Jihad Is A Much Larger Threat Than Nazism

[cathoholic_anonymous]

I understand Reza's position. I used to get accused of being an undercover Muslim on another forum where I tried to correct misconceptions about Islam, even though I repeatedly stated that I am a Catholic. I left because no one would believe me. They had already decided what Islam was. They had no interest in the experiences of someone who grew up in Saudi Arabia, lived in Muslim communities, and can actually read the Qu'ran in the original.

No one who genuinely wants to learn about Islam should read books by Robert Spencer. The man is a charlatan. Someone actually gave me a copy of [i]The Politically Correct Guide to Islam[/i] once, presumably under the impression that I could hardly fail to be bowled over by such stupendous scholarship. That book is riddled with mistakes. It is to Islam what a Chick tract is to Catholicism. Daniel Pipes, affectionately known as 'Leaky Pipes' amongst my Muslim friends, is also a classic example of Who Not to Read.

Before people rush to endorse the likes of Daniel Ali and Ibn Warraq, these 'former Muslims', let's remember the 'former Catholics' who have posted in this debate forum. I really hope that no one would look to them for an accurate explanation of what Catholicism stands for.

[Budge]

Islam is a false religion founded by a demon...a false angel of light that appeared to Mohammed. "allah" of Islam is NOT "God"

However saying that the poor Islamic people are in bondage to this false religion and need the gospel, they do not need interfaith platitudes. They need a road out of the darkness they are in due to a false religion that subverts love and peace even in their earthly lives.

Islam does teach them false things, and things like lesser treatment of women--diferent shades depending on what sect, and a capricious god of conditions. {Ive read the Koran} and terrible things regarding "infidels", Isalm DOES NOT teach LOVE THY ENEMY. The treatment of Jews is horrendous. the Bible does warn about the descendants of Ishamel who shall be as "wildmen". Bible Prophecy makes it clear the show down beween Islam and Israel WOULD OCCUR.

We should be depositing BIbles and missionaries on the Middle East not endless bombs but sadly I know the outcome of where this is all going. Many jewish people are going to die--when Israel is attacked..many people in the Middle East too, I believe the world is ON the brink of WWIII.

However saying that, Islamic people ARE being demonized in the West, protrayed as all being terrorists. I know most Islamic people are NORMAL people who just wnat to make a living and raise their children. While there are terrorists and certainly their religion preaches false messages to hate Israel and more, most are normal people When the Iraq war began I thought of all the people who were going to get blown up and die. People in America pictured Iraq as everyone living in tents or something, no they had a modern nation with cars, with office buildings and even amusement parks.

I get tired of the drumbeats of war and have been utterly disgusted by so called "Christians" who say garbage like "NUKE THE MIDDLE EAST" and other such garbage. I believe the powers of evil are leading the world into WWIII. The preachers who call for war and nuking are NOT speaking from the spirit of God but ANOTHER SPIRIT. {same as when Jesus rebuked the apostles who wanted to call down fire on those who rejected the gospel} Alice Baily and her Spirit Masters praised the Bomb for a reason.

[Budge]

Longue Daddy is a typical Republican who has been utterly trained to villify all Islamics while ignoring those who are destroying our country right within its borders.

Throughout world history a group of people are chosen and villified and dehumanized. I believe this DEFINITELY has happened with Islamics despite my grave concerns about the false teachings of that religion and what it preaches in regards to Jews and Christians.

I dont see Christians in the West with rare exceptions even attempting to convert the Muslims but we have those on one side with their interfaith platitutdes and those on the other side, whove written all of them off, want them all destroyed seemingly and listen more to FOX NEWs then they do the Bible regarding enemies.

The Muslim religion is NOT the only religion that has committed war against others, Reza is right about the Buddhists and others. Hindus even have committed violence against Christian missionaries.

Jesus Himself preached against crusades, inqusitions and more, when he rebuked the apostles I mention above, and there is a verse in the Bible about evil doers who will believe they are "killing" for God, that one definitely fits Inquisition.

So even when dominionist Republican evangelicals give out the NUKE MECCA line, they are IN THAT VERY ERROR, the same place with the apostles here.

Luk 9:53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.

Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw [this], they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

[b]Luk 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Luk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save [them]. And they went to another village.[/b]
[quote]I do have a quarrel with the only religion that is lead by so many people calling for the death of anyone who doesn't agree with it.
This is a religion founded by death, and built upon death. It has a history of nothing but death and slavery.[/quote]

So why call for DEATH FROM YOUR SIDE Lounge?

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1226977' date='Apr 2 2007, 09:45 AM']No one who genuinely wants to learn about Islam should read books by Robert Spencer. The man is a charlatan. Someone actually gave me a copy of [i]The Politically Correct Guide to Islam[/i] once, presumably under the impression that I could hardly fail to be bowled over by such stupendous scholarship. That book is riddled with mistakes. It is to Islam what a Chick tract is to Catholicism.[/quote]I haven't read the "Politically Incorrect Guide" book, but I did read the "Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics", which was co-authored by Spencer and Daniel Ali. Personally, I didn't see an overt attempt to distort Islam or quote its sources out of context. I would be open to seeing a list of key distortions or errors you could find in that book (i.e. "Inside Islam") or a link to such a list.

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1226977' date='Apr 2 2007, 09:45 AM']Daniel Pipes, affectionately known as 'Leaky Pipes' amongst my Muslim friends, is also a classic example of Who Not to Read.[/quote]He's not really discussing theological issues, which may be why I've never read his books. His books seem more focused on "clash of civilizations" stuff.

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1226977' date='Apr 2 2007, 09:45 AM']Before people rush to endorse the likes of Daniel Ali and Ibn Warraq, these 'former Muslims', let's remember the 'former Catholics' who have posted in this debate forum. I really hope that no one would look to them for an accurate explanation of what Catholicism stands for.[/quote]I understand where you're coming from. But, personally, I think that the experiences of being a former Catholic vs. a former Muslim are quite different. There is no risk for a former Catholic to make up the most far-fetched accusations against the Catholic Faith. In contrast, former Muslims can be subject to death, compliments of their government or some inspired citizen meting out his own justice, just for the act of converting. In short, there are real pressures on former Muslims (or anyone, for that matter), to watch their backs when they criticize Islam.

As far as whether anti-Muslim authors are worth reading, I would say: a resounding "Yes." Read the Muslim apologists [u]and[/u] read the anti-Muslim apologists. If you're lazy (like me), just read some of their many online debates, since each side is more likely to be accountable for their claims, knowing that any false claims would be quickly refuted.

While we Westerners live in a culture of self-criticism to the point of self-hatred, many Muslim countries teach (and will only tolerate) the most sanitized and positive presentation of their history. I would liken this to the Japanese not educating their citizens on Japanese attrocities against the Chinese during World War II. For this reason alone, we need to hear from their detractors.

Muslim apologists are more than happy to paint the West in the most unfavorable terms--and much of their ammunition comes from self-hating Western sources. For example, read [url="http://www.amazon.com/Occidentosis-Plague-Jala-Al-i-Ahmad/dp/0933782136/"]"Occidentosis: A Plague From the West" by Jalal Al-i Ahmad[/url]. Muslim apologists cry "foul play" when Islam is spoken of in such offensive terms (e.g. a disease...or worse, a plague); but, where were they when Ahmad wrote his book back in 1984?

As a side note: there's a publisher called "Brill Publishing" that puts out a whole bunch of interesting books, including translations of some of the earliest dialogues between Christian and Muslim theologians. Unfortunately, they are insanely expensive, costing anywhere from $75-180 per book. Ouch!

[Mateo el Feo]

Budge, thank you for sharing your wisdom on the "Islamics." LOL

[Budge]

who are you the PC language police?

I used Muslim much more.

You probably support all these endless wars for NWO profit.

Edited April 2, 2007 by Budge

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1227132' date='Apr 2 2007, 01:31 PM']who are you the PC language police?[/quote]It's not about PC. It's more about being educated.

[quote name='Budge' post='1227132' date='Apr 2 2007, 01:31 PM']I used Muslim much more.[/quote]Not on this thread.

