Cloistered Nuns: Locked Behind The Grate

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Yeah, like Socrates said, nuns can always leave the convent if they and the superiors decide it is the best choice. Just look at Mrs. Von Trapp.

[Starets]

Budge Budge Budge

There are ample opportunities during the postulance and noviciate and even the juniorate to leave on your own free will. there are ample opportunities to be kicked out. they choose willingly to serve under these strictures.

I have been to Christ in the Desert, the monastery featered in The Monastery TV show a few months ago. I was in the Chapter Room when the production company made its pitch to the community.

And yes it is a community. It is just as much a community as a small town a church is a community. Perhapse even more so, as you are living with the same people you work with.

sure 4AM is awful early. Sure there are explicit rules that you don't have to deal with as a single or married person in "the world". Sure sometimes you get abbots/abbesses who are jerks/beeshes. But that isn't the hardest thing about monastic life. Its the fact that you live with the same people 24x7.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[center]J.M.J.[/center]

[quote name='Budge' post='1219992' date='Mar 26 2007, 05:53 PM']I feel sorry for them because..

They are trapped in the false teachings of Catholicism and they are taken even deeper into these falsehoods, told they must forsake these things to become "holy" and live for God when that is not true.[/quote]

The "false" teachings of Catholicism have not commanded us to forsake all things to become holy and live for God. It is Christ who first told us to forsake all things to become holy and live for God. One cannot justify saying that Our Lord has not called us to be poor and renounce ourselves and all we have for love of Him. He died for us, we in turn are called to die to Him in the sense that everything we possess whether it be objects, our wills that go against His, and even the good things that He has given us, if he calls us too, we should renounce them in a heart beat. There are some souls He does call. And in general He calls us all to be poor in spiritual and material wealth, "for the least of you shall be the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven".

"Everyone who has left houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children or lands for the sake of my name will be repaid a hundred times over and also inherit eternal life." (Matt. 19:29)

"[b] If thou wilt to be perfect[/b], go sell what thou hast, and give it to the poor." (Matt. 19:21)

"None of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions" (Luke 14:33)

"You shall love with your [b]whole[/b] heart, with your [b]whole[/b] soul, with your [b]whole[/b] mind, and with [b]all[/b] your strength." (Mark 12:30)

"It is easier for a camel to pass though the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 19:24)

[quote]Yes I do feel sorry for them they do not have the opportunity to get married or have children, of course in the secular world this will not happen for all, but they are blocked from it for good. I dont know about convents but I believe this imposed celibacy has certain been a disaster for the male side of the aisle.[/quote]

Christ was celibate. It it were such a great evil to remain pure and chaste would Jesus, who is perfect, have been celibate? But yet, he was. That says something. Being celibate and totally chaste and pure is a beautiful thing, for Jesus was totally and chaste and pure and lived a celibate life. Can following the example of Christ be a wrong thing?

And Christ says, "He answered, 'Not all can accept [this] word, but only those to whom that is granted. Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.'" (Matt. 19-12)

It also says in Matthew 22:30, "Jesus said to them in reply, 'You are misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven.'"

St. Paul writes, "An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction." He even goes on to encourage those who are virgins to remain so, for the Lord's day is upon us.

It does not seem to me like Christ ever taught nor any of the early Christians (which chastity and celibacy are both talked of in high admiration by the early Church Fathers as well) that chastity or celibacy are wrong or evil. We are all called to serve Christ differently, and if one is called to lead a celibate life it should not be looked down upon or said that that vocation is not the will of God because the Gospels, St. Paul, and the early Church tell us differently.

God bless you!

In Jesus and Mary,
Marie

[Piamaria]

On SUnday I visited QUeen of Peace Dominican Monastery (cloistered) and was privileged to visit with them and ask for their prayers as I begin my non-cloistered religious life. Budge honey, you are clueless. Their faith and joy lit up that monastery.
Why don't you just accept that there are things you, like the rest of us, just don't understand. AND let it go.

[Budge]

Staretz.

I watched the Monastery show.

To be honest, here were some of things I saw...

1. The Abbot talked like he was a Jedi master, if one didnt know that was a catholic monastery, he could have ran a Buddhist one and been perfectly fine. He seemed to have mastered the art of Zen Koans. I saw a lot of meditation being taught in that place but very little Christianity.

