Hungary, falls to the Turks[lxxviii]

1530 onward the Somali Imam Ahmed Ibraham al-Ghazi pulls off many a victory in trying to take Christian Abyssinia. The Abyssinians call on the Portuegese for help.[lxxix]

1530-1780 In the opinion of Dr. Mohsin Farooqi, “Europe [was] under Muslim Rule.” More than a million Europeans are taken as slaves by the Islamic Navy of Jihad from Sicily, Cornwall, Ireland, Lundy (which the Moslems conquered and established as an Islamic base), the north Devon coast, the south and west coasts of England, the coast of France and Brittany, Ile de Groix, the Biscay coast, Portugal, and Spain.[lxxx], [lxxxi] Slaves had a higher market value in the Islamic world at the time than plunder.[lxxxii], [lxxxiii], [lxxxiv] “Father Pierre Dan, a priest who negotiated ransoms, described the selling of an Irish family at the slave mart. ‘It was a piteous sight to see them exposed for sale at Algiers…when they parted the wife from the husband, and the father from the child.’”[lxxxv]

1538 “In 1538, the Turkish Navy defeated the combined naval force of Spain, Venice (Italy) and Pope, a number of times. This made them master of Mediterranean Sea.”

1539 Sher Khan, an Afghan, defeats the Moghul Emperor Humayan and temporarily takes control of the Moghul Empire in India[lxxxvi]

1541 Buda in Hungary is conquered by the Turks[lxxxvii]

1542 the Somali Imam's troops trying to conquer Abyssinia are sent running and the Imam of Somalia leading the onslaught is killed.[lxxxviii]

1571 Battle of Lepanto--one of the biggest naval battles in history. 200 war galleys from a combined Spanish, Venetian, Italian, and papal navy, ships carrying 30,000 fighters, defeat the Islamic fleet of the Ottomans, killing or capturing 15,000 Moslem naval warriors and liberating 10,000 Christian galley slaves. The Christians destroy almost the entire Islamic Mediterranean navy. But it is speedily rebuilt and the Moslem navy returns to its position as a ruling force in the Mediterranean Sea.

1571 head of the Moslems of the Philippines is killed in Manila, possibly by Spanish imperialists

1575-1769 Redemptionist priests purchase the freedom of 15,500 Christian slaves taken in raids on European lands by the Navy of the Islamic Jihad. Most of those taken go unransomed, are beaten, bloodied, broken and are sold and resold from Algiers to Egypt, Ethiopia, Arabia, and Turkey.[lxxxix]

1575 Miguel Cervantes, author of Don Quixote, is captured as a galley slave for the Navy of the Islamic Jihad and loses the use of one hand.[xc]

1576 Bangladesh (Bengal), already in Moslem hands, is conquered by the Moghul emperor Akhbar.[xci] [xcii]

c. 1580-c. 1880 War over Philippines between Moslems and Spaniards.

1600-1700 Spain and Italy lose 20% of their population in naval raids carried out by the Islamic corsairs.[xciii]

1605 Moghul empire stretches from Afghanistan to the Deccan Plateau in India.

1622-1644 7,000 English abducted from British beaches and from ships by the Islamic Navy of Jihad.

1631 Islamic Navy of Jihad raids Baltimore in Ireland, sacking the town and capturing most of the inhabitants as slaves.[xciv], [xcv]

1640 Islamic Navy of Jihad mounts repeated attacks on Cornwall and enslaves 3,000 inhabitants in a year.

1628-1634 The Islamic Navy in the Mediterranean takes 80 French ships and enslaves 1,331 European men and women. “Beautiful women were given as gifts to the sultan, for his harem.[xcvi] Gunners, seamen, and shipbuilders were especially prized as slaves.”[xcvii]

1636 The Navy of the Islamic Jihad in the Mediterranean captures over 1,000 Englishmen in a mere six months. “When a Barbary galley drew alongside a Christian vessel, as many as 100 Janissaries swarmed aboard the Christian vessel and overpowered the crew.”[xcviii]