[quote name='Budge' post='1227132' date='Apr 2 2007, 01:31 PM']You probably support all these endless wars for NWO profit.[/quote]What insight. LOL

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Budge' post='1227069' date='Apr 2 2007, 11:32 AM']Longue Daddy is a typical Republican who has been utterly trained to villify all Islamics while ignoring those who are destroying our country right within its borders.[/quote]

I'm not a Republican.
I don't believe all Muslims are evil terrorists.
I do believe that we have a huge problem right here in the USA.

[quote name='Budge' post='1227069' date='Apr 2 2007, 11:32 AM']I dont see Christians in the West with rare exceptions even attempting to convert the Muslims ...[/quote]


I agree with you on that one. One major major way Islam is spreading so very quickly is through converting many many people. It's a real battle for hearts and minds, and they seeming to be winning that one, eh?

[quote name='Budge' post='1227069' date='Apr 2 2007, 11:32 AM']So why call for DEATH FROM YOUR SIDE Lounge?[/quote]
Did I ever say "kill 'em all" ? lol
Ahh right. I'm the war mongering neo-con.

[Budge]

If you're not a Republican what are you?

Independent?

Libertarian?

{most of those types arent going rah-rah for Bush's exploits in the Mideast}

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote]I'm guessing that you can't quote a single surah from the Quran in the proper context, probably know less about Islam then Muslims know about Roman Catholicism and yet you're judging them?[/quote]
RezaLemmyng, why do I have to know the Koran to recognize Militant Islam as a threat and a menace?

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Budge' post='1227253' date='Apr 2 2007, 02:07 PM']If you're not a Republican what are you?

Independent?

Libertarian?

{most of those types arent going rah-rah for Bush's exploits in the Mideast}[/quote]

A simple Conservative.

I have voted for Republicans and Libertarians primarily
And a few local conservative pro-life Dems

what about you?

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote]Let me get this straight, you have an issue with Muslims because of the few that have persecuted Christians [including Copts, Maronites, etc]but got no problem with Buddists? Buddists were responsible for possibly the greatest revolt against the west, killing everybody that was a Christian in the far-east. The Syriac Orthodox used to have lots of churches in China, had a significant contribution to the Tang Dynasty, then in a massive anti-Christian revolt [because of failed communications with the west], thousands upon thousands [probably millions] of Christians were executed, and you wanna say that you got no problem with Buddists but Muslims are EVIL[/quote]

#1 - RezaLemmyng, for clarification - I said that I have no problem with other faiths such as Buddhism and Confucianism etc because today right now they do not have religious leadership calling for oppression and violence and death. Unlike Islam

#2 - Pretty typical to interpret my criticizing "the religion of peace" to mean that I find all Muslims to be a threat. Obviously all Muslims are not my enemy, all Muslims are not Islamofascists - far from it.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1227288' date='Apr 2 2007, 01:16 PM']#1 - RezaLemmyng, for clarification - I said that I have no problem with other faiths such as Buddhism and Confucianism etc because today right now they do not have religious leadership calling for oppression and violence and death. Unlike Islam

[b]That's not true, you'r quote was:[/b]

I have no real quarrel with Buddhists... Jews... or pretty much any other religion

[b]But as Budge had pointed out, Hindus can be very violent, several years ago a massive amount of Christians were burned to death in India. That isn't violent? Have you ever read about the Tibetan monks that were brutally murdered [which is why the Dali Lama sought amnesty in India] by other Buddists? Not alot of Christians are killed by Buddists in the far east is that there isnt alot of Christians in the far-east so there isn't alot to kill.[/b]

[b]Hindus [as Budge had pointed out] have a very violent history [still going on] against Christians. Several Christians several years ago were burned to death in India, and you don't think that's violent? [/b]

#2 - Pretty typical to interpret my criticizing "the religion of peace" to mean that I find all Muslims to be a threat. Obviously all Muslims are not my enemy, all Muslims are not Islamofascists - far from it.[/quote]

[b]No that's not what you've said, what you've said over and over again is that the only Muslims that aren't a threat are those that don't practice their religion because to practice Islam is to become a threat.[/b]

[quote]RezaLemmyng, why do I have to know the Koran to recognize Militant Islam as a threat and a menace?[/quote]

Let me get this straight, first you say that Islam teaches it's followers to be militants [IE: The Quran], then you claim that you dont have to know the Quran? What if someone said that they didn't need to know the Bible and the history of Roman Catholicism to know that it teaches its followers to be militants and a threat and menace? Alot of Muslims [probably the majority] see Roman Catholicism like that... This statement that you've made is very ignorant but I'm going to ask you, what did you think about His Holiness Pope John Paul II's relationship with the President of Iran [President Khatami]?

