Cloistered Nuns: Locked Behind The Grate

[Gene Church]

[quote name='Budge' post='1226185' date='Apr 1 2007, 05:13 PM']In this harsh world that is descending into evil, young people are looking for answers and while they are well-intentioned and honestly seeking after God, they can fall into false religions. I would think the convent would be an attractive alternative to a girl brought up in secular culture, who has NOT been given any Biblical foundation. Why wouldnt it be? Instant community, answers, an automatic purpose for life--all of these things are very attractice and inviting, only problem is, it is based on false religious precepts. It is different from the regular world, that they have enough consicence to realize is going down the chute fast.[/quote]

Budge, by this logic, why should we not assume that you are "well-intentioned and honestly seeking after God," resulting in your "fall into false religions." Based upon your frequent moves, including your move from the true Church, I must assume that you have not be properly catechized. For that reason, I feel sorry for you.

You seem saddened to see those happy with their lives. Is it because you are not happy with yours?

[Budge]

Just because someone is brought up in a fundamentalist church does not mean they become born again.

There are fundamentalist churches that are legalistic or teach Lordship salvation--[kind of a a derivative of Rome--think Free Will baptists] but even then if a child is brought up in a fundamentalist church and given Biblical training at home, this doesnt mean they will become born again or will come to trust in Jesus Christ as their Savior invididually.

So if they are not born again, and do not have discernment, yes of course they can be diverted into a false church system. Some can be in rebellion against God too if they had been saved and be in a very backslidden state. I had a Catholic friend who was I believe born again, but would not leave because of her husbands reaction, she actually tried to but was led back in.

Considering the messages of the world, it is very easy for a Christian child to be led away from the Bible teachings of their parents. They will be told their parents were not intelligent, did not understand the world, were keeping them "repressed", they will hear the same anti-Christian messages of the world, where tolerance and interfaithism are the highest values rather then standing up for Jesus Christ as the way to salvation. All it takes now, is the supposed FUN of the world leading a kid away...Listen to this rock music,", stop being a nerd and a goodie two shoes....the siren call of the world is immense. Even as an adult a Christian can literally be surrounded nonetheless of some inexperienced child.

One thing you wont find from me is excuses for everyone that calls themselves Christians or fundamentalists or inpt Bpatists or whatnot. There are those who are all those things in name only. There are Charlatans everywhere. One thing that bothers me about catholicism is how their clergy class is elevated. . If a Baptist preacher goes bad, Ill come and say it. I refuse to go to this one indpt Baptist church in my new town right now because the minister there preaches DIRECTLy against Gods Word.

My last priest constnatly spoke of his abusive fundamentalist Baptist uncle or father? I cant remember which but he mentioned this guy enough in homilies that I knew it had a very bad effect on him,, he was a convert to Catholicism, actually there was no mystery there to me WHY. This doesnt mean everyone is abused who leaves a religion, but it is one of those situations, where one is only given a facade of the gospel, i doubt this preacher was sticking to Gods Word if he couldnt even treat his own children with dignity and respect. In fact according to 1 Timothy he should have been removed from the ministry.

So some converts from Bibles churches to Rome Im not surprised. One thing Ive noticed with those stories even from Catholicisms top ex-PRot apologists is usually they were caught up in churches that taught false things, like Mark Shea's Evangelical group he admitted taught the Second Coming was allegorical which is certainly NOT a NORM for evangelicalism.

[Budge]

[quote]
Budge, by this logic, why should we not assume that you are "well-intentioned and honestly seeking after God," resulting in your "fall into false religions." Based upon your frequent moves, including your move from the true Church, I must assume that you have not be properly catechized. For that reason, I feel sorry for you[/quote].

There is nothing wrong with me sharing my past experiences.

In fact, I think you should be glad I admit my past errors.

My moves are not "Frequent", I was a Cradle Catholic, then UU for over 13 years-over half my young adult life then back in a Catholic Church for a very short time before I was saved.
[quote]
You seem saddened to see those happy with their lives. Is it because you are not happy with yours?[/quote]

Why would I be sad over them being happy? Actually what I care about is they are saved or not. I worry about what happens to them later in that religous system. I have met very unhappy nuns who suffered abuse and hurt, including one who came to the UU church.