2. The second in command, well, besides having a very "prim" personality, I found him to an extremely effeminate person. This is not to say what he is guilty of or not. He seemed more busy pushing senseless rules then anything else. The one guy only had one leg and they kept making him stand. Anyone on a prothesis would be in horrible pain. The guy was a Marine so you think hed say anything about the pain making him sit? Probably not.

3. The daily schedule seemed workable except perhaps the grinding hours of rote prayer...they seemed more invested in going within themselves--the false contemplation, rather then true Biblical prayer or Bible study.

4. Those young men were probably turned off of what they thought was "Christianity" for good. Most of them ended up leaving. Who could blame them? I believe BOREDOM led most of them to leave not even denial of hedonistic pleasures. True worship of God is not boring but it definitely was in that place.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1221104' date='Mar 28 2007, 09:25 AM']Staretz.

I watched the Monastery show.

To be honest, here were some of things I saw...

1. The Abbot talked like he was a Jedi master, if one didnt know that was a catholic monastery, he could have ran a Buddhist one and been perfectly fine. He seemed to have mastered the art of Zen Koans. I saw a lot of meditation being taught in that place but very little Christianity.

2. The second in command, well, besides having a very "prim" personality, I found him to an extremely effeminate person. This is not to say what he is guilty of or not. He seemed more busy pushing senseless rules then anything else. The one guy only had one leg and they kept making him stand. Anyone on a prothesis would be in horrible pain. The guy was a Marine so you think hed say anything about the pain making him sit? Probably not.

3. The daily schedule seemed workable except perhaps the grinding hours of rote prayer...they seemed more invested in going within themselves--the false contemplation, rather then true Biblical prayer or Bible study.

4. Those young men were probably turned off of what they thought was "Christianity" for good. Most of them ended up leaving. Who could blame them? I believe BOREDOM led most of them to leave not even denial of hedonistic pleasures. True worship of God is not boring but it definitely was in that place.[/quote]

Speaking of Jedi masters, Yoda might say of you, "there is much anger in this one."

What are you so pissed off at, Budge? As an excellent priest I once knew put it, if you get upset at your butcher, you don't stop eating meat. So, something happened with you and the Catholic Church. Deal with it. Don't come in here throwing bombs to somehow try and justify your choices and the decisions you made. Who are you really trying to convince?

[Budge]

While monasteries and cloistered convents are based on false aseticism at least on the individual level on the corporate level they do what seems to be a lot of wealth. I guess all that free labor adds up to something after awhile.


So how "poor" they are up is up to debate. OLAM has the shrine literally covered in GOLD and marble tile. They have these huge buildings, with tiled floors and huge restaurant kitchens even in the middle of nowhere like on that Monastery show. The Abbot had his lavish funiture and they had their Southwest decor.

So being POOR in spiritual and material wealth, sure on one level they are, but DEFINITELY NOT on another. In some ways these nuns have it better then most people in the regular workday world, who have to wrory baout keeping the rent paid and such and eating ramen noodles because they are low on grocery money.

I know what real poverty is, and most of those nuns aint living it. Real poverty is when you dont even own a stove to cook on and rent and food are negotiable. As I told you I see the attraction to that life...except for the false religion, and cult aspect and control, having a ready made community, place to live and no worries about bills sounds absolutely cushy.

Im curious for all the would be nuns here, do you still have to pay the dowry? Or did that go by in years past?

[quote]
Christ was celibate. It it were such a great evil to remain pure and chaste would Jesus, who is perfect, have been celibate? But yet, he was. That says something. Being celibate and totally chaste and pure is a beautiful thing, for Jesus was totally and chaste and pure and lived a celibate life. Can following the example of Christ be a wrong thing?[/quote]Jesus stayed celibate because He was GOD.

Now I know your church thinks everyone whose had sex, even happily married people who have followed all biblical rules regarding sex, are somehow lower down the "holiness" totem pole....but thats not someting I agree with.

There again, your church with this glorifcation of celibacy, has built a priesthood that has been plagued by sexual problems, one of which I think is based in this teaching...it automatically makes the pool of candidates more likely to be sexual ambivalents and homosexuals.