Cathoholic Anonymous: Great post, I liked what you wrote.
Budge: I agreed with some, I definately wouldn't agree that Islam is a religion that oppresses women, among other statements but I dont have the time to go through and address everything, and find Quranic verses that prove the point.

Reza

[Lounge Daddy]

yes - I have no real quarrel with Buddhists... Jews... or pretty much any other religion. my position is just that.
These groups, including Hindus, are not flying airplanes into buildings.
These groups do not have leaders urging followers into joining a global campaign against the "un-converted world.".

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1227448' date='Apr 2 2007, 04:56 AM']Let me get this straight, you have an issue with Muslims because of the few that have persecuted Christians [including Copts, Maronites, etc] but got no problem with Buddists?[/quote]

Because of more than a [i]FEW[/i] militant Muslims, Reza.
And not because of some Muslim vs Christian issue, Reza.

[quote name='RezaLemmyng' post='1227448' date='Apr 2 2007, 05:59 PM']Let me get this straight, first you say that Islam teaches it's followers to be militants [IE: The Quran], then you claim that you dont have to know the Quran? What if someone said that they didn't need to know the Bible and the history of Roman Catholicism to know that it teaches its followers to be militants and a threat and menace? Alot of Muslims [probably the majority] see Roman Catholicism like that...[/quote]

I completely disagree with the lukewarm approach and moral relativism.
And let me help you to "get this straight"

#1 - Muslim leaders teach followers to be militants. These leaders claim to be using the Koran.

#2 - You ask "What if someone said that they didn't need to know the Bible and the history of Roman Catholicism to know that it teaches its followers to be militants and a threat and menace" ???

If Catholic leaders were actively preaching violence all across the globe, then we would have a problem.
If Catholic Bishops were calling for genocide, then we would have a problem.
If lay Catholics were murdering non-Catholics and blowing themselves up in market squares, then we would have a problem.
If a predominantly Catholic nation, with some religious-based legal system were promising to wipe Israel off the map, then we would have a problem.

But that's not the case, is it Reza?


If the above scenario reflected the real situation today, I as a Catholic would NOT:
- tell critics that there was no threat
- accuse critics oft being anti-Catholic
- and I would not respond to critics by simply telling them to read the Bible and the Catechism.

As it happens, the situation today involves Muslims in these scenarios rather than Catholics.
And, no I do not need to read the Koran to see a problem and a threat in the world by militant Islam.

Edited April 3, 2007 by Lounge Daddy

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1228079' date='Apr 2 2007, 11:16 PM']yes - I have no real quarrel with Buddhists... Jews... or pretty much any other religion. my position is just that.

[b]That's a very uneducated position, considering Buddists have killed more Christians then Muslims EVER HAVE.[/b]

These groups, including Hindus, are not flying airplanes into buildings.

[b]No, rather then killing 2000 with planes, they murdered much much more. [/b]

These groups do not have leaders urging followers into joining a global campaign against the "un-converted world.".

[b]...so you can speak Arabic and Farsi? I wasn't aware of that, should I start using Arabic and Farsi on this board instead? If you don't know Arabic and Farsi, have never read the Quran, then I don't think it's safe to take your assumptions as fact. What you should know is that Hamas protected the churches in Palestine [including Roman Catholic] from burning, after Fatah and the Isrealis attempted to burn them and confinscate the land.[/b]

Because of more than a [i]FEW[/i] militant Muslims, Reza.

[b]Tell me how you know?[/b]

And not because of some Muslim vs Christian issue, Reza.

[b]Sure it is because a great amount of Muslims have helped Christians, like Hamas did.[/b]

I completely disagree with the lukewarm approach and moral relativism.

[b]That's obvious that you do, you disagree with alot of things but on what basis, I'm not sure.[/b]

And let me help you to "get this straight"

[b]K, help me get this straight[/b]

#1 - Muslim leaders teach followers to be militants. These leaders claim to be using the Koran.