The convent wouldnt have been for me, one of my greatest joys in life has been marriage.

[Gene Church]

[quote name='Budge' post='1226278' date='Apr 1 2007, 05:41 PM'].

My moves are not "Frequent", I was a Cradle Catholic, then UU for over 13 years-over half my young adult life then back in a Catholic Church for a very short time before I was saved.[/quote]

UU: Isn't that the denomination that the Klansman burns a question mark in your yard? At the Pearly Gates, don't they have a fork in the road where you have the choice of "heaven" or "discussion group about what is heaven", and the UUs go to the latter?

[quote name='Budge' post='1226278' date='Apr 1 2007, 05:41 PM']Why would I be sad over them being happy? Actually what I care about is they are saved or not. I worry about what happens to them later in that religous system. I have met very unhappy nuns who suffered abuse and hurt, including one who came to the UU church.[/quote]

They were saved when they were baptised. I am pleased with your concern, but not your conclusions. As to "very unhappy nuns who suffered abuse and hurt, including one who came to the UU church", they deserve our prayers. Because they were unhappy, abused, or hurt, does not effect the Truth of the Faith. It saddens me, but it doesn't change that the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ.



[quote name='Budge' post='1226278' date='Apr 1 2007, 05:41 PM']The convent wouldnt have been for me, one of my greatest joys in life has been marriage.[/quote]

The convent would not have been for you, because you were not called to be a nun. It is a vocation, not an occupation. Those who see it as an occupation, that they alone can decide to enter, will be deluded, and unhappy.

As to your marriage being one of your greatest joys in life, I am pleased to hear that. Marriage is a sacrament, and a vocation.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]What are your thoughts about non-denominational girls who convert to Catholicism and then join the religious life? ie, not brought up in a worldly, secular culture but in a very religious, fundamentalist one?[/quote]

I have a friend who answers to that description. She became a Christian at the age of fifteen and started to attend a non-denominational church. I met her four years later. Even though her theology was totally at odds with mine, I was moved by her love for Jesus and realised that I had a lot to learn from her. When she suggested that we study the Bible together, I agreed.

She is now in the process of becoming Catholic. I would like to add that I never once challenged her on any point of Evangelical theology, for fear of turning our very enriching Bible studies and prayer-times into debates. Her decision to convert was her own, and it wasn't taken lightly - her sister and her sister's fiance, whom she lives with, are very anti-Catholic. But she perservered. Not only are we 'Bible buddies', we're also discerning religious life together. It's exciting. Thanks be to God.

Edited April 2, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Gene Church' post='1226315' date='Apr 1 2007, 07:56 PM']UU: Isn't that the denomination that the Klansman burns a question mark in your yard? At the Pearly Gates, don't they have a fork in the road where you have the choice of "heaven" or "discussion group about what is heaven", and the UUs go to the latter?
They were saved when they were baptised. I am pleased with your concern, but not your conclusions. As to "very unhappy nuns who suffered abuse and hurt, including one who came to the UU church", they deserve our prayers. Because they were unhappy, abused, or hurt, does not effect the Truth of the Faith. It saddens me, but it doesn't change that the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ.
The convent would not have been for you, because you were not called to be a nun. It is a vocation, not an occupation. Those who see it as an occupation, that they alone can decide to enter, will be deluded, and unhappy.

As to your marriage being one of your greatest joys in life, I am pleased to hear that. Marriage is a sacrament, and a vocation.[/quote]

Ahh it is wonderful to have a fresh new voice that has not been coarsely affected by Budge's 'chasing the Catholics in circles' way of thinking. Welcome to Phatmass.