1650 The Sultan of Oman, Sultan bin Sayf, expels the Portuguese.[xcix]

1670 in Somalia "The Kadi administering Islamic law was at this time a Hawiye Somali whose predecessors, from about 1670, had been Sayyids from Arabia. ...The main exports were slaves, ivory, hides, horns, ghee, and gums. On the coast itself Arab divers were active collecting sponge cones. And provisions were cheap.[c]

1677 the Wolof tribes in Senegal, Gambia, Guinea Bissau and Northern Guinea on the Atlantic coast of Africa are conquered and forced to accept Islam. (http://www.wagateway.org/people.htm)

1683 Battle of Vienna--Ottoman Empire ceases to be Europe's only superpower--but becomes a major power whose influence can make or break alliances[ci]

1690 The Turks drive the Austrians out of Bulgaria and Transylvania and retake Belgrade and Nis (in Montenegro)[cii]

1717 The discovery of gold on the banks of the Oxus during the reign of Peter the Great, together with the desire of Russia to open a trade route to India, prompted an armed trade expedition to the region, led by Prince Alexander Bekovich-Cherkassky, and consisting of 4,000 men. Upon receiving the men the Khan set up camp under the pretense of goodwill, then ambushed and slaughtered the envoys, leaving ten alive to send back. Peter the Great, indebted after wars with the Ottoman Empire and Sweden, did nothing.[ciii] Before his conversion to Christianity Prince Alexander Bekovich-Cherkassky's name had been Devlet Kizden Mirza. He came from a line of Kabardian rulers. As a boy he had been stolen by Nogai tribesmen. He fell into the hands of the Russians when Russian troops under Vassily Golitsin besieged the town of Azov[civ]

1729 Moslems yank Mombassa in Kenya from Portuguese hands

1736 Nadir Shah declares himself Shah of Iran

1738 Nadir Shah invades Afghanistan and takes its capital, Kandahar. Then he invades India, attacks Delhi, and carries off unbelievable amounts of loot, including the Peacock Throne and the 108 carat Koh-i-Noor diamond[cv]

1758 Ahmad Shah loots Delhi

1764: Conversion to Islam of Areadi Gaya, ruler of Futa Toro--a Fulani area in Senegal. "Fulani consider themselves the “holder of the torch” of Islam and have historically forced other ethnic groups into Islam through “jihad.”[cvi]

1800—roughly. The Sultan of Oman becomes the "protector" of Mogadishu in Somalia.[cvii]

1804 The jihad of Usman dan Fodio establishes the Sokoto caliphate in Northern Nigeria[cviii]

1814 the governor of Mombasa invites the British to protect its indendence--and Mogadishu's-- from the Omani Sultanate.[cix]

1824 Sultan Sa'id ibn Sultan of Oman moves his capital from Muscat on the Arabian Peninsula to Zanzibar, off the east coast of Africa. Zanzibar then becomes famous for its prime export—slaves.[cx]

1828 The Brits are driven out of Mombasa, in 1828 and don't bother to return.[cxi]

1843 Somalia’s Mogadishu, in ruins because of plague and famine, is ruled by the representatives of the Sultan of Zanzibar. These representatives are "an old Arab with an Indian assistant as tax collector"[cxii]

1846 Sultan of Zanzibar controls all the Benadir ports of Eastern Africa. [cxiii]

???Bandu State in West Sudan.

1820-1862 El Hadj Umar Tal in Senegal gets his childhood education in madrassa, goes on a pilgrimage to Mecca in 1820, then becomes the Caliph of the Tijaniyya brotherhood, and mounts a jihad that conquers both black unbelievers and other small Islamic states in the neighborhood. 70,000 die in just three of his battles. But in 1862 he finally creates an empire--the Toucouleur Caliphate??--that includes Guinea and Senegal

1830-1857 Haji Shariatullah in Bengal returns from a pilgrimage to Mecca, starts a fundamentalist movement, tells the Bengalis that they are degraded and that the answer to their difficulties lies in shunning un-Islamic practices and adhering to the purity of the Koran

1828 Romania breaks free of Islamic rule.[cxiv]

1832 Slaves in Manchester, Jamaica, led by a slave named Muhammad Kaba, mount a Jihad against their masters. They are inspired by the writings on Jihad that justified the Sokoto Jihad in Nigeria[cxv]

1840 The Sultan of Zanzibar takes control of Mombassa.[cxvi]

1857 The Sultan of Zanzibar lends a boat to the English explorers Burke and Speke. Five months later they make it 600 miles inland and enter Tabora, a settlement founded by Arabs as a slave-trading depot.[cxvii] This is by no means the only Arab slave-trading town founded deep in the interior of Africa by Arab slave traders. Ujiji, on the shores of Lake Tanganyika, was another.