The Bible just makes it clear that some people will not marry, and some will forgo marriage for even other reasons like preacying the gospels, but it doesnt say anywhere, now build a house and put a bunch of single people who want to stay celibate forever in it.
[quote]

On SUnday I visited QUeen of Peace Dominican Monastery (cloistered) and was privileged to visit with them and ask for their prayers as I begin my non-cloistered religious life. Budge honey, you are clueless. Their faith and joy lit up that monastery.
Why don't you just accept that there are things you, like the rest of us, just don't understand. AND let it go.[/quote]

Who said they would all be miserable and crying their eyes out? Even Hare Krishnas look "happy" Actually I know for a fact that while one is in the convent, oens attitude is assessed night and day. If you were sitting their bawling your eyes out, and or depressed, Im sure youd get called into the Superiors office for a dressing down.

If youre were a visitor, you think they were going to tell you their troubles, no theyd put their best face forward.

Actually if I visited a monstery theyd probably throw me out within 2 days for bringing KJV Bibles with me and preaching the true gospel.

The one where you dont have to work and suffer your way there, and its all dependent on Jesus Christ.

[Budge]

[quote]
Speaking of Jedi masters, Yoda might say of you, "there is much anger in this one."[/quote]Actually when I was watching that show with my husband, i kept cracking up, changing that dudes sentences to Yoda Speak, and IT MATCHED exactly.

LOLOL


[quote]
What are you so pissed off at, Budge?[/quote]

Ah the psychological analysis...

Actually I had plenty of friends and others in my last Catholic Church, including position as RE teacher. No one "pissed" me off.

If I show any anger at all, it is righteous anger at a church teaching FALSE things to people leading them to hell.

[quote]As an excellent priest I once knew put it, if you get upset at your butcher, you don't stop eating meat. So, something happened with you and the Catholic Church. Deal with it. Don't come in here throwing bombs to somehow try and justify your choices and the decisions you made. Who are you really trying to convince?[/quote]

Not many people are called to warn people out of cults.

One thing the cult members will ALWAYS say is the problem is with the MESSENGER rather then listening to the message.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1221113' date='Mar 28 2007, 09:48 AM']Not many people are called to warn people out of cults.

One thing the cult members will ALWAYS say is the problem is with the MESSENGER rather then listening to the message.[/quote]

You seem to think that if folks here get annoyed or upset with you it [i]must[/i] be because you're shining the Light of Truth into our poor, dark, papist places.

Didja ever stop to think that it might just be because you're annoying and upsetting?

[Budge]

wow you seem really intent on changing the subject to ME.

Im not forcing you to read any of my threads.

You seem to get very personally bent out of shape just over someone disagreeing with you.


Thats a problem.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1221133' date='Mar 28 2007, 01:14 PM']wow you seem really intent on changing the subject to ME.

Im not forcing you to read any of my threads.

You seem to get very personally bent out of shape just over someone disagreeing with you.
Thats a problem.[/quote]I wonder how you would react if someone constantly claimed that Budgianity was a cult.

[Starets]

[quote name='Budge' post='1221104' date='Mar 28 2007, 11:25 AM']Staretz.

I watched the Monastery show.

To be honest, here were some of things I saw...

1. The Abbot talked like he was a Jedi master, if one didnt know that was a catholic monastery, he could have ran a Buddhist one and been perfectly fine. He seemed to have mastered the art of Zen Koans. I saw a lot of meditation being taught in that place but very little Christianity.

2. The second in command, well, besides having a very "prim" personality, I found him to an extremely effeminate person. This is not to say what he is guilty of or not. He seemed more busy pushing senseless rules then anything else. The one guy only had one leg and they kept making him stand. Anyone on a prothesis would be in horrible pain. The guy was a Marine so you think hed say anything about the pain making him sit? Probably not.

3. The daily schedule seemed workable except perhaps the grinding hours of rote prayer...they seemed more invested in going within themselves--the false contemplation, rather then true Biblical prayer or Bible study.