[jeffpugh]

As well, Budge, I gotta say after reading the stuff on this page, I have to say you're doing nothing but building up my faith. Why? Because of the absurdity that the Bible stands alone above all and that your brand of Christianity is right because you say so. It collapses in upon itself because you treat the bible as if YOU wrote it. We all know you did not but its comin' across like that.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[center]J.M.J.[/center]

[quote name='Budge' post='1226185' date='Apr 1 2007, 06:13 PM']In this harsh world that is descending into evil, young people are looking for answers and while they are well-intentioned and honestly seeking after God, they can fall into false religions. I would think the convent would be an attractive alternative to a girl brought up in secular culture, who has NOT been given any Biblical foundation. Why wouldnt it be? Instant community, answers, an automatic purpose for life--all of these things are very attractice and inviting, only problem is, it is based on false religious precepts. It is different from the regular world, that they have enough consicence to realize is going down the chute fast.[/quote]

I could not help but laugh when you posted "I would think the convent would be an attractive alternative to a girl brought up in secular culture, who was not given any Biblical foundation" L.O.L.

1.) What young girl brought up in secular culture wants to go run off and join a convent? HAHA Good one. Common, let's be serious. Your like thirty something right? Well I'm sixteen and I've lived in todays "secular culture" and believe me skipping off to the convent is not the average young girl's dream. Most young girls who are called to the religious life do not nor have they ever had the intention of growing up and being "Sr. Mary Joseph". We dream of our handsome husbands and our great house and the ten french maids we are going to have and the two perfect little children. That is the average secular girl's dream... not escaping partying and wordly success so to go pray to God. Common Budge... Being a nun is not something your every day five year old much less your every day young 18 year old wants to skip off and become. Being 16 and feeling strongly called to the cloister is not something I had planned, believe me. It is God who draws you there. He wins you over. You... just fall in love with Him. It is not something you want at first or even after you have become deeply involved in a relationship with God. It is not something that naturally actracts anyone.

2.) Biblical foundation? Budge, please start a thread on where the Bible came from. Yes, God, but common Budge we all know (or at least I hope we do) that the Bible did not just fall out of the sky all put together in a nifty little book form with a cover that read BIBLE on it. Even Luther had to admit if it had not been for the Catholics (he used "papists" though) he and any other protestant (including yourself) would not have a Bible to even try to preach false news out of.

3.) This isn't about "winning or losing". It is about seeking truth Budge.

May God love you and bless you abundantly!

In Jesus and Mary,
Marie

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1224703' date='Mar 31 2007, 08:51 PM']you post falsehoods all the time, and never admit to the truth, you "duck and run"[/quote]

And you dont?

[quote]I have a friend who answers to that description. She became a Christian at the age of fifteen and started to attend a non-denominational church. I met her four years later. Even though her theology was totally at odds with mine, I was moved by her love for Jesus and realised that I had a lot to learn from her. When she suggested that we study the Bible together, I agreed.

She is now in the process of becoming Catholic. I would like to add that I never once challenged her on any point of Evangelical theology, for fear of turning our very enriching Bible studies and prayer-times into debates. Her decision to convert was her own, and it wasn't taken lightly - her sister and her sister's fiance, whom she lives with, are very anti-Catholic. But she perservered. Not only are we 'Bible buddies', we're also discerning religious life together. It's exciting. Thanks be to God.[/quote] I like this post, this is my testimony [in regards to becomming Coptic Orthodox and bringing others to the traditional faith].

Reza

[Budge]

Hey Totus, listen to an old lady!

I wasnt talking about NORMAL young girls, but there is that rare young girl who has idealism and a desire to seek after God who very easily could be diverted into the convent, with no Biblical training it is easy for many well intentioned young people to end up in false religions. Theres a reason cults grew in the 60s like Hare Krishna.

[quote]
We dream of our handsome husbands and our great house and the ten french maids we are going to have and the two perfect little children. That is the average secular girl's dream... not escaping partying and wordly success so to go pray to God. [/quote]Yeah and thats a problem, they lie to young people about what life really will be or how hard it is to make a living. They lied to me so Im not surprised, youve been fed the same line. Actually I think this stuff has gotten worse through the generations.

[quote]
Common Budge... Being a nun is not something your every day five year old much less your every day young 18 year old wants to skip off and become. Being 16 and feeling strongly called to the cloister is not something I had planned, believe me. It is God who draws you there. He wins you over. You... just fall in love with Him. It is not something you want at first or even after you have become deeply involved in a relationship with God. It is not something that naturally actracts anyone.[/quote]

You are young and idealistic, and very well probably have a heart for God and living for HIm, rare in todays society, but sadly you are being deluded by a false religion. Catholicism is based on sacraments and suffering for your own salvation when Jesus Christ offers the gift of salvation via eternal GRACE, it is FREE FOR YOUR TAKING via FAITH IN HIM.