1865 David Livingstone sees the slaughter of between 300 and 400 villagers by slave traders and writes a vivid letter about it that creates outrage in Britain and inspires the British to stop the slave-raiding and slave-trading controlled from Zanzibar.[cxviii], [cxix]

1871 British Parliament, outraged by Stanley’s letter, threatens a naval blockade of Zanzibar and forces the Sulta to close his slave market.[cxx]

1874-1876 The Sultan of Somalia, Sultan Dhahar, attacks Christian Abyssinia and expels the Christians of Galgala, destroying their churches[cxxi], [cxxii]

1878 Daghestan, Georgia and Armenia are taken from Islamic hands,[cxxiii] presumably by Russians. Russians also take Bessarabia from Islamic hands after a Moslem rule of 600 years.[cxxiv]

1896 Italy is hungry for East African territory. The Italian Consul to Zanzibar mounts a 17-man expedition to feel out the Shebelle River in Somalia. The group is attacked by Somali tribesment and wiped out. Only three of seventeen Italians manage to return to the Consulate.[cxxv]

1897 the Italians try again and form "the Benadir Company" to control areas of Somalia. It fails in 1905. [cxxvi]

c. 1955 Moslems from Saudi Arabia and other parts of the worldwide Ummah protest the fact that the Moslem population of the Philippines has second-class status in a Christian-dominated country and pour oil dollars into the scholarships for Islamic students to study in Saudi Arabia, into the establishment of Saudi-style schools, into attendance by Philippine Moslems of international Islamic conferences, and into armaments for the Philippine’s Moslems.[cxxvii]

1960 Encouraged by the Saudis and by other Arab countries, the Moslems of the Philippines demand “independence”.

1968 Founding of The Moro National Liberation Front in the Philippines and the beginning of a battle for Moslem “autonomy” that would leave 50,000 dead, and would be backed by Libya and Iran.[cxxviii]

1976 Pakistan’s Zulfikar Ali Bhutto announces his plan to build an ‘Islamic Bomb’, “a bomb for defense of all Islamic Countries.”[cxxix]

1985 Dr. Ali Mohammed Naqvi publishes a book destined to become an Internet hit, Islam and Nationalism. In it, Naqvi outlines a philosophy of world conquest. He writes, “Nationalism divides human society into limited and independent units…But Islam addresses all of mankind as a single unit. Its system is not for a nation, but for the whole human society… It is the duty of Muslims to fight unyieldingly…until the school of God comes to dominate over the personal, social, political, economic, intellectual and religious life of man.”

c. 1983 Abdul Qadeer Khan, future father of “The Islamic Bomb”, manages to snag the complete design for a Chinese nuclear device 34 inches in diameter, the perfect size for a missile warhead. Khan obtains detailed drawings of all of the warhead’s 100 or so parts.[cxxx]

1990 The Autonomous Region Of Muslim Mindanao—including Tawitawl and Jolo-- declared in the second largest island of the Philippines.[cxxxi]

1990 In July, the Jama'at al Muslimeen under the control of Imam Yasin Abu Bakr attempts a violent coup in Trinidad and Tobago to establish a Moslem extremist state[cxxxii]. Jama'at al Muslimeen is still in business today.

1990-2005 Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, El Gamma Iji, and Islamic Jihad, set up bases in Colombia, Argentina, Paraguay, and Brazil, making converts and sending drug money to the middle east to finance their Jihads[cxxxiii]

1994 France’s Direction de Construction Naval International agrees to sell Pakistan the technology for a superstealth submarine capable of carrying sixteen cruise missiles with nuclear warheads. The sub, the Agosta 90B, has a range of 10,000 nautical miles…the distance to Europe and North America.