4. Those young men were probably turned off of what they thought was "Christianity" for good. Most of them ended up leaving. Who could blame them? I believe BOREDOM led most of them to leave not even denial of hedonistic pleasures. True worship of God is not boring but it definitely was in that place.[/quote]

I was there, Budge. For six short weeks. I didn't just watch a show on the telly. I have lived that life. That is what you get when you concentrate on externals.

1. I have heard the Abbot speak too. His homilies and also his commentaries on the Rule were Christocentric. He also had a great joy in what he was doing. What he was doing was serving the community he has been called to serve and serving God as well.

2. Prior Christian? Effeminate? Give thou me a break

3. The schedule is indeed workable, if relentless. I see nothing wrong with rote prayer. It gives me a chance to concentrate on the words and whatn they mean, not just stumble over the words and juswannas. I find it to be a very spiritually enriching experience. I had plenty of time for Bible study and lectio. An hour of it a day set aside as part of the schedule. I wasn't bored at all.

4. Only one person left, and that was because he didn't want to have to face the community after stealing from them. Again. Not only that, they are all still in contact with the community. One of them has even moved closer. maybe I will see that one if I make a return visit this summer for another month.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Budge' post='1221104' date='Mar 28 2007, 09:25 AM']Staretz.

I watched the Monastery show.

To be honest, here were some of things I saw...

1. The Abbot talked like he was a Jedi master, if one didnt know that was a catholic monastery, he could have ran a Buddhist one and been perfectly fine. He seemed to have mastered the art of Zen Koans. I saw a lot of meditation being taught in that place but very little Christianity.

2. The second in command, well, besides having a very "prim" personality, I found him to an extremely effeminate person. This is not to say what he is guilty of or not. He seemed more busy pushing senseless rules then anything else. The one guy only had one leg and they kept making him stand. Anyone on a prothesis would be in horrible pain. The guy was a Marine so you think hed say anything about the pain making him sit? Probably not.

3. The daily schedule seemed workable except perhaps the grinding hours of rote prayer...they seemed more invested in going within themselves--the false contemplation, rather then true Biblical prayer or Bible study.

4. Those young men were probably turned off of what they thought was "Christianity" for good. Most of them ended up leaving. Who could blame them? I believe BOREDOM led most of them to leave not even denial of hedonistic pleasures. True worship of God is not boring but it definitely was in that place.[/quote]

You know, I don't know of this show, but I studied at a monastery for a year. While some monks may be a little off of true spirituality, I think that's a very crude judgment to make. How many monks have you known? I've known about 30 Benedictines, 5 Franciscans, 1 Dominican, 2 Intercessors of the Lamb, and a number of others from various orders, male and female. You say that true worship of God is not boring. I thought that my first day of silent retreat was boring, but afterward, I found out that it was anything but boring. Not only was I growing closer to Christ, but I could feel Him living in me and I was at peace for the first time in my life. You don't know what Catholic spirituality is. Please don't judge it by the way it's shown on television, of all places.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Budge' post='1221113' date='Mar 28 2007, 09:48 AM']Not many people are called to warn people out of cults.

One thing the cult members will ALWAYS say is the problem is with the MESSENGER rather then listening to the message.[/quote]


[quote name='Budge' post='1221133' date='Mar 28 2007, 11:14 AM']wow you seem really intent on changing the subject to ME.

Im not forcing you to read any of my threads.

You seem to get very personally bent out of shape just over someone disagreeing with you.
Thats a problem.[/quote]

No, YOU claimed to be a messenger, a Johanna the Baptist, if you will, i.e. YOU changed the subject to YOURSELF.

It's not about you, Budge, it's about the truth. If you went into a church and spat on the altar, and folks objected, would you claim, "hey, you must have a problem with me." What I, anyway, have a problem with is your incessant attacks on Catholicism that seem to serve no other purpose than fulfilling some need that YOU have. I mean, c'mon, do you honestly think that you're going to win anyone to your point of view with your in-your-face-my-way-or-the-highway approach?

[Budge]

[quote]o, YOU claimed to be a messenger, a Johanna the Baptist,[/quote]

Where did I ever claim to be Johanna the Baptist?

I know you folks arent into the direct evangelization thing as much, but Im just some fundie lady on a message board thats it.

This is a [b]DEBATE[/b] board is it not?

Why do you have your knickers in a twist over someone DISAGREEING WITH YOU?