A relationship with God is not to be done via clergy, sacraments, wafers, false prayers but a living relationship where you grow in God and have a true relationship with Him. If you want to be saved in Jesus Christ, you do not need to spend years and years doing drudge work in a convent, praying repetitive prayers, denying yourself the love of a husband, contact with your family or even having children.

Have you been born again?

[url="http://www.gospeltracts.com/GospelTractsView/GospelTracts/GospelTract320.htm"]http://www.gospeltracts.com/GospelTractsVi...pelTract320.htm[/url]

[quote]2.) Biblical foundation? Budge, please start a thread on where the Bible came from. Yes, God, but common Budge we all know (or at least I hope we do) that the Bible did not just fall out of the sky all put together in a nifty little book form with a cover that read BIBLE on it. Even Luther had to admit if it had not been for the Catholics (he used "papists" though) he and any other protestant (including yourself) would not have a Bible to even try to preach false news out of.[/quote]

The scripture writings were agreed upon by Christians WAY before the Catholic Church even exsisted. The Bereans who the apostles called Noble EXAMINED the teachings of the apostles VIA SCRIPTURE {at that time the OT}

God has promised in the Bible his PURE WORD to be preserved, no matter the means He used to keep it perserved.

God Bless you Marie, I hope you hear me out in the above.

Read that tract please.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote]If you want to be saved in Jesus Christ, you do not need to spend years and years doing drudge work in a convent, praying repetitive prayers, denying yourself the love of a husband, contact with your family or even having children.[/quote]

That is not what she will be doing in the monastery. She isn't trying to 'earn' a free pass to Heaven that way, which is what you seem to be implying. Instead, she will find the closest thing to Heaven that you can get on this earth - the kind of closeness that comes when you're ready to shatter that jar of pure nard and pour out your one precious life for the sake of loving God with all your heart, and all your soul, and all your mind. Often this does happen through marriage - that is a very holy vocation as well. But as we've already explained to you, Budge, not everyone is called to marry. Some Christians will find their peace in the convent or the monastery, and their lives are just as joyful and fulfilled as those of wives and mothers. You're clearly unsettled by the monastic life, which is why you have tried to redefine it in a way that makes sense to you. Your idea of love is restricted to the kind of love that you are familiar with, so the idea that there could be love, [i]real[/i] love, in such an unexpected place as a convent seems abhorrent.

In the same way, a lot of people refuse to consider that Jesus Christ might be God Incarnate - because they can't bring themselves to believe that real love can be found in the most unexpected place of them all: the cross. Never dismiss the unexpected. You don't know what's there.

Edited April 2, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Budge]

[quote]
That is not what she will be doing in the monastery. She isn't trying to 'earn' a free pass to Heaven that way, which is what you seem to be implying. Instead, she will find the closest thing to Heaven that you can get on this earth - the kind of closeness that comes when you're ready to shatter that jar of pure nard and pour out your one precious life for the sake of loving God with all your heart, and all your soul, and all your mind.[/quote]"Heaven" cannot be replicated on this earth. IN fact I believe those who try [outside of living in Gods commandments and in the Body of Christ] end up being in some sort of delusion, Dominionism etc. The Bible even says, on my board today, someone posted the verse, that there are things in heaven, humans couldnt even imagine.
[quote]


Often this does happen through marriage - that is a very holy vocation as well. But as we've already explained to you, Budge, not everyone is called to marry. Some Christians will find their peace in the convent or the monastery, and their lives are just as joyful and fulfilled as those of wives and mothers. You're clearly unsettled by the monastic life, which is why you have tried to redefine it in a way that makes sense to you. Your idea of love is restricted to the kind of love that you are familiar with, so the idea that there could be love, real love, in such an unexpected place as a convent seems abhorrent.[/quote]