1996-2005 Westerners first read the word “madrassa” when this form of extremist, Saudi-backed religious school educates and graduates the leaders of Afghanistan’s Taleban. Later it turns out that the Saudis have established these “suicide bomber factories” in Bangladesh, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Russia, the Balkans, Western Europe, and North America.[cxxxiv], [cxxxv] It also turns out that the Jamia Binoria society of madrassas in Karachi, Pakistan, is attracting foreign students from 30 countries, including the US, and educating them in Saudi-style Wahabi extremism.[cxxxvi]

1997 April 13. Little-Brown in London tells Paul Fregosi it won’t print his book about Islam’s Jihad against Europe because of Islamic censorship pressures.

1998 First test of the Islamic Bomb—Pakistan’s nuclear warhead.

1998 Pakistan’s first Agosta 90b submarine is launched.

1999 The Philippine Moro National Liberation Front buys 10,000 M16 automatic rifles and grenades from North Korean dealer Lim Kyu-do. It also puts a down payment on North Korean mini-submarines.[cxxxvii]

1999 September 4, “a car bomb detonated outside an apartment building housing Russian soldiers in the city of Buinaksk, in the province of Dagestan. 64 people were killed and dozens of others were wounded. Russia blamed Chechen separatists, who would days later invade the province from neighboring Chechnya.”[cxxxviii]

1999 September 8, “300 kg to 400 kg of explosives detonated on the ground floor of an apartment building in southeast Moscow. The nine-story building was destroyed, killing 94 people inside and wounded 150 others. 108 apartments were destroyed. A caller to a Russian news agency said the blast was a response to recent Russian bombing of Chechen and Dagestan villages in response to the invasion of Dagestan.” [cxxxix]

1999 September 13, “was supposed to be a day of mourning for the victims of the previous bomb attacks. But on that day, a large bomb exploded at an apartment on Kashirskoye Highway in southern Moscow. The eight-story building was flattened, littering the street with debris and throwing some concrete hundreds of yards away. In all, 118 people died and 200 were wounded.”..” Boris Yeltsin declared a war against the "illegal military units" in Chechnya” [cxl]

1999 September 16 truck bomb “outside a nine-story apartment complex in the southern Russian city of Volgodonsk, killing 17 people.” [cxli]

2000 Islamic militants mount an intense bombing campaign in South Africa, bombing, among others, the provincial premier of Cape Town, who escaped the blast of a bomb strapped to a tree between a mosque and a community center, bombing police stations, attacking a Planet Hollywood restaurant, and injuring 48 people with a bomb in a packed pizza parlor in Cape Town.[cxlii]

2001 In response to America’s attacks in Afghanistan, Moslems activists in South Africa urge their followers to take up arms and join the jihad between Islam and the “satanic, infidel West”[cxliii], [cxliv]

2001 May 5. Muslim militants converge on the Moluccas, the spice islands of Indonesia, to defend Moslems against “a Christian conspiracy”. Thousands are killed.[cxlv]

2001 March 22 Anti-slavery groups report that there are 27 million modern slaves “From Khartoum to Calcutta, from Brazil to Bangladesh”. Most seem to be in Islamic countries.[cxlvi]

2002 In Al Qaeda's online magazine Al-Ansar, Seif Al-Din Al-Ansari writes, "The elements of the collapse of Western civilization are proliferating..., these infidel states are no more than a handful of creatures on the speck of dust called Planet Earth....Allah told us of the certainty of the annihilation of the infidels...by means of the Muslim group, which would, in accordance with the Islamic commandment...torture them...The question now on the agenda is, how is the torture Allah wants done at our hands to be carried out?"[cxlvii]

2002 Influential Sunni television star and cleric Sheikh Yousef Al-Qaradhawi joins other Sheiks in issuing a fatwa that declares, "... The Prophet Muhammad was asked: 'What city will be conquered first, Constantinople or Romiyya?' He answered: 'The city of Heracles will be conquered first' - that is, Constantinople... Romiyya is the city called today 'Rome,' the capital of Italy. The city of Heracles [later to become Constantinople] was conquered by the young 23-year-old Ottoman Muhammad bin Morad, known in history as Muhammad the Conqueror, in 1453. The other city, Romiyya, remains, and we hope and believe [that it too will be conquered]. …This means that Islam will return to Europe as a conqueror and victor, after being expelled from it twice - once from the South, from Andalusia, and a second time from the East, when it knocked several times on the door of Athens."[cxlviii]

2002 Pakistan launches its first home-made Agosta 90B nuclear missile-carrying sub, built with French technology in the Karachi shipyard by Pakistani engineers and craftsmen.