[b]Since you havn't read the Quran, I wouldn't expect you to know. You must watch alot of Fox News, because I wouldnt be so quick to lump these "Muslim leaders" together. King Abdullah II is a Muslim leader, and I'd like you to quote a phrase from him that was "teaching Muslims to be militants". I'd also like to know the names, locations of these majority "Muslim leaders", because I could give you thousands, upon thousands of Muslim leaders that say the opposite. I could also give you the names/locations of alot of militant Christian groups too, that are far worse of a threat.[/b]

#2 - You ask "What if someone said that they didn't need to know the Bible and the history of Roman Catholicism to know that it teaches its followers to be militants and a threat and menace" ???

[b]That's right, it was in reference to your over exaggeration.[/b]

If Catholic leaders were actively preaching violence all across the globe, then we would have a problem.

[b]There have been, go back and history and seek for yourself. There have been a grip of Roman Catholic leaders that have done so, not just in ancient times either but that doesn't reflect the church as a whole, if you ask me.[/b]

If Catholic Bishops were calling for genocide, then we would have a problem.

[b]In the situation of the Crusades, Catholic Bishops did do that with the Copts. Don't forget that it was a massive slaughter of Copts in Egypt at the hands of Romans but I don't believe that it reflects Roman Catholicism as a whole, though at that time it wasn't a pretty piece of history for some Roman Bishops. What we're finding in the Islamic world isn't that though, it's a select few preaching a message that isn't universally accepted.[/b]

If lay Catholics were murdering non-Catholics and blowing themselves up in market squares, then we would have a problem.

[b]What about the situation in Venezuela where Roman Catholics dragged out the other christians and murdered them in the streets? Seriously, you need to check your statements more clearly before posting such loosely based comments.[/b]

If a predominantly Catholic nation, with some religious-based legal system were promising to wipe Israel off the map, then we would have a problem.

[b]Germany, after Hitler's rise to power, was declared a Roman Catholic Nation, yet it contributed the most massive annihilation of Jews that this world has ever seen but I'm guessing that you're referencing the situation in Palestine, and the President of Iran's comments. It's important to point out, that the President of Iran didn't say that every Jew should be annihilated, but that the secular state of Isreal should be dismantled. His comments were not directed at Jews but a secular government that oppresses Palestinians [including Palestinian Christians]. He isn't alone with this either, the President of Iran meets with "Jews against Zionism" frequently to discuss this matter, and they are with him, as the Talmud says that Jews taking back the Land of Cannon is only going to cause loses on both sides, and reap death and destruction.[/b]

But that's not the case, is it Reza?
If the above scenario reflected the real situation today, I as a Catholic would NOT:
- tell critics that there was no threat
- accuse critics oft being anti-Catholic
- and I would not respond to critics by simply telling them to read the Bible and the Catechism.

[b]With every amount of respect for you as a human being, but that's exactly what you've done but as I'd mentioned, the Bible and the history of the church is what reflects the heart of Christianity, not a select few that don't properly represent the church, and those bishops that were wrong with their teachings back in history. Does the fact that germany was a Catholic Nation during WWII, reflect the Roman Church as a whole? No it doesn't... does His Holiness Pope John Paul II's relationship with President Khatami reflect his integrity? Is His Holiness a friend to terrorists [as you're saying about Iran]? No, His Holiness Pope John Paul II, had a much better understand then you, and is the example that we should follow. His Holiness, knew the religion of Islam, knew the mindset of President Khatami, before judging him, and never was so uninformed, uneducated and so ignorant to make such a broad and general stereotype about an entire demographic.[/b]

As it happens, the situation today involves Muslims in these scenarios rather than Catholics.
And, no I do not need to read the Koran to see a problem and a threat in the world by militant Islam.

Surely you do, because you've made claims against the religion based upon false truths. Jesus Christ says to live in Spirt and in [color="#FF0000"]TRUTH![/color] Truth isn't claiming false evidence about a particular religion but taking a stand against that which isn't true.

[b]I'm curious as to why you havn't responded to my comments about His Holiness Pope John Paul II being great friends with President Khatami of Iran? It's a bit too much for you to handle, I understand.[/b][/quote]