If I believed that the monastic life was outlined in the Bible, instead of being tied to the traditions of other religions and Roman vestal virgins, and that the nuns were learning TRUTH, intead of a false religion, I would say go for it!. As Ive said they certainly have the positives of community going for them in a world that is lacking in it and the charity works are commendable.
[quote]In the same way, a lot of people refuse to consider that Jesus Christ might be God Incarnate - because they can't bring themselves to believe that real love can be found in the most unexpected place of them all: the cross. Never dismiss the unexpected. You don't know what's there.[/quote]

Sure there is always LOVE when one has a relationship with Jesus Christ, married or unmarried.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Budge, no one ever said that religious life replicated heaven. Stop misrepresenting our beliefs. You're only deceiving yourself.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[center]J.M.J.[/center]
[quote name='Budge' post='1227030' date='Apr 2 2007, 11:01 AM']Hey Totus, listen to an old lady!

I wasnt talking about NORMAL young girls, but there is that rare young girl who has idealism and a desire to seek after God who very easily could be diverted into the convent, with no Biblical training it is easy for many well intentioned young people to end up in false religions. Theres a reason cults grew in the 60s like Hare Krishna.[/quote]

Well the convents today there are not many young girls who are not normal. Most grew up with secular desires. Most never planned to be a nun. There are very few who have the privildge and gift from God to grow up in a home that shelters them from the traps of the secular world. I know quite a few who are converts from various Protestant denominations (including myself) who grew up with a Protestant's prespective of the Bible and how to read it. I suppose, in your eyes, we have abanonded the Bible and rebelled against our parents are God? We, because we are so young and have no mind or reason of our own or atleast do not know how to think or reason by ourselves, have been swept into these "new" false cultish beliefs of Catholicism? (Which I am very curious as to when, according to your knowledge of history, Catholics popped up on the scene?)

So basically I have an idealism and a desire to seek after God and I am being diverted into a convent because of my lack of knowing the Bible. Hmmm... that's interesting.

[quote] Yeah and thats a problem, they lie to young people about what life really will be or how hard it is to make a living. They lied to me so Im not surprised, youve been fed the same line. Actually I think this stuff has gotten worse through the generations. You are young and idealistic, and very well probably have a heart for God and living for HIm, rare in todays society, but sadly you are being deluded by a false religion. Catholicism is based on sacraments and suffering for your own salvation when Jesus Christ offers the gift of salvation via eternal GRACE, it is FREE FOR YOUR TAKING via FAITH IN HIM.[/quote]I did not grow up Catholic. So, whoever your saying lied to me... sorry to tell you they didn't. I grew up Protestant, so figure that out. I do not resent my Protestant background though. It prepared me to receive the entire truth of the Church, and to better understand just where my Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ were coming from as a Catholic.

Your right though. We are living in a culture of death and the secular world tries to push Christ out of everything. But I am confused as to wether you were lied to by the culture or you think you were by the Church. Sounds to me like if I was told that Catholics believed what you think they believe then I wouldn't want to be Catholic either.

Also the Church is based upon Christ. He institued the Church. He said, "On this rock [b]I[/b] build my Church." He did not say, "On this rock Luther builds my Church" or, "On this rock Budge builds my Church." He said on this rock [b]I[/b] build my Church. After he said that he said, "And the gates of Hell will not prevail against it." According to your history the Church disappeared after the Apostles died until 1500 when Luther and Calvin decided to resurrect it and build it up again. What happen between those 1450-1500 years? Did the gates of Hell prevail against His Church? And Christ did not say there would be 300,000 different Churches that He would build. He said there would be one flock, one Church.