2003 Captain Iftikhar Riaz Qureshi, commander of both of Pakistan’s Agosta 90b nuclear-capable subs, writes in the Pakistani Daily Mail that the subs are meant for “second strike capability”. In other words, they were purchased specifically to carry nuclear weapons.[cxlix] Qureshi also explains that Pakistan’s ability to build and to enhance Agosta 90bs in its own shipyards will allow its construction program “construction program to fulfill our needs and the needs of our friends”. And he announces that Pakistan’s third Agosta 90b—its second constructed in the Karachi Naval Shipyard--will be launched “within the next three years”.

2003 June 5 Two female suicide bombers detonate themselves at a rock concert near Moscow killing 14.

2003 October 23. Roughly 1,000 audience members are taken hostage when mahahedin chanting, “We love death more than you love life” take over an entire Moscow theater—the Dubrovka. 130 die.

2003 Police in the Indian hill resort of Kud arrest a young driver and his girlfriend—couriers carrying $100,000 in American donations to finance a never-ending Jihad in Kashmir.[cl]

2003 The US seizes “the BBC China, a freighter bearing centrifuge parts made in Malaysia, along with other products of Dr. [A.Q.] Khan's [nuclear] network, all bound for Libya.” Libya fesses up and hands over its nuclear skunk works.[cli]

2003 Dr. A.Q. Khan, father of the Islamic Bomb and a national hero in Pakistan, is put under house arrest. An initial spate of information indicates that Khan has been selling nuclear technology he acquired in Europe to North Korea and Libya and shipping materials through Malaysia.

2004 American intelligence officials are shocked to discover that Khan’s nuclear network goes much farther than they thought. In fact, it has “tendrils…in more than 30 countries” including Afghanistan, Egypt, Iran, Ivory Coast, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Niger, Nigeria, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia and the United Arab Emirates. Credible reports say that during his trip to Afghanistan, Khan met face-to-face with Osama bin Laden. Intelligence officials wonder, “what other countries, or nonstate groups, beyond Libya, Iran and North Korea, received what one Bush administration official called Dr. Khan's ‘nuclear starter kit’”--buy a hundred million dollars worth of nuclear equipment and Khan throws in the design for a thoroughly-tested nuclear warhead for free. The suspected list of customers includes Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Algeria, Kuwait, Myanmar and Abu Dhabi.

2004 Three highly articulate, intelligent, British-born Moslems who were part of a crowd shouting, “Make way for Islam, we want Islam”, tell a CNN interviewer that their Islam, “Is not just a hatred for America it is a hatred for the whole of western philosophy and western civilization, freedom, democracy, human rights, international law, all of these fake concepts that have been passed to us and behind that we have been oppressed, it is a hatred of all of this."[clii]

2004 Iranian Revolutionary Guards intelligence theoretician Hassan Abbassia tapes a speech discussing an Iranian “strategy drawn up for the destruction of Anglo-Saxon civilization.” He explains that, “There are 29 sensitive sites in the U.S. and in the West. We have already spied on these sites and we know how we are going to attack them.”[cliii]

2004 The ancient Islamic imperative to holy war is still alive in Southeast Asia. Sunanda K. Datta-Ray, a former editor of The Statesman in India, writes that, “The rebels in Southeast Asia's three main trouble spots - southern Thailand, the southern Philippines and Indonesia's Aceh Province - are Malay Muslims, … Muslims with ancient grievances. …the disturbances look like part of a global Muslim upsurge. The Moro Liberation Front in the Philippines speaks for Mindanao, whose 34 sultanates dated back to the 15th century and once extended to northern Borneo. They fought the Spanish for 300 years and resisted the Americans after 1899.” [cliv]