Although the Sacraments were instituted by Christ and it is through them that Christ bestows sanctifying grace upon us the whole Church is not based on sacraments. Without Christ there would be no Sacraments. Budge, do you even know what makes a sacrament? Every sacrament is biblical. Since the earliest times Christians have always held a belief in the Sacaments. No one had ever denied the Sacraments until 1500 years after Christ's death and resurrection Budge. From the year after Christ's resurrection until the year 1500 A.D. the seven sacraments were held as the means Christ institued so as to bestow grace upon us. This can be proven because in the Greek Church, having separated from the Catholic Church in the ninth century, still believed in the seven sacraments. The Coptic, Armenian, and Syrian Monophysites, who separated in the fifth cenutry, have seven and only seven sacraments. This is a proof that the doctrine of the seven sacraments was universally recognized in the Christian Church founded by Christ in Matthew 16,18 at the time of their separation. And the Eucharist was not even denied by Luther! So, it was far over 1500 years after the death of Christ that Christians ever thought that the Last Supper meant anything other then it being the true Body and Blood of Christ! This can be proven also by the Early Church Fathers. From the earliest of their writings they talk of the Eucharist. The [i]Didache[/i] dating around the 1st century has two sections that deal with the Eucharist! St. Clement of Rome in the 4th century wrote of the Eucharist! And (my favorite) St. Ignastius of Antioch in 110 A.D. even wrote of the Eucharist being the true body and blood of Christ.

I am only spending this much time speaking to you on the sacraments because you brought them up as something foriegn and pagan that the early Christians did not believe when in fact that is false and wrong. They did believe in the Eucharist and the sacraments and there is proof of that.

Nowhere does it say you receive grace by faith alone, not even in the Bible. Please tell me where your getting this from.

[quote]A relationship with God is not to be done via clergy, sacraments, wafers, false prayers but a living relationship where you grow in God and have a true relationship with Him. If you want to be saved in Jesus Christ, you do not need to spend years and years doing drudge work in a convent, praying repetitive prayers, denying yourself the love of a husband, contact with your family or even having children.[/quote]

The Chosen People of the Old Testament were a royal priesthood, but they also had a special priesthood with in themselves, the house of Aaron and the rest of the tribe of Levi being the assistants of the priests. When Core (Please Read Numbers 16) said to Moses and Aaron, "Enough from you! The whole community, all of them, are holy; the Lord is in their midst. Why then should you set yourselves over the Lord's congregation?" the Lord struck him, "and he went down to the nether world and the earth closed over him."

Christ made us all a chosen people and a royal race. The Church Father's even taught that we are a universal priesthood and a holy people. This is the very teaching from Scripture (1 Pet. 2:8) that Luther used to try to justify his walk away from Papal Authority, but it was erred because he failed to see that he was doing just as Core did. As a universal priesthood [i]all[/i] are obliged, as St. Peter says, "to offer [i] spiritual sacrifices[/i] well pleasing to God through Jesus Christ." Besides these spiritual sacrifices, or sacrifices in the wider sense, there is in the New Law a special sacrifice, the sacrifice of the Mass, and therefore also a special priesthood. In virtue of the universal priesthood the faithful join with Christ and with the priest at the altar in the offering of the Holy Sacrifice. All the faithful are indeed "an elect race, a royal priesthood," but they are not the representatives of Christ at the altar, they do not, in the Mass, change the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ, they are not the "dispensers of the mysteries of God," not to them did Christ say: "Do this in remebrance of Me." [b]The same titles which St. Peter applies to the Christians God Himself in the Old Law applied to the Israelites, and still He instituted amongst them a separate priesthood, and pubnished with death COre and his followers for arrogating to themselves the powers of the priesthood. The early Church Fathers always recognized this special priesthood.[/b]

The Eucharist may look like a wafer, but you are seeing the Eucharist not with the eyes of the Magi who had to look upon a simple baby and realize that He was infact God himself. Why would God not come down in the form of bread and wine although he specifically said in John that He would. Some of His disciples even walked away when He said this thinking the idea of them having to eat his actual flesh ridiculous and horrible, but He did not stop them as he had in the past when they misunderstood them. He let them keep walking away and then turned asked the Apostles if they would walk away too as this teaching.

False prayers? Can you truly judge the prayers of another? Can you how sincere they are? Can you say how devoted they are? Can you truly say what their prayers mean to God?

[quote]Have you been born again?[/quote]If you are asking if I have been baptised. I have.
If your asking if I have accepted God as the Messiah, my savior, and my true God. I have.

[quote]The scripture writings were agreed upon by Christians WAY before the Catholic Church even exsisted.[/quote]

When, according to you, did the Catholic Church start to exist?

[quote]The Bereans who the apostles called Noble EXAMINED the teachings of the apostles VIA SCRIPTURE {at that time the OT}[/quote]Well I'd like to see your proof. I've never heard this one before.