2004 A long-term jihad in Central Asia and Russia drags on with the siege of a school in Beslan, the terrorist downing of two Russian airliners—94 passengers killed. and a suicide bombing in Moscow.[clv]

2004-2005 Arab Janjaweed tribesmen prey on the black Islamic population of their own country—the Shariah-run nation of Sudan.[clvi] “Janjaweed, Arab militias armed by the government, have carried out ethnic cleansing, systematic rape”[clvii] and enslavement.[clviii], [clix]

2004 In Amsterdam, a 26-year-old Dutch Moroccan shoots filmmaker Theo Van Gogh while Van Gogh is bicycling. He slashes Van Gogh’s throat, repeatedly stabs the body, then drives a knife to the hilt into the corpse, using it to pin down a five-page “open letter” that predicts the downfall of the “infidel enemies of Islam” and stating, “I know definitely that you, Oh America, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Europe, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Netherlands, will go down.”[clx]

2004 March 11 thirteen bombs on commuter trains triggered to go off simultaneously at height of Madrid rush hour. Ten go off. Responsibility is claimed by al Qaeda in Europe.

2004 In March, British arrest 8 Moslems in Leeds 17-32 years old with large amounts of ammonium nitrate—possibly an attack in the planning stage.

2004 January 4 30 armed mujahedin storm military armory and steal 380 M-16s in Narathiwat, Southern Thailand. Meanwhile 18 schools are set afire.[clxi]

2004 April 28. 112 killed when machete armed teenage mujahedin wearing red headbands and black t-shirts with Islamic slogans attack a dozen police posts in 3 provinces in Southern Thailand.[clxii] Their goal: to steal guns. Battle goes on for 8 hours. “they have shown ... that they are willing to die, simply to fight against Buddhist officials…” said Sunai Phasuk, a Bangkok political analyst. ''They fought with knives and swords, fully understanding that the police will be ready and waiting for them with M-16 rifles.”[clxiii]

2004-2005 The jihad in Southern Thailand kills 860 in 18 months. The area was once the Sultanate of Pattani and has its own language. Vendors sell CDs of beheadings with titles like “Jihad in Chechnya 2000”. Local beheadings run rampant. Buddhist monks slashed to death & temples bombed. Grocers are threatened for selling pork.

2005 February 14 With assassination of Lebanon’s former prime minister and culture hero Rifik Hariri and Iraqi elections January 30, 2005, that produce a surprisingly huge turnout, pro-democracy demonstrations and movements break out in Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Kuwait, Yemen, and Bahrain. George Bush’s pro-democracy thrust is cited in nearly every Islamic publication that covers the story. But does democracy reduce war? The War of 1812 took place between two democracies, the US and England.

2005 The Islamic website Islamic World—the Official Website of the Khilafah Institute, declares, “It is our firm belief that the unique social and historical conditions of our time, combined with new knowledge in the fields of science and technology, make it not only possible but highly likely that within a generation or so we will live in a fully and truly Islamic World.”

2005 The forces of Al-Qaeda in Europe work to make those words a reality by bombing rush hour commuter trains and one bus in England.

2005 July 7, London 4 bombings—3 in subways & 1 on a double-decker bus kill 54 people. One suspected bomber was born in Jamaica and grew up in England. Another is a Cairo-born student who studied biochemistry and chemical engineering at the undergraduate and graduate level in the US. Several kilos of ammonium nitrate are found in one of his two apartments—a “bomb factory” in Leeds. One suspect, Hasib Hussain is 18 yrs old, comes from a modest neighborhood in Leeds, was a cricket and soccer player, but was taken off the college track by his teachers and the cricket pitch on which he played with his team was shut down. He turned to Islam. Two bombers have made trips to Pakistan that apparently changed their lives. Another, 22-year-old Shahzad Tanweer, was born in Bradford, England, came from an upper middle-class family that owned a chip shop, was proud to be British, played cricket the week before the attack, but went to Pakistan to learn the Koran by heart and may have visited a militant Islamic private school for the wealthy and the planner of a Pakistani grenade attack that killed five. The Secret Organization Group of Al Qaeda of Jihad Organization in Europe claims credit.[clxiv]

2005 July 14 60 muhahedin attack the regional capital of Yala in Thailand, killing 2, injuring 22, plunging city into darkness by targeting electrical transformers, a restaurant, 2 convenience stores, a hotel, and the railway station. With fire bombs, explosives, and guns. A few days earlier a school headmistress is murdered & 2 Buddhist women are beheaded.