According to the rest of the World and all men and women before the time of Luther, and even Luther himself all agree that it was in 382 at the Synod of Rome, under Pope Damasus, that the Church listed which books belong to the Bible. It was later confirmed in the Church at 393 A.D. in Hippo, 397 A.D. in Carthage, 405 A.D. by Pope St. Innocent I when he wrote a letter to Bishop Exsuperius of Toulouse, 419 A.D. at the Sacred Council of Carthage, 1441 at the ecumenical Council of Florence, 1546 at the ecumenical Council of Trent, and at the First Vatican Council in 1869. The same 73 books were first, under the Divine Authority given by Christ to his Church, decided upon in 393 A.D. by Catholics. Luther even admitted that if it had not been for the "papists" the Bible would not have been compiled and Christians would not know what books were divenly inspired and which ones were not.

G.K. Chesterton observed that it is totally inconsistent to accept the Bible but reject the Church that offers it. He said that Proponents of sola scriptura are merely using "one piece of Catholic furniture to break up all the other Catholic furniture" He describes them as men who: "rushing in to wreck a temple, overturning the altar and driving out the priest, found there certain sacred volumes inscribed 'Psalms' or 'Gospels'; and (instead of throwing them on the fire with the rest) began to use them as infallible oracles rebuking all the other arrangements. If the sacred high altar was all wrong, why were the secondary sacred documents necessarily all right? If the priest had faked his Sacraments, why could he have not faked his Scriptures?"

It is not till recent times that even Protestants began to reject the facts of history just so to not have to admit that they would be, in truth, inconsistent if they were to accept Scripture but not the Church that, under the divine authority given the Church by Christ, compiled the list of divinly inspired books.

[quote]God has promised in the Bible his PURE WORD to be preserved, no matter the means He used to keep it perserved.[/quote]

If you do not believe the Bible to have been compiled together by Catholics then why are you even telling me this? It seems to me like your trying to justify the fact that you know it was compiled by Catholics, but yet you look upon the Catholicism as being a false religion. Did you know in many local early Churches Hebrews, Jude, Revelation, and 2 Peter were looked upon as not inspired? While others held that later books judged non-canonical such as Shepherd of Hermas, the Gospels of Peter and Thomas, and the letters of Barnabus and Clement [i]were[/i] inspired? Who then, has the authority to determine what books were inspired and which ones weren't, especially considering the great disagreement in the early local Churches about which ones were and which ones were not? So, your saying that God used the "pagan Catholics who did not exist until [i]way[/i] later to have the authority to compile the canon, but truly they were a pagan people and he just used them to get his word to the Church who was not suppose to be prevailed by Hell, but that was, and that was rediscovered by Luther and Calvin 1300 years later after the "pagan Catholics" compiled the Sacred Scriptures?

How can "pure word" be compiled by men who did not even have the right view on Christ according to you? If they do not even know Christ or his truth then how can they have authority to say what truths are truly Christ's and what Scriptures should go in the canon?

[quote]God Bless you Marie, I hope you hear me out in the above.[/quote]Thank you for your words of kindness. May God bless you and love you always! I will hear you out. I have heard what you had to say as of now and I do not agree. But if you can convince me I will convert, but you have failed to convince me so far. I'm sure everyone here, if you could truly convine us, would convert as well. We are not called to accept what we want to accept, but Christ's truth. We are called the seek truth. And until you can show me "truth" that is actual truth I cannot hear you out because there is so many contradictions in your truth. I will listen to you though, and discern and see, but as of now, as you can see, the truth your speaking is pretty inconsistent.

[quote]Read that tract please.[/quote]

I will.

In Jesus and Mary,
Marie

[jeffpugh]

That was wonderfully thorough! Just an iota, Luther wanted to throw out the letter of James! I think it said things he didn't want to hear (just like the deutero-canonical books, which where indeed used by the Apostles and Church Fathers)!

Also Budge, I want to say that I'm ditto with TTM on her last bit about converting. Show me that you have the truth and I will change. By the way you're in competition with another other protestant friend... or do more than one of them have the same agenda? hmm (no this is not sarcasm).