[Mercy me]

Don't forget
2004 Sept 1-4 In Breslan Russia Islamic terrorists took 1200 people, mostly children hostage when they attacked an elementary school. 339 people were killed when the Russian official rushed the building and the terrorists detonated the gymnasium where they were holding the hostages.

edit - to correct date

Edited April 6, 2007 by Mercy me

[RezaMikhaeil]

Being that I just don't have the time, I'm not going to go through your dates, but I'm going to say that there's more to the story then that. If I went through every time in history that Romans did something evil as such, the list could be much longer but I'm not going to play your game. I'm just going to say that you don't know about the Quran or Islam's doctrines and don't like it when people judge Roman Catholicism based upon a bad segment of history, so you shouldn't be so bias to do that with other's religion.

Reza

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1232108' date='Apr 6 2007, 01:18 AM']Being that I just don't have the time, I'm not going to go through your dates, but I'm going to say that there's more to the story then that.[/quote]

Of course theres more to history than one post, but to summarize history, Islam typically spreads by threat of and often fulfillment of war. Whilst Christianity typically spreads by an oppose means. Not always true yes, but typically the case.

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1232108' date='Apr 6 2007, 01:18 AM']If I went through every time in history that Romans did something evil as such, the list could be much longer but I'm not going to play your game.[/quote]

Such an list could also be made for most any faith, even Orthodox. But I doubt such a list could be longer, Christianity typically does not spread by war, Islam typically does. Could a modern list of Christianity be longer than that of Jihadist? No.

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1232108' date='Apr 6 2007, 01:18 AM']I'm just going to say that you don't know about the Quran or Islam's doctrines and don't like it when people judge Roman Catholicism based upon a bad segment of history, so you shouldn't be so bias to do that with other's religion.[/quote]

Being that your judgment of Catholicism based on actions of the Church in WWII, are wrong, perhaps you too should take this advance.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1232118' date='Apr 6 2007, 01:02 AM']Of course theres more to history than one post, but to summarize history, Islam typically spreads by threat of and often fulfillment of war. Whilst Christianity typically spreads by an oppose means. Not always true yes, but typically the case.

[color="#FF0000"][b]What about in America? In America Islam is the fastest growing religion and of every 5 people, 4 of them are women.[/b][/color]

Such an list could also be made for most any faith, even Orthodox. But I doubt such a list could be longer, Christianity typically does not spread by war, Islam typically does. Could a modern list of Christianity be longer than that of Jihadist? No.

[color="#FF0000"][b]I'd agree that even Orthodox have their problems, I mean I definately wouldn't subscribe to most of the actions of Byzintines but I'd have to disagree with you on the issue of Jihadists. Most of the so called "Jihadists" aren't doing so in the name of Islam but politics. As in Palestine, it's true that some people use religion to justify suicide bombers but it's a political move more then a religious one. Just as in Lebanon, Hezbollah was making a political statement with their war against Isreal, not nessessarily a religious one. Moreover, you've got to seperate the difference between people doing things in the name of Christianity and Islam that aren't nessessarily of those groups. Some of the greatest serial killers in America have done so in the name of God and Christianity but were they Christians? I wouldn't say so...[/b][/color]

Being that your judgment of Catholicism based on actions of the Church in WWII, are wrong, perhaps you too should take this advance.

[color="#FF0000"][b]Wrong according to you and other Romans, but again I'm not going to get into this. My point was simple, you don't like people lumping every action of the roman church with every person in the roman church, so you shouldn't do it with Islam. My intentions were never to discuss the Roman Church during WWII, but to make the point that Romans have some dirt on their history, as do Muslims and that we should judge the religion according to its doctrines.[/b][/color][/quote]